Marty Rathbun nearly murdered in 1978

[WildKat]

I don't think this story got enough notice. I was wondering about this while watching the ID profile on Marty which aired last night and which got very little discussion. The one-hour program never mentioned this little chapter in Marty's SO history.

Anyway, when Marty was a new SO recruit in 1978 at "Big Blue" he was witness to a murder and nearly murdered himself, according to Jesse Prince's story here:

http://www.xenu-directory.net/mirrors/www.whyaretheydead.net/jesse/coletto.html

He then took the gun and pointed it at Marty and started to shoot - click, click, click - no more bullets.

 

[Sindy]

Nothing like a good murder to get your SO career rolling. Good lord.

 

[WildKat]

You gotta wonder:

If John Colletto had been "successful" in shooting Marty back in 1978, can you imagine how much differently the whole cult scenario might have played out? Marty had huge influence on his posts, and when auditing some of the celebs, as well as his influence as Miscavige's right-hand man for many years, as well as his impact on the whole Indie era, and all the hullabaloo that came after. I'm just saying.... he has really been a key player for decades.

 

[MrNobody]

You gotta wonder:

If John Colletto had been "successful" in shooting Marty back in 1978, can you imagine how much differently the whole cult scenario might have played out? Marty had huge influence on his posts, and when auditing some of the celebs, as well as his influence as Miscavige's right-hand man for many years, as well as his impact on the whole Indie era, and all the hullabaloo that came after. I'm just saying.... he has really been a key player for decades.

A big part of the virtual Scientology-puzzle is still a pile of unsorted pieces in my mind, so here's my question:

Was Marty really a big player himself or did he just move someone else's pieces on demand? What of his actions did he really "grow all by himself in his own backyard" and what were the actions of "just another executioner"?

Don't try to find sarcasm or irony, I honestly have these questions.

 

[Bea Kiddo]

A big part of the virtual Scientology-puzzle is still a pile of unsorted pieces in my mind, so here's my question:

Was Marty really a big player himself or did he just move someone else's pieces on demand? What of his actions did he really "grow all by himself in his own backyard" and what were the actions of "just another executioner"?

Don't try to find sarcasm or irony, I honestly have these questions.

When I was a Case Supervisor at CC Int, and Marty came around and said "boo", we jumped. He was DM's right hand man, yes, but also on his own he directed some things. I believe he was truly made a puppet for DM, but there were matters that Marty dealt with that did not get onto DM's plate (such as the 8 month pregnant woman who tried to kill herself at CC, I was taking a bit of direction from Marty, but that had nothing to do with DM).

 

[Sindy]

A big part of the virtual Scientology-puzzle is still a pile of unsorted pieces in my mind, so here's my question:

Was Marty really a big player himself or did he just move someone else's pieces on demand? What of his actions did he really "grow all by himself in his own backyard" and what were the actions of "just another executioner"?

Don't try to find sarcasm or irony, I honestly have these questions.

Setting aside that ultimately we are all responsible for our own acts (if I kill someone after taking LSD, I'm still going to prison), I see that all acts while under the influence of Hubbard's salvage-Earth-or-you're-all-doomed game as moving someone else's pieces on demand. That's to say, Marty may have cooked up lots of plots to kill people while on LSD, so to speak, I don't know.

I think the proof is in what the person does and becomes after leaving that influence. I would like to see Tom Cruise examine himself and his part in all of this like Marty has done. Marty has been courageous and in my opinion exceptionally so. Tom Cruise, et al have not.

I believe Miscavige would be the same bully outside of all the cult influences (even his own mother called him Little Hitler) and therefore his own thoughts and actions naturally align with Hubbard's ideas on how to handle enemies, etc. so he rose to the top and until now, took safe haven in hiding his true nature behind Hubbard's dictates.

Miscavige stayed and continued to torture people. Marty blew and did not. We're all capable, apparently, of some pretty nasty stuff under group-think and influenced by powerful, instilled beliefs (Stanford Prison Experiment, Milgram Experiment).

