Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

Done to get all the videos and transcripts right next to each other.


YouTube- interview aaron saxton part 1 of 7

TRANSCRIPT: VIDEO 1

Carmel: So, can you give us a brief history? Of what you experienced in Scientology?

Aaron: What happened is uh - I'm 35, I was born in 1974 - and my parents were in Scientology. So I actually did a couple of courses, but really wasn't involved with Scientology all that much until I was 15. And, when I turned 15, I actually joined on staff, and became a member of the Sea Organisation, just after my 15th birthday.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: And I stayed there until I was 21, so I did 6 years for them, and then after that I was involved in Scientology again for another year and a half before I finally left them for good. And I haven't been involved since then.

Carmel: So you were in the Sea Org from when you were 15 until you were 22 or something.

Aaron: That's correct, yes.

Carmel: So how did that affect you as a young man? I mean, you missed out those, some of those prime years there.

Aaron: It was hard, because I didn't know what I was missing until afterwards. I, how I dealt with life in there was difficult, because.. I mean as a young man I was trying to, trying to grow, I was trying to go out and find different likes and dislikes. And all of that was crushed, because the only liking you could have was for the purpose of the Sea Org; the only liking you could have was for the music produced by Golden Era Productions, the only books you could read were from L Ron Hubbard, you know, you couldn't go off and read this or that, you couldn't listen to radio, you couldn't read the newspapers, you couldn't buy magazines, you know, you couldn't even watch TV.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: So your whole life was that, and you know as a young man I wanted to, you know, I was growing, you know? I was going through puberty!

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: And... you wouldn't think it was wrong to want to, to love another human being, you wouldn't think it was wrong to show emotion or liking towards a woman.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: And the moment you do that in there, you're punished! You know, I wanted to experience sex, I wanted to touch a female body. But the moment I did it, I'm dragged into this office by these men that tell you you're an ape! You're an ape for masturbating, you're evil for even having considered the idea of, of, of, of touching this woman outside of marriage, you know? And, you know, I look around me and see the people that are married in this place, and they don't even get to see their wives, so why would I want that? I just wanted to know what it was like to kiss a woman, and that's punishable. And then, you know, and I'm forced onto the decks, I'm made to clean and do hard labour to do amends, to repent for it, and I'm held in this office and told read this, this shows that, you know, if you think about ejaculation, if you think about touching a woman, you're an ape, you're not in control of your emotions.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: I mean, I'm a young man, I'm hard-wired! This is what, this is what young men, young women do! And you're left there with a choice: how do I handle this? How do I resolve not wanting to, to express this desire? So you come up with a solution.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: And the solution was horrible: I have to stop wanting sex. I have to stop it because, and then when you try to stop wanting it, they take you into an interrogation and the thought of wanting to have sex - well, the thought leads to the action, so therefore don't even have the thought!

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: So how do you deal with this, how does your mind cope? Well I, I started to comprehend things, I'd get an erection, and I'd think of something like cockroaches, or a horror film, or vampires or anything, something that, uurgh, would make me go like that, so that I could turn it off and let my erection go down. I wore tight pants, tight underwear so that it would crush and cut off the blood there, so that it couldn't act, so that it couldn't do what it was supposed to do, which was grow and erect and make me go off and want to have hormones.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: You know, anything that turned that on, I wanted to turn it off.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: And, this goes on and on and on. And eventually your mind identifies sex with real pain, because the action results in such pain in the Sea Organisation, in Scientology management, it results in such punishment, that it is evil for you to do this.

Carmel: Yeah.

Aaron: This is a fundamental dynamic and right of a human being and a desire and, you know, it's gone, it's crushed, and while everyone else out there was going through that through their great teenage years and experiencing and finding out true love, I was, I was finding out what it was like to be punished for the thought of it.

Carmel: Yeah. So after you left the Sea Org, say, after you were 22, how did that affect you then? I mean, how did you cope with that after that?

Aaron: Can you imagine, I'd been doing that for so long - having these images in my mind to turn me off from having sex - that when it actually came time to be with a woman, properly, outside the Church confounds, and have sex -

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: - I had to have the lights off. Not, not for some arousal reason. I had to have the lights off because I had to close my eyes and now I had to have those images in my mind, those horrible images, to have sex because my body over the last 6 years got used to the idea of having the erection and having these mental images of terror and ugly, disgusting things. And the body got, overrode it and said right, I'll have an erection now when you have these ideas. So when I'm with this woman, I'm not thinking about the woman, I'm not even thinking about other women, I'm thinking about anything else other than sex so that I can now have sex! And if, if you want to talk about dysfunctional, this doesn't even being to comprehend it. I felt sorry for my wife that I had in Melbourne. I felt sorry for her because she didn't understand why sex was so hard for us, why emotionally, why touching, why the speaking of the word 'love' was just a foreign idea to me.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: You know? Touching, that's - you know, my mind goes "Heavy petting, don't do it!" My mind just jumps to this, you know? "Don't touch in public." And in private, don't do anything. Wait till you go to the bedroom only.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: We're talking about a real trial for you mind.

Carmel: Yep. Dear oh dear! Uhm, can you describe what you think that you became, or how you became as a Sea Org member? You've spoken to me before about, uhm, yeah, about the fact you feel like that wasn't you and now you're trying to find you back.

Aaron: I didn't know what to do to, to survive, to feel good, I had to do something that resulted in happiness. And, when you're in an environment that only rewards you, only rewards you when you've done what is needed to be done, as opposed to what you think should be done or what is right, after years of that you decide "I'm going to do what I need to in order to get an applaud, I'm going to do what I need to in order to sit down and be in peace." And often those things unfortunately meant, in my position there in the Church, being always in the Communications Office, always in charge of ethics and morality issues for staff, with such a heavy burden on punishment and making people do what I wanted to do, that's where I got my enjoyment from. I didn't, I... I didn't have friendships like that! My friend could be a friend the next day and then after the next day I'd be penalising them, out of the job, so I had to learn that you didn't get happiness from friendships. And relationships were a no-no. Where do you get happiness from? Enjoying what you must do. And that's where I got my happiness from. Right or wrong had nothing to do with it, I didn't even - those two words did not come into the equation.

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: And unfortunately for the human beings around me, that were very much not treated like human beings, they suffered because of a result of that, because they were dealing with a man here that looked at them like this. And now here I am as an adult, outside of that, and I'm looking around at people. They're no longer assets, they're no longer parts of a machine, they demand respect, they want to be treated like a living thing. I'm still trying to get there! I'm sorry, but for 6 years of my life, non-stop, every day: assets, they're parts of a machine, I must make them work.

Carmel: So you didn't consider, you didn't view them as people, with feelings or?

