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Discussion in 'Human Potential, Self Discovery' started by michaelangelo, May 13, 2019.
Interesting video about what happens when we "die".
I tried to take it seriously, I really really did, but clocks stopping and smoke rising ... it's all a bit too woo for me, sorry.
Thanks very much for posting that. I watched it all the way through, despite initial misgivings.
This is a man passing on his research findings of various studies. One comment he made was that one study could not be replicated today because 98% of the reports of NDEs were from people who had never read about others' NDEs. (Note that he uses "NDE" to include people who weren't dying -- cardiac arrest etc -- what we might call going exterior etc on a very recent thread).
He did a lot of research interviewing carers in hospices, because at the time he couldn't get it past the institutions' ethics committees to interview the patients themselves. It was fairly common for there to be a sort of standard "process" the dying people went through, starting a couple of weeks before they left, involving (spiritual) visits from (dead) relatives and personal visits to "the other side". At some point it would hit the person hard that this was it, they would shortly die, they would have to let go of every part of their human life -- possessions, relationships, etc.
Since many of us on ESMB are getting on a bit, and although we may not be about to die personally we may know people who will, it's useful information to have, well worth spending the hour watching this video.
Fair enough. But this is a researcher passing on the findings from hundreds, thousands of cases. Not a personal anecdote of what one person perceived, like we post on ESMB. The clock-stopping thing? I don't know, did he say what percentage that was?
This brings to mind what I say about Dr. Michael Newton's life-between-lives research as described in http://www.forum.exscn.net/threads/life-between-lives-—-dr-michael-newton.11252/. Namely that he describes the commonalities in his research in over 7,000 cases, not one man's personal revelations.
Actually, I'm with you Paul.
In my view, I found this fellow to be a brilliant, ethical and honest researcher.
I found it both funny and telling that in his earlier years his view was that all the NDE experience woo, woo was all being reported from California and was BUNKUM. But then, as various events in his medical practice occurred, he began to have to investigate WTF was going on!
Thus, what he has reported in this video is what the hell has been found as a result of investigating all aspects of the dying and NDE event, including not only those who died or went through NDE's but also those present when these folks did their trick and those folks who are relatives or otherwise were close friends.
To me, it represents a brilliant and accurate investigative report.
But then I am prejudiced . . . having myself "died and come back" since the birth of this body
This link is to a more formal presentation by him where he uses some graphics.
Peter Fenwick on "Experiences surrounding near-death and dying"
I just got the feeling that he saw what he wanted to see in all of this.
Funnily enough, Richard Feynman reported that a clock stopped at precisely the moment his wife died in hospital.
I don't believe in past lives, reincarnation, exteriorisation, ghosts in the machine or pretty much any of the mumbo-jumbo that's discussed here. I have no doubt that those who say they've experienced such things are sincere in their conviction that they've lived before or are three feet back of their head or whatever, and the fact that I put this stuff down to hallucination or wishful thinking is just going to be rejected by such people as materialist and reductionist I'm sure. That's the way it is, but after 73 years living on this planet I'm not going to change my mind now.
My parents will be passing on soon and an uncle passed on two days ago. I found this research both intelligent and useful. IMO people need to know that die-ing dosen't have to be anything that is feared but moreover a new beginning.
That's interesting Roger. Do you care to share your experience about have died and come back ?.
If believing that death is a 'new beginning' gives you peace of mind then that's all well and good, but there is absolutely no scientific proof whatsoever that there is an 'afterlife'. End of.
Adding: Where does this 'fear' you speak of come into it? If you are frightened of dying, then believing there is life after death won't help much, you'll still have to face death first won't you? Conversely, once you're dead there isn't much to be frightened of is there, I mean, you're dead, aincha?
I wrote about it some ten years ago here on ESMB . . . in the days when we openly discussed stuff like this
Here's the link . . . note following comments by folks who had processed the parents involved.
Umm, ESMB, has dropped some stuff as it had morphed, but the link above does not take you to the actual post as it did years ago . . . it take you to the start of the thread it appeared on . . . checking just now, go to page 10 (on the setting I have) . . . the following validation posts by others are missing . . .
Well, Strattie, my man . . . you are precisely right and correct. This stuff is too woo for you
No worries, Mate.
I have no problem with your conviction but do however have one question, what is an example of some scientific proof that would be possible and sufficient for anyone?
We're only talking memories here and how does one prove a series of recurrent memories?