Footnote: I would like to preemptively handle the idea that I am excusing, apologizing for, or sympathizing with Marty. This is a detached observation.

 

[MrNobody]

Setting aside that ultimately we are all responsible for our own acts (if I kill someone after taking LSD, I'm still going to prison), I see that all acts while under the influence of Hubbard's salvage-Earth-or-you're-all-doomed game as moving someone else's pieces on demand. That's to say, Marty may have cooked up lots of plots to kill people while on LSD, so to speak, I don't know.

I think the proof is in what the person does and becomes after leaving that influence. I would like to see Tom Cruise examine himself and his part in all of this like Marty has done. Marty has been courageous and in my opinion exceptionally so. Tom Cruise, et al have not.

I believe Miscavige would be the same bully outside of all the cult influences (even his own mother called him Little Hitler) and therefore his own thoughts and actions naturally align with Hubbard's ideas on how to handle enemies, etc. so he rose to the top and until now, took safe haven in hiding his true nature behind Hubbard's dictates.

Miscavige stayed and continued to torture people. Marty blew and did not. We're all capable, apparently, of some pretty nasty stuff under group-think and influenced by powerful, instilled beliefs (Stanford Prison Experiment, Milgram Experiment).

Footnote: I would like to preemptively handle the idea that I am excusing, apologizing for, or sympathizing with Marty. This is a detached observation.

Well, I believe that Marty removing pages from the baby-watch-protocol of Lisa McPherson was probably his own idea and not directly ordered by DM, but the "pink legs" quote comes to mind: "Do what's necessary, no matter how illegal it is, but make sure that I can't be held responsible for that."

Yeah, I know, that's not what the quote says, but it's what's readable between the lines, IMO. So, when DM says "Do what's necessary" and some Scilon goes and kills some SP because of that, he's basically doin' exactly what DM ordered without him ever having ordered it.

I believe quite a few more "pink legs" could be found in the cult if more people decided to speak out in greater detail.

EDIT:
IOW and IMO, there's still way too much "wiggle room" for the higher-ups in the cult.

 

[WildKat]

Well, I believe that Marty removing pages from the baby-watch-protocol of Lisa McPherson was probably his own idea and not directly ordered by DM, but the "pink legs" quote comes to mind: "Do what's necessary, no matter how illegal it is, but make sure that I can't be held responsible for that."

Yeah, I know, that's not what the quote says, but it's what's readable between the lines, IMO. So, when DM says "Do what's necessary" and some Scilon goes and kills some SP because of that, he's basically doin' exactly what DM ordered without him ever having ordered it.

I believe quite a few more "pink legs" could be found in the cult if more people decided to speak out in greater detail.

EDIT:
IOW and IMO, there's still way too much "wiggle room" for the higher-ups in the cult.

Yup...I bet we would be shocked at some of the info being kept under wraps.

 

[degraded being]

Yup...I bet we would be shocked at some of the info being kept under wraps.

When things get shook up for organizations which have been corrupt, including religious, political and business/financial institutions, there is often a progression of relative shock value in the things that get shook out. There is often a point where something more rotten than anything already known falls and lands in full view.

I am wondering if that is going to happen - with the scientology shaking up that is going to continue all through 2015 and probably beyond.

 

[JustSheila]

Mmmm... Marty's version probably has plenty of poetic license.

Still, I was at Big Blue at the time and heard the story from my Security Guard sweetie at the time, who was on duty and witnessed what happened then.

There are a few details Marty didn't mention.

One is that Marty was assigned to guard Diane and pick her up and take her home because of her ex-husband's threat. He wanted to play hero though and catch John, so trolled around the block slowly trying to get John to come out, using Diane as bait. Perhaps he didn't take the threat seriously; it's not like there were a lot of shooting murders by ex-staff. Marty was indirectly responsible for Diane's death and he knows it.

So were all the SO Members at the time in the GO and who knew about John's threat and were in a position to do something aabout it - none of these people reported the threat to the police or Joe would have been apprehended earlier. He was reported to have been staying just down the road at a local hotel. Easy for the police to catch him and disarm him, which would have saved Diane's life.