Aaron: No. Well, you can't... no! Because even the concept of dealing with their feelings or "Am I going to ignore their emotions" didn't even come into the equation any more! What has that got to do with what I've got to do for the Church? I am sorry, I have got to get this product. I have got to get this done. Their consequence of how they felt about it can't be part of the equation, if, and it can't be part of my equation. It got to a point where I didn't lose sleep. If I asked this person to have an abortion, I didn't lose sleep, I didn't even think twice after it. My only consideration was "Phew, god! I don't have to fill that post again with another person because they're going to abort." Or, if they did decide that they were going to have the baby, I was going "Christ! I have to hire someone to replace them!" There was no joy, there was no celebration, there was -

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

YouTube- the interview aaron saxton part 2 of 7.wmv

TRANSCRIPT - VIDEO 2


Aaron: - announcement “Hey, Monica Potter’s going to have a baby!” The joy of life, this, there’s no announcement of this.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Instead it was “Monica’s betrayed us, and she’s going to leave the organisation and we’re going to have to work harder! Because SHE’S betrayed the trust.” That’s the viewpoint. It was never the word ‘love’ spoken in one single conversation.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: No, it’s “Do this.” You know, I’d look out on the public Scientologists – at least they had the option to have that!

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: As a staff member, in the Sea Org, there wasn’t that option. You could have a relationship, you could have love. A public Scientologist, he had the joy of getting auditing and this apparent privilege to speak. I had the penalty, I had security checks and an interrogation every two months. That was MY auditing. I mean, something went wrong with a public Scientologist’s auditing, you had a chance to get it corrected. I didn’t, we went off to the cramming office and we were told “In line!”, you know, “Clear up your misunderstood words! You’re out-ethics!” you know?

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: That was my experience. Your experience: you had a win in Scientology, you enjoyed a moment, you can go out to a café and talk to your friends. The moment I had anything out of it, I come out of the auditing session, 5 minutes later I’m back on post: “Right, who am I gonna court marshall today?”

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Or “Who’s on my list to go off and get?”

Carmel: So what was your post when you were doing this?

Aaron: Most years I spent was over in Los Angeles, there I was the, I was in charge of the, the communications with the establishment division of the Messenger organisation. And the Messenger organisation are those people who are charged with the highest authority in the Church, to basically do what’s ever needed at any time, written or verbal, is not applicable, and enforce that on management. So whereas management were over local management units within continents that were then over the organisations, we were over management, and overrode their decisions or asked them to do whatever was needed. Because often parts of the puzzle didn’t understand why they were doing particular activities. It seemed innocent enough,

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: but only the CMO and RTC were actually in full control of the facts. Why do we need that org over there, that organisation, to do particularly well right now? Why? Well maybe we’ve got a legal case coming up and we need to strengthen the field out there, we need to get that part working.

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: It’s all about the Church. I don’t care, I didn’t care about the individuals involved. It’s just “Can we get it done?” You, you’re a piece of meat. We call, we called staff members ‘coins’, that was the term. When we had a, when we had a person that we could get a position filled with and we would shove them off to Flag, you know, shove them down to Florida, it didn’t MATTER if he had a child there, it didn’t MATTER if he had a wife in Los Angeles. That’s not the point. I can take this guy, I can send him over to the Flag Land Base and I can fix that problem. And then he starts screaming about the fact that he’s away from his family. It’s like “Excuse me, Sea Org policy says you will do anything required of you in the name of the Sea Org” and you will do it. If you don’t… “You’re in ethics conditions, do you have doubts about being a Sea Org member? You, you have doubts?! You’re a Suppressive Person! Do you wanna be declared? We’re gonna have to tell your wife and kids that.” And then you go and separate them off, “Right, communication’s over.” And then you go and talk to the wife “I’m sorry, but your, your, your husband has decided that he’s got doubts in the Sea Org, he’s not willing to perform his duties, and you know, we’ve done a security check on him, and I’m sorry to tell you but he’s actually thought about going out-2D on you, he’s thought about other woman.”

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: “You know, he’s not really in line with the purpose any more, and, sorry to say, but you’re not really part of his equation any more, either. You can do something about this, you can leave him and stay in the Sea Org. You can do this.” And sure enough, she sits down there and goes “Geez, why did he go to the, why did he go to Florida and walk away from me?” And then she takes a look at him, was he a good father? “Oh, I never got to spend time with him anyway. What value is he really as a, as a partner?” Because there IS no value, because you don’t have time to have a relationship. So it’s not hard for that person to go “Alright, I will divorce him.” If you took a look at the statistics of the Sea Org, and every member in it, and how many marriages they had, we’ve got people who’ve been married two, three, four, five times.

Carmel: Yeah.

Aaron: And this is all from a Church which claims to be able to solve these problems in relationships, and just about every Sea Org member has a history of one or two marriages.

Carmel: So how often did that happen? What you described about, you know, talking to the wife and getting that marriage to be dissolved, how often did that happen?

Aaron: Well quite a lot.

Carmel: That you knew of.

Aaron: Well quite a lot. I mean, let’s understand one thing. When I was over in Los Angeles working there, we had the entire middle management, some 500 staff.

Carmel: This was the late 80s, early 90s, wasn’t it?

Aaron: Uh, the mid 90s.

Carmel: Mid 90s?

Aaron: 93, 94, 95,

Carmel: Ok.

Aaron: 96. We had around 500 staff, now if you can imagine for a moment possibly having, uh, each staff member being in some serious trouble perhaps twice in a year. That equated to 1000 incidents per year. Over my 3 year period in there, that’s some 3000 incidents. Now, this staff member over here may hear something, but from my position in the Communications Office, we’re the ones dealing with it every day.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: So I dealt with this quite a lot. How many instances, you asked? I couldn’t even give you a figure, it would be, you are, if we’re going to talk about specific incidents of sitting a guy down about his marriage, or the issue of talking to his family?

Carmel: Yeah.

Aaron: Then we’re talking hundreds.

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: Some of these young kids, they’re all from around the world. They’ve got no other hope, other than the hope that we give them. They’ve been told to disconnect – their families are asking for them back, they want them back for Christmas!

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: We don’t want them to go away for Christmas, because we know if we send them away, if we allow them to go, there’s a high probability that they’re not gonna want to come back, so don’t let them go in the first place.

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: So what happens is, the family arcs up, goes “Come on, you’re entitled to several weeks leave per annum, come back, have it.” What I would do? Give them a security check, give them an interrogation. “I’m sorry, but you did this wrong. You’re gonna have to do conditions, you’re gonna have to do liability. This could take you several months. We can’t approve your request for leave. Denied.” Then the family starts sending letters: “What are you involved in that you can’t even take time off?” I received a letter – all the communications to the staff from the public are monitored – I receive the communication, and I go “Oh god, they’re gonna get him out.” So I pull the staff member in, put the letter over here. “Excuse me, your family is, uhm, anti-you being here.” And they look down and go “God, I know.” They know it! Of course they’re anti them being here, they haven’t been able to see them in a year or two.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: And you talk to them and go “Well, what you’re doing here in the Sea Org with Scientology is far more important than your immediate family. Let’s get them on the phone and talk to them,” and you coerce them into talking to them, give them a public relations story “Oh, I, I will come back in a month or two.” Another month or two goes past; they start getting angry, they start making phone calls. You start blocking off those calls and finally you tell the staff member: “You know what? It’s time to disconnect. They’re really against you being here.” And guess what, the staff member goes “You know what, they’re right, cause I talk to them and they just yell and scream at me now, and start criticising Scientology, they must be crazy.” “So, disconnect.” “Ok, disconnect.” “Good.” Fair roads, fair weather, you only write them, write them once a month, talk about how great it is, talk about, tell them you’re having fun. You don’t want to get them upset about you. Eventually, the family line disappears.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Then one day, this person wants to think about leaving the Sea Org. How are they supposed to? They’ve got nowhere to go in life. They don’t have bank accounts, they don’t have credit cards. They don’t even know what’s going on out in the world: there’s no newspapers, there’s no television, there’s no magazines. They’re completely dependent upon now the life that you give them.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: What do you do as a human being? If you even know you’re a human being any more, if that concept is still real to you. You haven’t played sports, you haven’t sat, been to a movie together… you’ve worked, 14 hours a day. You’re a machine now. Machines don’t have the luxury of thinking. Just do, you just do, do, do, do…

Carmel: So tell me, what’s your take on uhm, DM being responsible for this, as opposed to say, LRH and Scientology itself?