Like I said earlier, some have had spiritual experiences and some never will and for good reason, reasons beyond our grasp & understanding.
We all have our individual essences and natures for whatever reason and Volkswagens will never sprout wings and circle the globe but birds will.
Perhaps some souls were created as "cosmic recyclables" while others came from "one and done" batches. Why that would be the case is entirely beyond my reasoning and security clearance.
And, truly, your opinion is just as valid. However, when you say "absolutely no scientific proof whatsoever" that goes both ways. Scientifically, reincarnation, OOB, paranormal experiences and other "spiritual" things are neither proven nor disproven by science. In my view, such matters lie, by definition, outside of the physical universe. So, expecting physical universe science to prove or disprove such matters is just silly -- by definition.
I don't claim to believe all that stuff, but I don't claim anyone has disproven the stuff either. Personally, I like a world where some of those things just might be true.
Meteorology describes what causes lightening bolts in the sky to occur but does it disprove that a god Zeus is behind it?
Would you believe in the existence of the god Zeus or is the meteorology explanation sufficient?
Or would you believe that maybe the god Zeus is one step above the meteorology explanation and both are true?
In your opinion, has the science of meteorology proved that the god Zeus has nothing to do with the occurrence of lightening bolts in the sky?
In my opinion, ALL religious dogma is bad, wrong and false.
Quickly, some raw thoughts
I didn't watch the video and I am biaised about the subject having myself gone through a process of dying (50 hours) 10 years ago.
I have been both conscient, super lucide and unconscient. They rushed me in op room just at the moment my hart was going to give up..I heard them mention8ng ou and felt it and told ou des collapsimg...I clearly recall it and the conversation with the doctors and surgeons (3) and when they panic...It was actually exactly like in grey's anatomy when they are about to loose one.
5 minutes later i had the mask on my face and was muzzeled and sent to vistaril land...
I clearly recall the " world" I travelled when I was previously unconscious and my body giving up. This was a beautiful place, like what we may call "paradise"
But I think, this world was made of what, at the time, was meaningful to me, the most profound spiritual and aesthetic experience and teaching of a lifetime.
Each night and morning I think about it and try to recreate this state of total well beingness and beauty, beyond any word and description.
But , sincerely, the pseudo enlighted independants and it's who think they are knowledgeable and must guide the thetan are totally wrong..it's pure bs..
I think this is a normal process of life and either your mental state will bring you in beautiful serene places or in fearfull places ( what is called either paradise or hell but are in fact mental projections and images ..same as in dreams) It doesn't require any intervention...the person must go through it.
To me it is as simple as that. And since this experience of mine , I have been aside 4 dear ones in the process of dying and I dis no intervention appart from holding hand, put classical music as demanded, and help mom to feel secure, to give up...and fly...
As some of you, and despite my long time buddhism practice, I don't have a clue if there is something after death. I must be humble and admit that if there is no realm of peace and wellness, I feel life is the most horrible thing though since many humans are living a hell on earth.
I like to think that there might an evolution of states of Beingness from one realm to another allowing mind and awareness evolution that goes beyond this dimension of life.
Science has proven, with the discovery of the content of black holes, that there are other dimensional universes and parralel life...that may be a beginning of one possible answer.
However I don't believe to an identity who reincarnate as Scientologist do. When the "I am a big thetan" dies...it dies...memory has to do with brain which too dies ..
One thing I feel might be true is the encountering of "God" or the "life essence" since I think I bad seen through a window of it, not sure though.
Discussing life after death implies to take account of other related topics in the fields of religious beliefs, science, personnal experiences, psychology, neurobiology, medicine, etc...
When you think of the billions of people who have lived and died here on Earth, then you might be forgiven for believing that there would be more 'evidence' of one individual living consecutive existences in different bodies (which is what most of us are talking about I think) than the few sensationalised examples we have all read about. What form this 'evidence' would take for me would be that practically everyone would remember who they were last lifetime and not just the handful of cases I've just mentioned. Of course, there may be some reason why these memories are lost (perhaps these memories are stored in the brain and the brain dies but the 'life force' moves on) who knows? And that's the point. WHO KNOWS?
All I know is that the past lives would have to have been lived elsewhere until recently as for most of human history the earths population was in the low millions though it's closing in on 8 billion now:
"In demographics, the world population is the total number of humans currently living, and was estimated to have reached 7.7 billion people as of April 2019. It took over 200,000 years of human history for the world's population to reach 1 billion; and only 200 years more to reach 7 billion."