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ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Emma wrote:

....So sometimes when you think a FZer is proselytizing and you want them to stop, maybe you are seeing a little of your old self in that person and you don't like it....
Nail...Head...Bingo!

In order to become a new self, you often must invalidate your old self. Like a militant ex-smoker, you have to kill off the smoker in yourself, and sometimes you feel you have to kill the smoker in everyone else, too.

Alanzo & I are friends again. :p
It's true! :thumbsup:
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I agree so long as their evangelical posts are picked up and challenged. The danger that I think some of us saw and possibly prompted Emma to start this was that the FZers would get away with spouting their cult dogma without being challenged, especially as they were posting their dogma so often and repeatedly.

Let's hope the FZers have a greater understanding now of the position of many exes, who don't want their unbridled cult PR. The problem is the FZers don't see what they say as dogma! This is the result of Ron's versions of Orwell's "Newspeak" and "Doublethink".

Remember one of Ron's slave-making techniques was to repeat points over and over to wear down resistence - hence KSW on every course, etc. This is another technique he probably learned from Orwell's 1984. "Love is hate", "War is peace" until the party members achieved doublethink. "The tech works" "This is your only chance" etc over and over until even squirrels repeat the dogma "the tech works" while busily altering the tech! :duh:

Yes. It can get tiring going over the same points over and over again with freezoners.

But that's what we have BoldGirl and Pixie for!

They're fresh, and have lots and lots of energy to fight the battle.

We just need to arm them with all the tools they need. And they will arm others, etc., on down the line.

"on down the line..." did you like that?

I got that from L Ron Hubbard.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
There are 4580 threads on ESMB. 70 of these are in "The Freezone" section and 104 in "Independant Field" section. Combined this is 3.8% of the total threads on ESMB. ESMB has been online for 539 days meaning there is an average of 8.5 new threads every day or 59 per week. Of these 59 new threads, an average of 2 are started in the combined FZ and IF sections.

Excellent, thankyou for all your hard work and allowing such discussions to take place. :)

Though I think you can add in almost another 500 threads from the Evaluating/Criticizing Scientology and Scientology Technology sections that end up with FZ invariably being involved in the discussions by their very nature. As they are popular threads, perhaps that is why there could be a perception of FZ or tech advocates posting a lot. :D
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes, but the "tone scale", "Chart of Human Evaluation", and "1.1" did not exist until the drunken, bigamous, wife-beating, child-kidnapper put pen to paper in a drunken haze in Cuba, while avoiding being institutionalised for his psychotic, brutal, perverted behaviour towards his "wife".

So the point I am making is that your quoted LRH terms and ideas about love are unreliable, because the source of them was clearly not released on the subject of love.

I am suggesting a solution to your voiced problem is to drop the concepts that stem from an unreliable, perverted source and then see what you are left with as regards the subject of love. False Data Stripping - if you prefer Scn words for what I am suggesting.

I expect you will find great wisdom in the Bible and the Greeks on the subject, and maybe your would not have a problem on the subject of love if you let go of the ideas on it from a perverted source.

I think there are many non-LRH english words for "love" and it will never be defeated by a wife-beating pervert!

References to help let go of Ron's ideas on love are LRH's "admissions" and Sara Northrup's submission to the divorce court

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3324774/Admissions-of-LRon-Hubbard
http://www.spaink.net/cos/LRH-bio/sara.htm

Sorry, I have to disagree. I "knew" what a 1.1 was long before I studied Ron's data on the subject, because even as a child / teenager I could feel there was something wrong with certain people who nevertheless smiled sweetly and said all the right things; there was something "creepy" about them. Doing the "Ups and Downs" course in the Church allowed me to blow charge by seeing clearly what had been done to me by someone in my family who fitted that description, but all that really happened was that I recognised things that I knew but didn't know I knew (if that makes sense).

It was Ruth Minshull's book "How to Choose Your People" that really woke me up on it though; 1.1's impinge on you. Very characteristic once you've experienced it for yourself.

If you'd prefer a different example from LRH, take a look at M. Scott Peck. He was far from perfect as a man too, he drank, smoked and committed adultery. Yet he wrote works of great wisdom, among which is one called "People of the Lie" about people who correspond pretty closely to what LRH defined and described as SPs. (I felt like throttling that pair of rich WASP parents by the end of it).