Aaron: Oh, it’s good for somebody to point the finger and blame, that one man is in his entirety-

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

YouTube- the interview aaron saxton part 3 of 7.wmv

TRANSCRIPT - VIDEO 3


Aaron: - one tyrannical man. Yes, David Miscavige is tyrannical - but I was just the same, I was one of those. There's no difference between DM and myself, there wasn't. I would have done everything he did, and I did.

Carmel: And others as well, were the same.

Aaron: And others, they were all created. But where did that creation come from, what makes it ok? Ok? I'll tell you what does. What you see, what the public out there see is... I mean, Scientology's policies are criticised. We'll get together these books, we'll get together these volumes of policy letters and we'll show the world these are your policies. I'm, but guess what? We won't show you what the Sea Organisation runs off: our own separate set of orders from Ron. Our own Flag orders, numbering in the thousands. We have Office of Special Affairs Special Orders. We have special training material for Messengers, special orders only for Messengers. And within the Sea Org, most of the Flag orders are not even known to the very Sea Org members, but they are to management; and then within management, even a smaller group are privy to the other policy letters. These policy letters dictate these actions that they are okay: altercations between staff members ARE acceptable. This is Ron's words.

Carmel: You mean physical altercations?

Aaron: That's correct. These words are not heard but, or known by public Scientologists. These are his words saying you can beach a human being, and throw them overboard. This is Ron Hubbard words saying you MAY put a person in the Rehabilitation Project Force and bar all communication with other human beings? That you can be punished for communication, I mean ANY communication, unless prompted and, and instructed to speak.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: These are policies that say the purpose of the Sea Org has NOTHING to do with Scientology. This is about putting Ethics in on the planet. And it's about control. These, these policies instruct and guide you on how to take care of an enemy network or group of people that are attacking the Sea Org of Scientology. These are, they are not the same policy letters you see, or a public Scientologist and what you call the "Potential Trouble Source Suppressive Person Rundown Course". These are far more aggressive than anything you've ever imagined. And THAT'S the machine. David Miscavige is just enforcing the policies and following them as a zealot.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: He's not making this stuff up - these policies really exist, to do this, to act in that way, to use aggression.

Carmel: So how many others would know about these policies, or these, you know..

Aaron: A number. We mi- I'll give you an example: I was surprised to hear Marty Rathbun's departure from the Church.

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: I met Marty Rathbun several times. And was involved with him at the Flag Land Base up in Los Angeles, and I also met him on the ship. And what amazed me is that people like Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder aren't talking about anything. They don't even see what the real crime's here. They're talking about David Miscavige giving him a slap. I'm sorry, but this happened, this happened throughout the Sea Organisation: Foster Tompkins used to beat staff, DM used to do it. You, they're not the first people to hit another human being.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: What, what's shocked me though, Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder, were involved in having staff members being fed beans and rice for weeks at a time at the Flag Land Base and in the Home Guarantee Building. Denying children nutritional supplements. Mike Rinder in specific allowing young men and boy, and men and woman, to be hired, and how did we fix the 'educational requirements'? We pay the Scientologists out in Los Angeles to give them a 'certificate' that said they had approved educational standards. Yet Mike Rinder and Marty aren't even looking at these things as crimes. They're not looking at the fact that we didn't even provide medical uh provisions for staff. We didn't have women get Pap smear tests to check for cervical cancer. To check their eyesight. The answer to everything is "We'll audit you", but you don't GET auditing. And there's Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder talking about "I got slapped by David Miscavige" and that's their big crime for 20 years. I'm sorry, that's not the crime. And why aren't they talking about it? Maybe they don't even think that what they did was a crime. The only reason they're talking about David Miscavige slapping is because they felt physical pain. To them that's a crime. And labelling David Miscavige as the cause of all this: untrue. Marty Rathbun himself has reamed out staff. Marty Rathbun himself has been tyrannical. Mark Ingber has been tyrannical. Marc Yager, a tall, imposing figure and often the head of the Commodore's Messenger Organisation, a very imposing individual who has walked around the organisations going "Sec check him!" "You're off post!" "You do this!" "You're going on mission!" "You're out ethics!" They're not even talking about these incidents. David Miscavige had nothing to do with those. And that's how Marc Yager liked to run his Messenger Organisation, that filtered down through management. I was running around the Hollywood Guarantee Building: "You're out ethics!" Sorry, we've got a policy in the Church that says I can RPF one person at a Flag bureau every week. I don't need justification, I just need to keep you on your toes. Who's it gonna be this week? Better not be the down-statistic guy, you could be next. Watch it. Then (sharp breath intake) fear is the dominating factor. Fear gives compliance.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Willingness doesn't. LRH talks about using affinity to obtain compliance... only for a public Scientologist! Look into the policy letters and it's rife, the Sea Org's policy letters are rife with aggression, and command, and discipline for even misaddressing a senior officer. And sometimes in the mind of a person probably viewing this video, it would be hard to reconcile the two different human beings I'm talking about: L. Ron Hubbard the founder, L. Ron Hubbard the dictator and Commodore of the Sea Organisation. But the two people are the same. And people may be listening to this, who have been in the Sea Org, know this is true and thought that it was the exception that they were treated like that.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: It's not the exception, it's the rule. And the higher you go up, the worse it gets. The problem is, you can't disagree.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Because if you disagree, even mentally, you'll get a security check and one of the question will be: "Have you thought?" So now it becomes wrong to even have a thought. So if you can't do, you can't think, you can't compute now. So now you have to turn off that part of your mind that even thinks. Because you can't afford to think: is it right or wrong what my senior just did?

Carmel: Yep. So tell me, when uhm, uhm, when these Sea Org people say the HGB building, you know, whatever, they were getting the beans and rice and weren't getting medical attention and things, what was the scene for the guys in the upper management? Guys like Marc Yager, Guillaume Lesevre, Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder? What, what was the scene for them?

Aaron: Lavish! Uhm, I'll give you an example.

Carmel: Lavish?

Aaron: Lavish. Spending.

Carmel: Yeah?