Marty also chased after John. Jeff Porter knocked him down once to stop him. He definitely had the gun aimed at him. I didn't hear anything about it running out of bullets, I heard John turned around with Diane without shooting and Marty chased after him.

I don't know why you'd want to give this story a lot of publicity. It's what stupid people do that take the law in their own hands and don't use the police. Marty was not a hero. Nobody was a hero that day. It was a terrible event that was so badly botched up and mishandled that two people lost their lives.

 

[Sindy]

Mmmm... Marty's version probably has plenty of poetic license.

Still, I was at Big Blue at the time and heard the story from my Security Guard sweetie at the time, who was on duty and witnessed what happened then.

There are a few details Marty didn't mention.

One is that Marty was assigned to guard Diane and pick her up and take her home because of her ex-husband's threat. He wanted to play hero though and catch Joe, so trolled around the block slowly trying to get Joe to come out, using Diane as bait. Perhaps he didn't take the threat seriously; it's not like there were a lot of shooting murders by ex-staff. Marty was indirectly responsible for Diane's death and he knows it.

So were all the SO Members at the time in the GO and who knew about Joe's threat and were in a position to do something aabout it - none of these people reported the threat to the police or Joe would have been apprehended earlier. He was reported to have been staying just down the road at a local hotel. Easy for the police to catch him and disarm him, which would have saved Diane's life.

Marty also chased after Joe. Jeff Porter knocked him down once to stop him. He definitely had the gun aimed at him. I didn't hear anything about it running out of bullets, I heard Joe turned around with Diane without shooting and Marty chased after him.

I don't know why you'd want to give this story a lot of publicity. It's what stupid people do that take the law in their own hands and don't use the police. Marty was not a hero. Nobody was a hero that day. It was a terrible event that was so badly botched up and mishandled that two people lost their lives.

Thanks Sheila. Wow. No words.

 

[TG1]

It's my experience that there are as many different versions of an event like the Diane Coletto murder as there are people opining on it.

 

[JustSheila]

You're welcome, Syn.

I've written a lot more about this earlier because it angered me that Marty would actually have the audacity to brag about it in his book. He's done a lot of good, but he can be a real fuckwit sometimes. This is one of those times. I deleted my earlier entries as it was pretty rough on Marty (Mark) and there were parts I didn't fully understand, either.

I didn't expect Marty to mention that he was driving around and around the complex block for days with Diane to try to draw Joe out. But I can't believe he tried to make himself out as a hero and turn the Colletto's lives into some cheap adventure story to satisfy his own ego and that's really offensive to me. Marty went over the top on this one - even omitting the other two security guards who were there - Jeff Porter and DC, and the fact Andre Tabayoyon came along just seconds after the shooting.

Andre said the shooting happened in the car with Marty. That much is true as witnessed.

However it is viewed, it was a tragedy. John was a known threat and had been blown from the RPF for weeks and the police were not contacted. Two people lost their lives. There are no heros in a tragedy like that.

 

[WildKat]

When things get shook up for organizations which have been corrupt, including religious, political and business/financial institutions, there is often a progression of relative shock value in the things that get shook out. There is often a point where something more rotten than anything already known falls and lands in full view.

I am wondering if that is going to happen - with the scientology shaking up that is going to continue all through 2015 and probably beyond.

I've been thinking these same thoughts...waiting for that other shoe to drop.....

 

[Smurf]

I've written a lot more about this earlier because it angered me that Marty would actually have the audacity to brag about it in his book. He's done a lot of good, but he can be a real fuckwit sometimes. This is one of those times. I deleted my earlier entries as it was pretty rough on Marty (Mark) and there were parts I didn't fully understand, either.

I didn't expect Marty to mention that he was driving around and around the complex block for days with Diane to try to draw Joe out. But I can't believe he tried to make himself out as a hero and turn the Colletto's lives into some cheap adventure story to satisfy his own ego and that's really offensive to me. Marty went over the top on this one - even omitting the other two security guards who were there - Jeff Porter and DC, and the fact Andre Tabayoyon came along just seconds after the shooting.