LRH and M. Scott Peck; two imperfect men, who in different ways nevertheless recognised and documented an important and unsavoury truth about the world we live in, viz., there really are people out there trying to stop you becoming who you really want to be.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Though I think you can add in almost another 500 threads from the Evaluating/Criticizing Scientology and Scientology Technology sections that end up with FZ invariably being involved in the discussions by their very nature. As they are popular threads, perhaps that is why there could be a perception of FZ or tech advocates posting a lot. :D

That's true, and it's something I didn't consider.
 

Escalus

Patron Meritorious
So you mean that someone used a logical fallacy in a debate with you?

Oh NO! Not HERE! Heavens...

And you were unable to handle it?

What I mean is I enjoy spirit in a debate, that's when I turn on. But when I hit logical fallacies like "it works because it is shown to work" I do tend to get a little more animated.

In all honesty, i think freezoners are deluded and still infected with a disease they can't confront. Their denial that their minds are still controlled are meaningless to me. I actually feel more sorry for them than anything else. But when the few who come on with this standard Scientology tech-like answers get on that jag I like to push their buttons. Then they can deny their minds are still under someone else's control AND deny their buttons were pushed.

Earthlings are easy...
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
Has CofS ceased fairgaming squirrels? - FZ that is.. I was just thinking that CofS would just lurve to have us doing their sordid work.

Well, it's one more reason that FZ is not correct target at this point.

:screwy:
 

Escalus

Patron Meritorious
Has CofS ceased fairgaming squirrels? - FZ that is.. I was just thinking that CofS would just lurve to have us doing their sordid work.

Well, it's one more reason that FZ is not correct target at this point.

:screwy:

By that same token I don't see why the current upsurge in protest against the cult itself should be viewed as the freezone's private army.

They can protest for their reasons and I'll protest for mine. But that doesn't stop me from having an opinion about their obtuse little world.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Oh NO! Not HERE! Heavens...



What I mean is I enjoy spirit in a debate, that's when I turn on. But when I hit logical fallacies like "it works because it is shown to work" I do tend to get a little more animated.

In all honesty, i think freezoners are deluded and still infected with a disease they can't confront. Their denial that their minds are still controlled are meaningless to me. I actually feel more sorry for them than anything else. But when the few who come on with this standard Scientology tech-like answers get on that jag I like to push their buttons. Then they can deny their minds are still under someone else's control AND deny their buttons were pushed.

Earthlings are easy...

I think it is a logical fallacy in itself to say that your opponent's argument in a debate is wrong because they are mentally damaged.

At least I think I read that somewhere....

Hmmmmm.... where would that be???
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
It's a rare Scientologist who escapes the Cult without carrying away insidious bits of 'certainty' implanted there. Many can go decades without actually cleaning out that garage.

And, it's human nature; the pack-rat in us assumes that, if we saved it; it *must* have value! And, thanks to the Cult processed conditioning, the defense of the last glittering gimmcracks can be as determined and vicious and blind as even the original defense of the indefensible Cult itself was.

But, it seems to me, that with exposure and examination and discussion, even these last hold-out chunks of Ron begin to lose their holding power, except in the most deliberately barricaded, and, even in them.

If nothing else, ESMB and the discussion here serves to expose the cherished certainties to the erosion of reason. Painful as that may be.

Zinj
 

asagai

Patron Meritorious
Sorry, I have to disagree. I "knew" what a 1.1 was long before I studied Ron's data on the subject, because even as a child / teenager I could feel there was something wrong with certain people who nevertheless smiled sweetly and said all the right things; there was something "creepy" about them.

It was Ruth Minshull's book "How to Choose Your People" that really woke me up on it though; 1.1's [/I]impinge [/I]on you. Very characteristic once you've experienced it yourself.

If you'd prefer a different example from LRH, take a look at M. Scott Peck. He was far from perfect as a man too, he drank, smoked and committed adultery. Yet he wrote works of great wisdom, among which is one called "People of the Lie" about people who correspond pretty closely to what LRH defined and described as SPs. (I felt like throttling that pair of rich WaASP parents by the end of it).