Aaron: For them, uh, I'll give you an example. About three times a year David Miscavige, Marty Rathbun included, uh... Guillaume Lesevre, the Executive Director International, various members of the Watchdog Committee, would all come down to Florida. We had for them special apartments built at the Hacienda Gardens that were just gorgeous! Spanish marble, layered throughout, luxurious kitchens, gymnasiums for them with the latest equipment. We, I, I arranged a purchase of one piece of gym equipment at a cost of almost ten thousand US dollars. And you know what they did with it? Ronny Miscavige got up on it and did his little trick of hanging by his toes. This is David Miscavige's brother.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: That's how amusing the instrument was to him. It was a toy. And then we would take cash funds and we would allocate vast amounts of money to the Grand, uh, Pontiac Grand Am so they could drive around in luxury, I'd arrange drivers if they wanted drivers to drive them around while everyone walked or got on a packed bus. Uh, their diets were special. They had special nutritional requirements so we would buy wheatgrass and wheatgrass juices and fine coffees from France coffee houses and crackers from Switzerland. You know, you'd have to make this shit up almost to believe it. And, but this, this was their budget. And then we would take that huge amount of cash and it would be exhausted, and then we would justify the expense through falsification of some kind of a record or receipt that we could get from a public Scientologist or something, and that was declared the usage of the moneys.

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: But we're talking thousands of dollars here. The average Sea Org member got less paid to him in one year than what one executive would have just spent on his luxuries in a week. And this is how they lived. Uh, I got a ten dollar Sea Org shirt. Marty Rathbun, David Miscavige -

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

YouTube- the interview aaron saxton part 4 of 7.wmv

TRANSCRIPT - VIDEO 4



Aaron: - they got 150 US dollars - back in 1992 - 120, 150 US dollars for a hand-made, Egyptian cotton shirt. And WE were made to hand-wash them for THEM, because we couldn't, you, put it in a machine. That one shirt that he got was worth more than all the uniforms I would get in two years.

Carmel: Yep. But you had a senior position too, you were, what was your?

Aaron: Oh, I took luxuries. I mean, after they left the base, I always made sure there was enough good food left over for me and some of MY people in the Messenger Organisation, too. I mean, we ate like kings as well, so we liked them coming down. Because, after they left, who gets the spoils of war? We do... you know. We go, went off and finished off that big shopping that we did. It was so 'tragic' for us if the executives had to leave early, because all that great food and stuff... I mean, we DREAMED about food like this! You get what you're eating in the Sea Org. We put them on beans and rice at the Flag Land Base to teach them a lesson, I mean I'm not talking beans and rice, I'm talking beans and rice for breakfast, lunch AND dinner, ok?

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: And they try to go off to the canteen to buy food - we post security guards to prevent them from buying other food, because otherwise the punishment wasn't being enforced,

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: understood by the staff member.

Carmel: Right. So were you guys on beans and rice at the same time?

Aaron: Y'know, actually sometimes we were, yeah.

Carmel: But sometimes you weren't?

Aaron: Nah, sometimes we got away with it, yeah... because technically we weren't part of the Flag Land Base. We were "Messengers". And, over in Los Angeles as well, uhm, we'd find ways to get around it. I mean, the Messengers are a power unto their own, they're a law unto themselves. They're not answerable to anybody. If we really wanted to get around something, we could do that.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: I mean, the idea is we looked at management like chalk and cheese. Management and Scientologists are the scum that we have to deal with, and frankly any bullshit that they give us is an inconvenience to us, you know? We're the Messengers, we're authorised by policy to do anything we want. You can't stop us, there's nothing you can do... so everything that went wrong with management was looked at not as a responsibility but as a "Oh god, here we go again, gotta fix this", you know. And... I look at a staff list, I see names. I don't see humans, I see names. I don't look, I don't look at a person's file and see a human being that has horrible experiences as a child or what happened to them. I look and go "Christ. Is he going to fall apart if I put him on that post?" My consideration isn't to fix him, my consideration is: can I use him?

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: Is he good enough for what I want, is he robust enough? Does he turn off enough so that he can put up with this position I'm going to give him? Care of staff members... I'm sorry, we have an ethics office. We don't have a chaplain. There IS nobody to go grieve to. You grieve to the ethics officer. I was the ethics officer. And the solution is always the same: "You did something wrong. You're the cause of your demise and you're wasting. My. Time. Get. Out." And then after that if he still misbehaves "Christ, ok, we'll give him a Committee of Evidence. We'll give him a Declare." These are extremes, to go declaring a person is an extreme action, you're cutting him all of from everybody he knows.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: And what concerns me is that we've got people out there, uh, who have had positions similar to mine, within the Sea Organisation, within the Church, such as Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder, and I'm not understanding why they keep coming forward with these statements that "I'm a victim". They were the aggressors!

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Everyone's a victim, if you really want to go down to that level, we're all victims, you know. But, hang on, we're talking about thousands of people world wide and the stories coming out from all levels and apparently no-one's doing it, it's just all a magic trick. I'm sorry, but Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder are totally responsible, they stood by and watched while they instructed their HCO communications officers to do these things to their own staff, to deny them liberties, to deny them days off. This is not a crime? Basic fundamental human rights in a civilised society say: you get medical treatment, you have the right to work some certain hours, you should enjoy life, you should do other activities. And Mike Rinder, as the commanding officer of the Office of Special Affairs, DENIED these rights to his staff. Marty Rathbun, as the Inspector General for Ethics, just stood by while the technology was changed and gave his big rubber stamp.

Carmel: Technology changed?

Aaron: Yeah, there was a project set up years ago in Scientology to change it because it was realised that Ron Hubbard had said some pretty far-out things.

Carmel: Yeah?

Aaron: Was coming under scrutiny, the book all about radiation contained clear falsehoods. A lot of his books did. They had to be fixed to make Scientology credible. So, slowly change the policy letters; L. Ron Hubbard becomes a trademark, not a human being.

Carmel: So who was in charge of that project then?

Aaron: Don't know who was in charge of that project. It was a general fundamental agreement, but Marty Rathbun himself, as the Inspector General for Technology, signed off on these things. He stood by and allowed this to actually go. My Messenger Organisation that I was part of had the office of the Senior Case Supervisor International.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Rubber stamped: change it, change it, change it! I mean, all these books and things that have come out, and, and all the technology has been changed, what you're a-, being asked to believe here is that Ron Hubbard himself had that Saint Hill special briefing course, which included all materials on Scientology, himself was a squirrel! His own technology, that he delivered to, personally supervised to people, thousands! Was all wrong! And somehow, he didn't even look at his own dictionary. He didn't even look at his own policy letters. Yet he was teaching it for years. This is the epitome of utter ridiculousness. That at the start of every course in Scientology, and in the Sea Org, there is "Keeping Scientology Working", which says "any alteration to the tech". But David Miscavige and people like Marty Rathbun said: "Oh, but, you know, we found a new document that says that Ron Hubbard really meant this." Well, where's the document? And when finally people asked on OT levels, saying "Excuse me, but did Ron really say this?" it took them about a decade to finally come out with a handwritten L. Ron Hubbard pages. Did they really come from Ron? Why did it take ten years to get them out?

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: Takes a long time to, to write somebody's handwriting. If you're good enough.

Carmel: Yep. So tell me, uhm, what did, what was your procedure, or how, how were, uhm, critics handled? how were critics, critics viewed, uhm, like threats to the Church? What was your procedure on handling them or dealing with them?