However it is viewed, it was a tragedy. Joe was a known threat and had been blown from the RPF for weeks and the police were not contacted. Two people lost their lives. There are no heros in a tragedy like that.

The real victim here was Diane Hertz Coletto, who died as result of domestic abuse. Diane was 2nd generation. Her mom may be still alive today.. Polly Schwartz Hertz. I don't find any links to her ever receiving a funeral. Sad.

http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/p/polly-hertz.html

http://www.oursites.org/pollyhertz/myself.htm

http://www.garon.us/images2/obits/Hertz, Diane Hertz Coletto obit 1978.htm

 

[WildKat]

I don't know why you'd want to give this story a lot of publicity. It's what stupid people do that take the law in their own hands and don't use the police. Marty was not a hero. Nobody was a hero that day. It was a terrible event that was so badly botched up and mishandled that two people lost their lives.

Did I or someone else imply Marty was a hero?

Also, I see no reason to bury the story. There was a murder, Marty was there.

 

[Smurf]

Did I or someone else imply Marty was a hero? Also, I see no reason to bury the story. There was a murder, Marty was there.

Tony O wrote about it 2 years ago: http://tonyortega.org/2013/04/05/remembering-diane-colletto-who-would-have-been-60-today

 

[WildKat]

I think the topic is also important because the murderer was a Class VI auditor as well as OTIIIX, whatever "X" means...I think it means Expanded, I don't know if they do that anymore.

 

[JustSheila]

WildKat,

I don't understand your point.

It was a traumatic event. John was a victim of Scientology and RPF abuse, Diane was a victim of domestic abuse and Scientology's lack of using proper police protection.

I'm glad Marty didn't bring it up in his interview. It shows he's come a long way since he wrote his book and spun a hero's story out of it. I respect him for not doing that a second time. He is growing, he is changing.

I can give you plenty of reasons why it shouldn't be brought up, other than to honour the sad memories of Diane and John and their families:

1) Murder investigations can be re-opened and a lot of lies were told to the police. Jeff Porter is still in the Sea Org and was a witness. Andre T spent many years fighting COS and does not want to take on another battle. DC (other witness) is living a life completely out of Scn and would not want any part in it.

2) Marty has enough on his plate.

3) It's sensationalism.

4) Between all of Marty's auditing afterward and the different stories spun about it to the police, I doubt anyone even knows wtf exactly happened anymore.

5) It's just disrespectful to Diane. She was loved. She would not want to be remembered that way.

RIP Diane.

 

[Smurf]

I think the topic is also important because the murderer was a Class VI auditor as well as OTIIIX, whatever "X" means...I think it means Expanded, I don't know if they do that anymore.

OTIIIX is defunct. Bruce Hines explained the old OT IIIX in this answer in an earlier Bunker series Tony Ortega did:

"The other strange thing about Old OT 7 was the point at which one did it. It was not done after Old OT 6. It was done after OT 3. Go figure. Well there was some logic to it. The sequence went OT 3, Old OT 7, OT 3 Expanded, Old OT 4, Old OT 5, Old OT 6.

The terminology was that if one had done Old OT 7, but not the higher OT levels, one was “OT 7 EP.” EP is the abbreviation for End Phenomena. If one then progressed up the levels and completed Old OT 6, one was deemed to be “Full OT 7.” It was at that point that many people had dead-ended before the release of NOTs.

Hubbard’s idea was that after OT 3, the pre-OT would then be in shape to do Old OT 7, and then, with improved ability to project intention, on OT 3 Expanded (simply redoing the steps of OT 3) more body thetans could be located and blown. This was the first time the pre-OT had to go find more BTs after having attested to the fact that there were no more BTs. By the way, an attest in Scientology is a big deal. A “false attest” results in the automatic assignment of the ethics condition of Doubt (see Jeff Hawkins’ excellent account of these conditions)." - Bruce Hines