What Scientologists really believe

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by Disinfected, Jan 30, 2013.

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  1. Disinfected

    Disinfected Patron Meritorious

    If you want an overview of what Scientologists believe in their hearts, watch this oldie-goldie. Force yourself to continue to the end of at least the first part if you do not already know this stuff and want a look inside the mind of a Scientologist, Independent or not. I see very little there that is not consistent with viewpoints I was exposed to many times in my Scientology career (except for maybe the first minute or so with the time crap). It apparently goes on forever but I have only included the first two parts below.

    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  2. MissWog

    MissWog Silver Meritorious Patron

    Thanks for posting these! I've read conflicting comments in various places about this guy and the validity of what he says... It'll be awesome to see what the ESMB experts say!
    thanks again!
  3. PTS

    PTS Elliott

    I have a very difficult time with Fishman. Most of the worthwhile thoughts he has are overshadowed by his obvious lunacy.
    Nevertheless he clearly was brutalized by $cientology, as we who found the will to escape all were, and for that I regard him as a kindred spirit.
  4. Disinfected

    Disinfected Patron Meritorious

    Well, I am not going to comment on Fishman's sanity or stability; that is not my point here. My point is that he evidently bought into the entire Scientology belief system - hook, line, and sinker. Everything he says in the first part (and I admit, I only made into the second part before becoming bored with it) is straight Scientology cosmology. Except for the time bit in the first minute. I have never heard anything like that before but it is possible he picked that up from Hubbard also.

    I present this because you never hear a Scientologist go into depth on their belief system but this is it, the real deal. It is also interesting that he had no experience with the OT Levels and was ignorant of Xenu yet he still had picked up all this cosmology. This stuff permeates Hubbard lectures and, if you buy into Hubbard, then you buy into this.

    To me, this is akin to some mad bomber's manifesto wherein he justifies his every action with conspiracy theories right out of the fringe ultraconservative playbook; the stuff they talk to each other about but keep on the down-low from outsiders. The bomber's madness does not change the fact that he is spouting "canonical" fringe ultraconservative cosmology and it gives us a look inside that world that we might otherwise not have.

    When the Scientologist is alone in a room with a Sea Org recruiter; when he is being "hard-sold" to sell his house and cash in his 401K to buy OT Levels, this is the sort of atmosphere that prevails and this is the sort of "reasoning" that drives the discussion.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  5. Infinite

    Infinite Crusader

    Guess where it comes from . . .

    L Ron Hubbard - Aides Conference, 2 November 1969

    L Ron Hubbard - Ron's Journal, 20 September 1967
  6. Disinfected

    Disinfected Patron Meritorious

    Well, there is that, too, to an extent but when I say "When the Scientologist is alone in a room with a Sea Org recruiter; when he is being "hard-sold" to sell his house and cash in his 401K to buy OT Levels, this is the sort of atmosphere that prevails and this is the sort of "reasoning" that drives the discussion." I am referring to the cosmology that Fishman is spouting in the video. I should have swapped the last two paragraphs to keep it clear what I was referring to.
  7. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    One of the reasons why Hubbard wrote the 'Manual on Dissemination of Material' in 1955, and the 'PR Series' in the early 1970s, was to ensure that Scientologists didn't blurt out this stuff to "beings at lower awareness levels."

    Even when Scientologists forsake "Policy," and admit Hubbard's "imperfections," they're still stuck with this stuff: Hubbard talking tech.

    Then they have a choice: strip away even more of Scientology by stripping away big chucks of the "tech," at which point it's ridiculous for them to continue calling themselves Scientologists; or, start spinning (PRing and double-talking) and going on about "What's true for you," etc., and saying things like, "You took thaaaat literally?!" and "That's a metaphor," etc., etc.

    It's almost impossible to be a Scientologist and not be dishonest about Scientology.
  8. Infinite

    Infinite Crusader

    Well, sort of. As per L Ron Hubbard's instructions, even before the Scientologist enters the Registrar's boiler room, there has been a careful, frog-in-a-pot preparation when the crazy is meticulously implanted, the Auditor's have provided information on the individual "buttons", and the hapless Scientologist par-boiled and probably grinning from ear-to-ear with the wonders of post-hypnotic euphoria. Steven Fishman's "cosmology" is the end result of that Standard Scientology process, plus all the Standard Tech Fair Game and litigation measures he was subjected to. Yet, despite it all, he survived and delivered confirmation of Xenu.
  9. Disinfected

    Disinfected Patron Meritorious

    I am pointedly trying not to mock Fishman as an individual. The cosmology he is spouting is shared by every "true believer" Scientologist. That is my point and we are in agreement as to its source being Standard Scientology; I think the Fair Game and litigation had nothing to do with it as a source.
  10. Sierra_Sage

    Sierra_Sage Patron

    I can't bring myself to watch more than a couple of minutes of this.
    I have been out for twenty years and it just makes me CRINGE!!!
    WTF WAS I THINKING BACK THEN??? (Oh yea, I wasn't.)
  11. ChurchOfCylontology

    ChurchOfCylontology Patron with Honors

    Don't cringe...you could be this guy:

    (this video cracks me up on a regular basis....it's probably good therapy whenever one starts to question why they were abused by a mind trap)
  12. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien


    So that's OT-9. :itstrue:

    JB :coolwink:
  13. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    In the first video posted, Fishman says that you don't your eyes to see and you can have 360 degree vision all around you.