Aaron: There's a specific procedure. The procedure is: when you've got this critic, he's gotten the information from somewhere, to come and attack. Where did he get that information from? And once you identified the source of that, and it's always a human being, ok, find out a way to discredit them. Now people talk about, uhm, on the Internet and on boards and in books that Scientology, uhm, or not Scientology but the management of Scientology, uhm, manipulate information. Well, here's the big shock to everyone out there who's looking at this: is that thing you call a pr- priest petinent privileged file is not privileged. True, the auditor, per- person auditing you and the case supervisor above that auditor are probably never going to discuss those details. Most of them are very good like that, they wouldn't violate that sacred trust. The trust is only entrusted to them. I can still, as a Messenger, walk into the folder room and grab anyone's PC file, and read it. And that's exactly what I did. I can look in their file and see: "right, this person has admitted when he was seven year olds to having a dog lick his genitals, he's admitted to having sex with a woman that was legally underage. Oh, I've got this boy now!" Now, how do I get that information out of this file into the public domain? There's several solutions to it. First solution is: I can get him to admit it. What, how on earth would you do that? You approach them and you sit them down and you say "Look... uhm, we're gonna put you through a security check, ok? This is just to clear up everything, make everything in order, and then we're gonna, we're gonna clear you and give you a new post! Ok?" And the guy goes "Ooh, cool!" You sit him down, security check questions, tick tick tick tick. He sits down - he's not under auditing session any more - and the auditor says, still an auditor but not doing an auditing session: "So, have you had, ever had -

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

YouTube- the interview aaron saxton part 5 of 7.wmv

TRANSCRIPT - VIDEO 5

Aaron: - sex with someone who's underaged?" And the guy thinks "Oh, well yeah, you know the answer to that" and the auditor goes "No, we know, but we're just doing this to, you have to answer the question so it's still a security check for your qualifications" and the guy goes "Yeah, I have, and I did this blah blah, but you know about that." And I go: "Thank you VERY much! Gotcha." We've got it now, now we're entitled legally to put that out in the public domain because we're "morally conscious" of society's needs to know these things.

Carmel: And so how many people knew about this, wh- where you're working? How many people were aware of this? Everybody in CMO or...

Aaron: I would say the top, the commanding officers of CMO know, the deputy commanding officers know, and the HCO area secretaries know. The other staff to a mild extent, I mean they were familiar because they would often see the end results of, of a smear campaign against a staff member. And it's quite horrible for a staff member, he's gone and admitted to all these things in his life, and then he, he gets out of line and you decide to do a Committee of Evidence and now you splatter all these personal details on a Committee of Evidence and it's on the staff noticeboard. And the guy feels that big (show of tiny space between fingers). You're talking about his perverted sexual behaviour, oh my god! You've just, you've DESTROYED this guy's reputation to the very people he works with every day. Of course he's going to bow down and be a dog to you now.

Carmel: And what about those that don't bow down? What happened, what did you do to them, what did you do to them? The ones that kept fighting or the ones that kept -

Aaron: Naah, they were troublesome. We had, I mean, people that didn't comply were just annoying... I'm like, you know, just "Ugh, another one that's got a free mind. Christ. Why question it, what- it's not gonna change anything. If they keep questioning it, we got the, we got the Rehabilitation Project Force, we've got the, the penal colony we can put you in. That, the threat of that alone: enough, is enough to terrify people. To not do it. To sit back and go "Well ok, ok, I'll, I'll, alright, yeah, ok, it was out ethics for me to say that, ok." Because the fear, the idea that you could go into that environment is horrible now. If they were beyond even that - you're talking about a very free-minded person - the only other solution is: kick 'em out. And once they're out of the Sea Org, you gotta cut them off from Scientology. How do you do that? You enforce an order that reinforce throughout Los Angeles that if you were an ex-Scientologist: one, you could never be a staff member of another organisation.

Carmel: You mean an ex-Sea Org member?

Aaron: Yeah, you could never be a staff member of, uh, normal Scientology organisation. AND, if you joined up to a Scientology-run business, you had to sign a paper that said "I do intend to rejoin the Sea Org at one day." And then you'd have to pay your Freeloader bill first and foremost from the Sea Org. I mean, you're trapped. You're just caught. Now, you've got guys in there for five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten years - they don't KNOW anybody else in life other than Scientologists or Sea Org members.

Carmel: Yeah.

Aaron: You put them out on the street, they got nowhere to go. The fear of that alone is enough to keep you in there.

Carmel: So what about these crazy interrogations?

Aaron: There are no 'crazy interrogations'.

Carmel: Nah, I mean the, the things that you referred to as a 'brain fry'.

Aaron: Ah, ok. Uhm. This is interesting. Uh, you've got a, a procedure in the Sea Org called "rollback" and it's an informal interview that can be done with another person. It's not auditing, it's not a security check... but you have free reign of terror over what questions you can ask a person. Which means you don't have to follow the Auditor's Code.

Carmel: Who, who put out this issue on "rollback"?

Aaron: Ron Hubbard.

Carmel: Ok, yep, carry on.

Aaron: And you can sit there with a person, and ask them any question per se, on the fly, ask them anything. Talk them. But they're holding the e-meter cans, you're reading the meter and talking to them. So you're justified in asking anything. Guy says to you "Oh, yeah, I, I heard that Scientology was, was a, was money laundering." "Where did you hear that?" "Oh, from Desmond Harris." "Oh, who's Desmond Harris? (writing motion)" "Oh, he's this guy I know." "Oh, did he, is he a Scientologist? Would he know anything? Why do you listen to this guy?" The guy goes "Well cause he's a friend." "What made him a friend if he's not helping you in Scientology?" And just, and the aberration goes right from there on and can increase to anything. There's nothing you can't be asked for in those interviews. The end goal of the interview? A guy walking out of it who no longer complains. That's the end goal. And hopefully he hates the source of information he got it from in the first place. So enough to disconnect from it. And now you've really got him, now he's really with you. Rollback is one of the most evil techniques - I've read the HCO, uh, bulletins on it, and they're very selective people that can read these. I don't know why I was privy to them, I shouldn't have been, I didn't have the training for it. But this is just nasty stuff. Ron Hubbard's talking about how to confuse a human being, and take that confusion and get it directed towards another target! Anything to get you off Scientology track attack. It, here's an, here's an example: the IRS case. The Sea Org campaign launch was showing the number of human rights violations by the IRS: beating up this person, biolating the law on this person, some deaths involved, right? You recall those?

Carmel: Yep, yep yep yep.

Aaron: The moment the IRS gave us our little 'Tax-Free' stamp, that's it, we left them alone. And I asked a, a long term Scientologist, uh, Director of Special Affairs, I said uh "Did we fix what happened with the IRS?" and he said "Yeah, we got our tax-free status." I said "No no, I didn't mean that. I mean did they stop hurting people?" And he goes "What?" I said "Our, our whole campaign for year was about the IRS hurting people. Did they stop it? Did we find out if they stopped doing it?" "Why would we be, we just got our tax-exempt status." Yeah, don't you see the point? We were never in it to correct their out-ethics, we were only ever in it to get out stamp. Once we got the stamp we walked away from them and they could do whatever they wanted, we didn't care any more. Did you kill the guy? I don't give a shit any more, who cares, we got a tax-exempt status. If that's not the epitome of uh, uh, of hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: How inhumane can you get? We're gonna drop the- we were, we were helping these people to fight the IRS and the moment we got the IRS stamp we dumped them! You're on your own now, so- we can't help you, IRS is on our side now. See ya later, bye bye, we've just destroyed your life. We made you write that confession in the paper on the IRS. We made you go public with it, we told you we were going to help you. Byye bye.