Ron's "genius" was taking observable phenomena and weaving them into a slave-making cult. This was his intention to make men his slaves.

So of course, we studied his dogma and some of it rang true with our experience so we filled in the gaps in our understanding of these phenomena and of life with the other bits of Ron's philosophy and bingo! He had his slaves!

Re-read Science of Survival and you will see that he clearly took observed behaviours and wove them together into a "wog"-hating "wog"-fearing technology to handle or isolate the "wogs".

So to return to your example, you voiced uncertainty over what to do about versions of "love" like "lust" and "1.1". I simply pointed out that you may have been influenced by a pervert's philosophy on the subject.

I can't de-programme you and you may not want to be. You may prefer to hold the confusions Ron's philosophy has stuck you with. It's your choice.

The "chart of human evaluation" is a load of bull, based upon some good observations by LRH, in my opinion. His observation was quite good, but his conclusions were perverted, I believe, influenced at the time by his own mis-treatment of and upsets with Sara Northrup.

The whole book and his "chart" is a justification for his own perverted behaviour.

Watch the Plymouth videos and see how nastily the Scios use the chart on Stu. Reading bits of it and sniggering about him in his prescence and you see a perfect example of Ron's perversions in practice.

Drop his cult brainwashing and then observe, see what you see. That's all I'm saying.

For example, I've met Stu and talked with him. Ron's Chart analysis of him is entirely incorrect. LRH's pigeon-holing of "1.1's" (which you referred to) is completely eroneous.

Ron has perverted your love, Cat, by chiming into some things that you had already observed and he's left you with a dilemma that you don't have a solution to. This was his intention, to confuse you, in order to make you accept his "solution" called the "Bridge to total freedom" and be his slave. :melodramatic:
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Sorry, I have to disagree. I "knew" what a 1.1 was long before I studied Ron's data on the subject, because even as a child / teenager I could feel there was something wrong with certain people who nevertheless smiled sweetly and said all the right things; there was something "creepy" about them. Doing the "Ups and Downs" course in the Church allowed me to blow charge by seeing clearly what had been done to me by someone in my family who fitted that description, but all that really happened was that I recognised things that I knew but didn't know I knew (if that makes sense).

It was Ruth Minshull's book "How to Choose Your People" that really woke me up on it though; 1.1's impinge on you. Very characteristic once you've experienced it for yourself.

If you'd prefer a different example from LRH, take a look at M. Scott Peck. He was far from perfect as a man too, he drank, smoked and committed adultery. Yet he wrote works of great wisdom, among which is one called "People of the Lie" about people who correspond pretty closely to what LRH defined and described as SPs. (I felt like throttling that pair of rich WASP parents by the end of it).

LRH and M. Scott Peck; two imperfect men, who in different ways nevertheless recognised and documented an important and unsavoury truth about the world we live in, viz., there really are people out there trying to stop you becoming who you really want to be.

You were simply given a stable datum that you could use to explain things that were hard for you to explain before. Once you accepted this stable datum, you felt relief. Feeling relief is not proof of the truth of something, although it is proof of the truthiness of something.

Remember, even Ron said that stable data don't have to be true, they just have to explain something or resolve a confusion to take hold.

People are different.

And they respond differently in different situations for an infinitude of reasons. No one explanation will fit all of those people or situations or responses.

That is a huge and wild confusion that can not be explained or even harnessed by an oversimplified concept such as "1.1" and "SP".

The proof of this lies in all the damage that applying those data have caused. How many Scientology businesses have been completely destroyed by firing someone because someone else got mad at them and "1.1" or "SP" was the most convenient and easily agreed upon make-wrong?

Look at all the damage that has been caused just by those two oversimplified characterizations of human beings.

You can't use slogans and labels to understand people and life.

There is no substitute for seeing things as they are in each situation.

Scientology is made up of fixed and ready-made oversimplifications that real life can not fit into.

Life = Infinite
Scientology = Finite

Therefore, Life can not fit into Scientology.
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
By that same token I don't see why the current upsurge in protest against the cult itself should be viewed as the freezone's private army.

They can protest for their reasons and I'll protest for mine. But that doesn't stop me from having an opinion about their obtuse little world.
I'm sure Anonymous is nobodys private army.. I'm fairly certain that anons are cautious af 'hubbardites' of any flavour.