    Then why the hell is he wearing glasses? :duh:
  14. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    Fishman is a 'problem' of sorts.. He's obviously nuts.. BUT! - He doesn't say anything in these interviews that I haven't heard similar from Hubbard or other 'mesmerized' scientologists.. Heh.. And I find it quite humorous that: Here we have a guy who believes ALL the Scientology stuff and then Scientology's PR officially labels him insane!!?

    Fishman also wrote The Lonesome Squirrel which is a fun read. It is considered full of lies and fiction.. But, it IS Scientology's OSA who works the hardest to convince us so.

  15. PTS

    PTS Elliott

    What amazes me is that someone took the time to create ten hours worth of it.
    The tune appears as background for Jackass type clips often enough. It's kind of catchy in a bizarre Benny Hill sort of way.
  16. LongTimeGone

    LongTimeGone Silver Meritorious Patron

    Listening to these two parts of the interview, reminds me of spending time with reges who have never experienced auditing but who will tell you how wonderful it all is.

    He's done the objectives! Whoopie. :duh:

    Expert who'd never heard of Zenu - It's in OTIII - Oh well you can't confront that, you'd do a bunk.

    Yes, OSA is right; he's mad - But then so are they.

  17. JBWriter

    JBWriter Happy Sapien

    I watched all of Mr. Fishman deposition videos that were available on the net via YouTube before searching/finding the recommended sites/books to read about CO$. And as I read Madman or Messiah, A Piece of Blue Sky, and quite a few court docs related to the McPherson case(s), I still had Mr. Fishman's image in my head; to me, he was a Scientologist because he believed so fervently in Scientology.


    Then I saw a Tory Magoo video and the stark differences between the two made it tempting to assume that a Scientologist probably didn't get too many invitations to parties, but that once out, a person's 'personality' returned and the party invitations poured in thereafter. Tempting, yes, but I couldn't reconcile Mr. Fishman ever turning into Tory Magoo. That was problematic.

    That's when I hunted down more videos to see what a 'real' Scientologist looked/sounded like. Immediate Conclusion: There's only one Mr. Fishman. :thumbsup: Secondary Conclusion: There are a number of very nice, very smart people who were involved with CO$ and they were robbed. And ransacked. And honest. And brave.

    What is, and remains, unknown to me and the rest of the non-scio world, is an available sample of writings/videos which illustrate the differences/similarities which exist among practicing members of CO$. Do they look/sound like Mr. Fishman? If so, do they believe as he does? Many? Most? Some? Very few? The COB of CO$ expects me to take his word for it - that if I want to learn about/connect with a practicing scientologist I can pay him for the privilege. He also wants me to believe every single person who says/does anything which questions this organization's policies & practices is a liar/psycho/apostate. But there's only one Mr. Fishman. And one Tory Magoo. And one Marty Rathbun. And one David Mayo. And they're all out here willingly sharing their knowledge and experience with me and the rest of the world.


    When Infinite posts that it is this mindset that exists within a room in an org where money/obedience is demanded, I believe Infinite is trying to show me something important, and I appreciate his/her effort. However, I also believe David Miscavige and the entire management staff of CO$ are wholly at fault for denying CO$ members their right to express themselves, to interact with the very world they are ostensibly working to save, and, too, for denying my right to learn about people who might teach me a valuable lesson or two.

    I've learned more than two right here.

    Thanks, ESMB.

  18. secretiveoldfag

    secretiveoldfag Silver Meritorious Patron

    Re: Giving religion a bad name

    Another view of Scientology and religion in general.


  19. SchwimmelPuckel

    SchwimmelPuckel Genuine Meatball

    If we're being bombastically literal, yes.. But there are many scientologists who are just as 'mesmerized' (brainwashed) who sounds like him..

    And then there must be many, while still being scientologists, who DO NOT believe in all the airheaded crap. I was such a one.. Well, given the quality and profusion of Hubbard's crap, I can only think there are many... These people will sound a lot saner, but they are 'traitors' in 'Doubt' according to Scientology doctrine, and they live in constant fear of being exposed and Declared Supressive Persons.

    So why in hell don't they get the hell away at once? - I'm still working on the answer to that. :screwy:
  20. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    How many people have you audited on Dianetics?

    For most pcs, traveling back trillions of years was commonplace.

    When in session, Hubbard's cosmology and universal history, to the extent that they knew it, was their cosmology and universal history.

    Out of session, talking to a non-Scientologist acquaintance, the same people would say that Scientology was about things such as "ARC," etc., and only let slip tiny pieces of Scientological universal history if the person was ready for it.

    Fishman has some of his own special weirdnesses, such as his idea that he's the biological father of Jesus Christ, but the guy reminds me of some of the original Free Zone people - now called Ron's Orgers - in that they have no protective PR veneer. They're like little kids who just talk and say what's on their minds un-self-consciously.

    Both Fishman and the old time Ron's Orgers had out-PR.

    Fishman even called the the non-Scientologists, to whom he was speaking, "Wogs." That's a no no. The use of "wog" in front of "wogs" or anywhere "wogs" might see it, is bad PR; and when asked about the use of the term, any PR-conscious Scientologist would know to distance himself from and reject the term.

    There are many other examples.

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