Carmel: Oh, so that was part of the strategy. It wasn't just, say, the blackmail of the people that had control of the IRS, but also you used other-

Aaron: We used their victims.

Carmel: Yeah, got it.

Aaron: And once they were there, left out hanging out to dry, the Church just walked away from them. Cause we got what we wanted, we got that, we got that tax-exempt status.

Carmel: Right.

Aaron: And that's the mentality of the Sea Organisation. How do we get it? It's not just one man. And it's not all of them. I mean, you've got this guy, he's a Sea Org member, he's working in central files. He's filing, he's writing letters - he's doing his little part for king and country. He doesn't understand that he's just another part of this... machine, that is geared towards production at all costs. The moment anything interrupts that production, it's extracted like a bad tooth. Staff members, all Sea Org members that are leave, are left, L. Ron Hubbard told us to call them "degraded beings". Now, people like Marty and Mike and many of these executives out there were the very people on TV telling you how great it all was. And how all these people are, are, are dickheads. And Liars.

Carmel: Yep. Yep.

Aaron: And now they're out. What does it tell you? Not only did they not buy it, they don't want to buy it any more. They know what they did. They helped create that, and they should be sorry for it. And they should do something about it. And standing in front of a camera saying "David Miscavige slapped me on the wrist" - it's not a confession of what you did, Marty Rathbun, sitting on that ship.

Carmel: What do you mean, sitting on the ship?

Aaron: Eating, eating, eating a fuck- eating five-star meals on a ship by a five-star French chef? In the Caribbean? Oh, you poor soul! I feel so sorry for you that you get your own private cabin, while the other Sea Org members are stacked three high in rooms small enough for one human being, and we stack 'em nine high in there. And you want ME to feel sorry for YOU because you got slapped? You, you deserve that and a lot more, pal, you know. Because by the end of the day, you were happy to just accept your lot. You thought you had some inalienable right to be better than the other human beings. And you're not talking about that, Mr. Rathbun. You're not talking about the fact that you had a private steward, that came to your table and grovelled and asked you what you wanted to eat, and got it for you. You're not talking about the fact that you had chauffeurs. These are luxuries, even for regular human beings. And the regular Sea Org member looks upon you as a god. And you abused your privilege. You know, these guys give up fourteen hours of their life every day and go sometimes for years without a single day off, and they take one step, one foot wrong and, and they're treated like garbage. And then if they dare leave, they're called a 'degraded being' by Ron Hubbard himself. He told us to call them 'degraded beings'.

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

YouTube- the interview aaron saxton part 6 of 7.wmv

TRANSCRIPT - VIDEO 6

Aaron: Ron, who said if you join the Sea Org, you are one of the greatest people in the universe. And then after you join, he says you leave, you dare leave, you're a degraded being. How do you reconcile that? How are you supposed to leave? You don't, you're not told THAT when you join the Sea Org, "oh, by the way, if you leave, you're going to be labeled a degraded being". Not by ME, by Ron Hubbard!.

Carmel: Yeah.

Aaron: "You're a degraded being!" Call ME a degraded human? How, how DARE you? I gave my life to you people. I THOUGHT I was doing the right thing. I THOUGHT I was saving mankind based off of the premise that YOU presented to me. And you sold me a lie. And then I went around selling that lie knowing it was a lie. And that's the difference between a victim and an aggressor, and these people that are the aggressors, like me, that DID ask you to abort, DID ask you to walk away from your wife, your children, put your child in a cadet organisation and thumped them full of scientology for thirteen years, and then when I thought the picking was right, I'd take them out and put them in the Messenger Organisation and put them through a bunch of drills that told them how to get compliance. I didn't give them sex education. I didn't teach them the history of Earth. I didn't teach them literature or the fine works of Shakespeare or Frank Herbert or Orson Welles. I didn't get them to read Moby Dick, nooo I got them to read "Mission Earth" which is full of perverted sexual acts. And then I go and tell them "CAN'T have perversion, don't listen to your brain, don't listen to your instincts. Don't have friends - if you have friends you might have to comm-ev them one day". So, what do you do? Don't have friends. You have the facade of friendship in the Sea Org. Because at the end of the day you can know these guys and then all of a sudden, you're in trouble boom! and they don't want to know you. Is that a friendship? What kind of family is that?

Carmel: Mmm..

Aaron: Y'know, and then you get these dysfunctional people walking away from the Sea Org and people say well, you're crazy. (Laughs) I'm sorry, but who's the crazy one? Me for being there, or for you for not helping me to stop it?

Carmel: So these kids that you got for the CMO, that you recruited for CMO, um, how old were they when you recruited them?

Aaron: Typically thirteen, fourteen. You didn't like them too much older than that.

Carmel: Why?

Aaron: Because they started to develop their own instincts. At fifteen, the guy's fully into thinking about sex, women, going out, drinking, um, perhaps even, dare I say it, listening to music. Well, at thirteen you can cut them off on that because this is where he starts to develop what is pleasure to him. This is as he starts to take the shape of a young man or a young woman.

Carmel: Yeah.

Aaron: That's the perfect time to get them. What's pleasure? Pleasure is getting compliance. Pleasure is having people do what you tell them. Pleasure is being rewarded for an up statistic. You, you're literally taking their instincts and you, you, you're actually changing the way their brain works. You do this long enough, it's the Pavlov dog.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: K? Ring the bell, he knows it's dinnertime. In the Sea Org, ring the bell, you know you're going to get comm-ev'd. You know what to do - comply, comply, comply, comply. And the irony is that the prison's just up here in your mind. It's the same prison though for a civilian going along on a road, driving at 60 kilometres an hour, he has a choice: do I dare go to 80 kilometres an hour? Well, he can if he wants to, but how would you like to be in a place that knew EVERY time you drove at 80 kilometres an hour? You couldn't get away with it once. How would you feel then? As a, as a civilian, here in society, imagine if your government or council knew every thought you had. Every time, they put a black box on car and every time you drove over the speed limit, gave you a ticket, gave you a ticket, gave you a ticket. And knew every time that you had too much to drink and charge you with intoxication, even if you're in your own house - welcome to the world of the Sea Org. If you let it go on, that's the world you're looking at. Come in for your weekly sec-check. 'You drank too much, you were sick - ethics condition.' That's the world you're going to get. Orson Welles "1984" take a back step, this is something even greater than that. We're talking about not only controlling your actions, we've taken it back to the step of not only controlling your thoughts, but we've taken it back to preventing you from being able to generate that thought. That's a terrifying world.

Carmel: Yeah.

Aaron: If you dare let the Sea Org expand, anybody stands by and lets it get to that point, you have no one to blame but yourself, for something that will make communism look like a, like Bob's sideshow. We are talking about ultimate control. I can line up 100 Sea Org members and ask them a question and I'll get an identical answer, 'cause that's what they're told to think.

Carmel: Yeah.