It's an 'enemy of my enemy' thing.

The 'Old Guard' is quite respected. Nice if I might say so.. I get to enjoy that, even as I feel undeserving. I was a stupid fool buying into the shit. Most of the Anons are spades smarter than I ever was. Belonging to the majority of humankind, of which 90% are smart enough to smell cult billowing about Scientology.

The respect comes with hardnose critique, explaining how 'the tech' is mainpulative, mindbending and redicoulous. They'd bloody well steamroller an FZ'er attempting to persuade 'em that Dianetics is good and they need some.

Until completely and utterly flat!

:yes:
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Thanks, but I'm actually a bloke. I think I should call myself Tomcat's Squirrel, might resolve some of the confusion. :) My username is a play on the word "squirrel" and also a homage to 60's rock (it's a track by Cream).

well whoops... my apologies to you!

What I'd like to ask you is this;

You clearly take a very absolutist line on this, which I'll paraphrase thus; Scn is complete s**te and anyone who believes in it are fools and w***ers (clearly including me).

No no no, the phrase that springs to mind is "gullible twits" or naifs.

Nevertheless, some people believe they have made gains with the Tech.

some people think they have made gains with rastafarianism, does that mean you will be dreadlocking and smoking the ganja?

How do you account for that? And if they're deluded, why are they more deluded than people who have made gains with any other kind of counselling or therapy?

How do you account for the fact that over 80% of the people who try scientology think that it is total rubbish?

But to answer your question - because they are gullible twits who have no idea how to think critically. In a nutshell.

I notice that everything you refer to revolves around the mysterious "making gains" - so what, exactly do you mean with the phrase "making gains"?

People believe in Scientology for the same reasons they believe in quack "cures". They do not realize that they are going to change - with or without the "cure". People do not stay the same, they adapt, they learn most people improve in their capability to handle their life. Not all, of course, but most.

You see CS - let's take our little back and forth - you have dismissed the concept of the "Clear" as outlined by Hubbard. Now Hubbard said that not only had he cleared people but that he had trained others to do it and had seen and noted the results. According to Hubbard this was observed fact it was supposedly as thoroughly researched as any engineering.

But you, apparently, think Hubbard was either nuts or a liar. Wanna pick a runway and set yourself down?

So - if the work that started this whole thing is wrong - why would you think that anything else this charlatan laid his pudgy fingers on was any better? He produced not one shred of proof, Scientologists as a group are only as effective as any other fanatical group of brainwashed devotees, in fact the Moonies and the Hare Krishnas appear to be doing much better than Scientology.

Now, I do not want to stop you from enjoying the "gains" you get from whatever it is that you do - Pilotism?? Oggology? OC sufferers get "gains "from washing their hands multiple times for example or high functioning autistics can get "gains" from counting and I do not wish to stop them either at least not until there is some sort of cure. I don't want to stop you getting those "gains" , in fact , more power to your elbow but if you start posting on a public forum about them then I assume that you are up for debating them otherwise why talk about them - unless you are trying to suck other people in?

And that's where I draw the line - Scientologists and those who support the various parts of it are dangerous because they are total amateurs, but they think they know something.

Most scientologists know absolutely nothing about therapy, mental illness, psychiatry and psychology beyond what they have read from Hubbard or in Freedumb Magazine. They read 4 articles by HUbbard and suddenly think they know more than any "psych" who ever lived.

This makes them dangerous. In the same way that I would not want to see a child playing with razor blades I do not wish to see Scientologists doing anything in the field of therapy to someone else - they can do whatever they like to themselves.

But if you just want to sit around in dark rooms "blanketing" others - well hey, be my guest.
 

Ladybird

Silver Meritorious Patron
Excellent, thankyou for all your hard work and allowing such discussions to take place. :)

Though I think you can add in almost another 500 threads from the Evaluating/Criticizing Scientology and Scientology Technology sections that end up with FZ invariably being involved in the discussions by their very nature. As they are popular threads, perhaps that is why there could be a perception of FZ or tech advocates posting a lot. :D


This is a very good point. Also, I think it would be interesting to look at some of the most prolific posters who seem to put at least 2 cents worth of defending or at least making excuses for the "tech" in almost every thread on the board.
 
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