Aaron: "Does scientology work?" "Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes." "Have you had wins?" "Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes." "What do you think about psychiatry?" "Bad bad bad bad bad bad bad." "What do you think about heavy petting before marriage?" "No no no no no no no no no." Clones. They do have personalities down there somewhere, but personality requires a means of expression. If you take that away - "Sorry, that's not an L. Ron Hubbard photo on your wall, replace it. Where did you get that quote from? Ah, from this book on this... replace with L. Ron Hubbard." You're going to get not just, not just going to get robots - ok, robots is a, is a mild thing - you're going to get something worse. A human being that still computes, but will only compute on what it's told to. That's worse than a robot because a robot is, has predefined parameters. But you're getting a free-thinking robot. That's terrifying. You want the world to be like the Sea Org? You don't think it's going to expand? Guess what? That's not what they think. Because within this society there is a certain individual that you can get - he was always the high school bully, he still wants to be the bully. And when you hire him and you recruit him, like I did - I loved them - make them a bully. Give him, "Hey, don't be dominated, dominate." Tyrone Webb - small little kid, laughed at, had a big head on his shoulders, literally a big head for his body, laughed at - "Get even, be a Messenger, tell them what to do, they'll scare, they'll be scared!" - and guess what? He loved it. Little Tyrone Webb, I trained him up. And there he goes and now he's there doing the same thing to human beings.

Carmel: Yeah.

Aaron: Yelling, screaming, intimidation. Why? Is he an evil kid? No. It's just that I took away the parts that allowed him to be free and I augmented that little trait there, that poor, poor little kid, he had that little thing about him, about being dominated and he didn't like it, so I gave him the solution. I said, "If you're dominated, dominate others." And the Sea Org will continue to grow and win if you allow this horrendous policy to exist that can train people to be like this - these human beings. Because when you talk to a Sea Org member and you ask them "Are you happy being in the Sea Org?" and he says "Yes I am", try to understand something, he MEANS that, he IS happy. Ok? He IS...

Carmel: Mm..

Aaron: ...because that's the way he's programmed. If you put a dog into a kennel this big, and that's all the dog knows, it learns to become happy with that environment. This is why we have human rights - acceptable standards of living. The Sea Org takes these children that have already been in the Sea Org, they already live in bunks at the age of three years old, this is what they are used to. They're used to not seeing family, they're used to not - you're not giving them something different, you're giving them the same and then when this kid grows up and becomes like David Miscavige, leader of the Sea Org, and you say to them "oh it's inhumane to live in a bunk." "No, it's not!" He wouldn't know what it was like not to.

Carmel: Mm..

Aaron: So, if that's the way you want the world to go just let the Sea Org grow. Do nothing, sit back. Let Scientologists - how many affidavits are out there? How many people are screaming? Y'know? Yes, I believe in religious freedom, I believe this guy has a right to be a Muslim, I believe this guy has a right to be a Catholic, but this is not what we're talking about here. I'm talking about their actions. I'm sick and tired of the Church of Scientology International putting forward their creed, going "This is what we write", but it's not what we do.

Carmel: Yeah.

Aaron: Y'know? Here's the difference; a Catholic priest rapes a child, the church itself finds this disturbing and DOES want that priest to be punished, they DO. They don't want their priests to rape!

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

YouTube- the interview aaron saxton part 7 of 7.wmv

TRANSCRIPT – VIDEO 7

Aaron: The difference in the Sea Org is that they DO want that priest to imprison your mind. We DO want control and compliance. We DO want you to go to this penal colony. We DO want to assign you conditions. We DO want to put a head on a pike each week and RPF somebody and hurt them. We DO - this is our policy. And they're lying because the church the Catholic church says "this is the bible", it's HAPPY if you preach the bible. But in Scientology, the creed, you may NOT apply the creed, and you may not apply the tech when you're a member of the Sea Org. You cannot because the policies clearly contradict everything that Scientology stands for. And THAT is a fraud. It's a lie. And the fact that you can have these people do this to other human beings and not consider consequence, like I did, is proof enough that there's something intrinsically and wrong and the systemic creation of the organisation in the first place.

Carmel: Got it.

Aaron: How could I do these things? How could I ask a woman to kill an unborn baby? How could I take this woman and send her away from her child and send her to Europe for two years and not allow any phone calls back to their family? How did I take all these people in the whole (Home?) Guarantee Building and tell them family time is canceled because you're a down statistic? This is the very church that preaches family values? That breathes, that talks about creation of a great society? Oh, I'm sorry, you must be, you must be talking about something else 'cause I haven't seen it. And every Sea Org member I, I know a great idea right now - get every Sea Org member in the world right now to do an affidavit about how they feel about it, go check on them in ten years. I guarantee you 80% of them will have left and have been declared.

Carmel: Yep.

Aaron: I guarantee it. I'll stake my life on it. I was one of those. Cause I would have fought you 'til the hell come home. I disconnected even from my own family to be the best messenger I could be. I sent my own brother to the rehabilitation force, into the penal colony for having thoughts and for having touched a woman. Now, if that's not a monster then please tell me what is?

Carmel: Got it. Hey thanks matey.

Aaron: Thanks for listening. Not a lot of people do.

Carmel: Nope. Good to have the info.

Aaron: I'd like some other people to come forward. I'd like some other people that were in positions similar to mine to admit that we just weren't victims, we did things. We did ask for those things to be done to other staff and we did them.

Carmel: Got it.

Aaron: And be responsible for their actions. Even if it means admitting that they were monsters. Because deep down none of us were. We thought we were doing something right.

Carmel: And you were a part of that machine.

Aaron: Yeah...

Carmel: Created by the machine.

Aaron: I was created by the machine and then I went off to create more. And I'm really sorry to those people that I got in there and I created them. Because I've run into a couple, and this is after I'd left, and I'm saddened to see how they've turned out as human beings. Because there's almost nothing human left in them. It's just almost nothing there, just compliance and it's like a 24-hour police officer with no, with no heart. And, stay there too long and I don't know how, I still haven't been rehabilitated - I still have trouble, I still have nightmares, I still think about things that happened there. I have dreams of being dominated and dominating. And I still have that switch in my mind I can turn off and I want it to go. I don't like being like that.

Carmel: Mmm..

Aaron: Y'know I want my emotions to be real. It's really hard to have real emotions when they are forbidden for six years.

Carmel: Yeah, especially at that time. When you were so young, fifteen to twenty-two or something...

Aaron: Those were my formative years as a human being. It's where, it's where humans find out what they want to do in life and go off and explore and start careers. But, my career was to hurt you. And I enjoyed it. And I'm sickened that I did. But back then I wasn't, but now it's really hard to reconcile that other human being I see in my dreams or sometimes coming out in an argument or a debate with some other person. He just jumps out there and I'll look at him going uh 'Aaron how could you look at yourself and think of yourself as two people - you're clearly the same person.' The question I've got for myself is 'am I a good person that went bad or was I always just a bad bastard that just was given the chance to be even worse?' Which one is it? And if I'm even asking myself the question then I need help. And I'm not the only one out there having that same question. Y'know? Marty and Mike, Tom DeVocht - I know we had good times in the Sea Org. I worked with these people, we had great times, we had fun. But take a step back and look at what you did. You created an atmosphere of fear and loathing and, and family separations and you destroyed all family values and, and all those things that make us human, that got us to this great part of life that we know - artistic, singing, loving, dancing, music - all these things that make us human we, we, we stripped them from people around us and we made it ok to be less than human. I need, I need those people to come forward and talk and admit that it's ok to talk about it. It's not ok you ever did it, nothing will ever make it ok, pal - sorry, nothing ever will. If you can't live with that then I suggest you reflect on yourself and ask yourself 'what is a human being? What is a conscience? And what is morality, really?'

Carmel: Mmm..

Aaron: There's an answer there. You might not, you might have, you might have a, a couple of tears shed when you find out you shouldn't have done these things. And you'll have an even bigger tear when you find out that you enjoyed it. And you might look at yourself and want to kill yourself for it. And end your life because of what you put other people through. You don't have to do that, you just have to stop it being done to others now. So step forward, talk. If you lose your, if you're a scientologist and you're in good standing, and you have the potential to lose them, understand one thing: the Sea Org is promising heaven, when in reality we're all going to hell according to them. And all of your mates will be there. If you have to disconnect now, to make your stand and be heard, then do it. One day, down the road, your friends will come and join you 'cause we're all on the same side of the fence - it's just someone else telling you that we're not.

Carmel: Got it. Hey mate, thanks for your honesty.

Aaron: Alright, thank you.

Carmel: Cheers.

 

[AnonyMary]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

Thank you!!

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

INCOMM Security Breach 1/3

YouTube- incomm security breach 1995 PART ONE of THREE.wmv

TRANSCRIPT

Aaron: Yes, so uh, I was asked to give information regarding the uh, INCOMM Mission of 1995 to the, uhm, PAC Base. What happened is that, uh, on St. Valentines day in 1995 the, uhm, CMO International and RTC moved into INCOMM to shut it down. Uh, what had been discovered was a fairly substantial security breach where a member of INCOMM had put information regarding, uh, very particular documents out on the Internet. The reason why I'm talking about this: this is possibly the, in my opinion, the greatest violation of basic fundamental human rights, uh, ever in the history of the Sea Org that I witnessed personally.

What happened is on that day, uh, Liz Ingber, one of the more senior, long-term Sea Org members, uh, took a team into INCOMM and without warning locked all the doors, uh, to the entire INCOMM location in the Pacific Base in Los Angeles. None of the staff knew what was going on, uh, and they were all kept in the dark. Over at CMO IXU [Int Extension Unit], over at the other location of 6331 Hollywood Boulevard we knew what was about to happen. Uh, the reason why we knew is that we were told there would be a large number of replacements probably needed for the INCOMM staff after the mission had been through with them. We knew that there was probably going to be only one or two security breaches but the uh, the fact of the matter was that the process of discovery of those security breaches was probably going to result in a couple of the staff members wanting to leave, or being required to leave.

Anyway, so the staff were all hoarded into an office and in another, uh, office all the missioners were waiting for them. And what they did is, the staff were one by one put through the office, told to empty out their pockets, take off their shoes and so forth, and then they were each separately interrogated. Uh, what happened was is that the, they knew that a modem over at INCOMM had been used to transfer information out, and now they wanted to know which INCOMM operator had done it, and also whether any of the other INCOMM staff were in on it.

None of the INCOMM staff were allowed to make any phonecalls to family, none of the INCOMM staff were permitted to see any of their family members in the Sea Org or even their children. At that point all communication was barred, even between INCOMM staff themselves. Over the next several weeks, all of them were made to sleep there in INCOMM, and there were guards posted on all the doors and they were not permitted to leave. The food was brought to the location and they were given meals, and made to sleep there in INCOMM, totally against their rights. They, all of them asked to leave, all of them were refused to leave. Uhm, they made repeated requests to leave, it just wasn't going to happen, not until we found out what that security breach was.

It was strange for other members of the uhm, of AOLA and other Sea Org members at that base because they knew that all of a sudden all of the INCOMM staff had just disappeared and they knew that there were guards posted at the doors. And even the Estates Project Force, which was the basic training for the Sea Org, knew about this because they were asked to take food to the door, where the food was then taken through, and all the trash was taken out.

The, eventually personal hygiene became a problem because they weren't showering, so what happened is we had guards take, uh, all the INCOMM staff one by one up to receive a shower, and they were only permitted three minutes for personal hygiene, and then they were brought back down to INCOMM and locked up again. Uhm, what then followed was, uh, later on, uhm, some of the people just lost their minds and they were just, they weren't just security checked or interrogated by one person, they were security checked and interrogated by another and another and another and then another, uhm, on this. And most of them didn't make it through this.

I remember seeing some of them, uh, later on afterwards that we had to replace, cause my job was to provide the, the resources, the personnel resources, uh, to replace other staff in the Sea Org that could then go and fill the spots that had now been lost in INCOMM, because... they just lost their minds. Y'know, or lost their families? It was, it was horrible. And some of them were from international locations, they didn't have any means or resources to survive, so they took the option of going on to the RPF. I mean, it was disgusting and then they were committed to never discuss it, ever again with anybody.

That was my involvement in it, and then it got worse for me, because all the computer systems around the world were considered, uh, to be defunct, and susceptible to attack. And there were three missionaires selected to go around the world. One was Eric Profittlich, he was to do Europe. The other one was.. uhm, a Mexican fellow... he was the Qualifications Director at CMO and he was asked to go to do the South American front, to re-encrypt the computers there. And the final mission was to go to the Flag Land Base and the Freewinds ship in the Caribbean, and I was selected for that. Very unusual mission, uh, no-one was to know about it. No-one was to know who I was seeing, no-one was to know I was a Sea Org member, I was to go as a civilian, undercover, uhm, I was to take the encryption tapes in briefcase handcuffed to my hand, and I was to travel to the Flag Land Base, provide those to... I believe it was Greg Johnson, at Flag Land Base, to re-encrypt the computers there, then I was to go to the ship.

But early on, troubles started to surface. First one is, there were no written Mission orders. The only people that knew about my mission was Luca Saccomanno, Fleur Thomas, W. D. C. [WatchDog Committe] so-and-so, Amy Mortland, uh, and the RTC reports officer who I never knew the name, I just spoke to him over a phone. No Mission orders were in writing, uh, the mission was never to be revealed to another human being, the mission was never to be discussed. What happened is, the mission's fired out, in my briefing I was told that there was a, a high risk potential of being intercepted, to have the tapes, uh, removed from my person, and I was told that in that event I was to, I was to place my life on the line to protect those tapes, because those tapes represented the, the very security of the Sea Org.

Uhm, I was due to fire out at midnight, and this was around about, uh, early March. Uh, I was due to fire out around midnight, and I did not fire out because I lost my passport (laughs). Uh, that was entirely my fault, it was no Sea Org paranoia involved there at all, I, I misplaced it and I, eventually I found it. Uhm, but they said security had been breached because I had fired late. And as a result I was to take a number of plane trips through, uh, down to Houston, Dallas, Pensacola, uh, New Orleans and all these other locations in order to get down to Miami, and then from uh, but before Miami go to Florida. Uhm, it was a highly paranoid state of affairs.

Uhm, I violated my Mission orders and for some reason, I don't know why to this day, but uh I packed up my mission uniform anyways and took it along as luggage. I just wanted to have it with me. I think it ended up saving my life, having that, uhm, uniform with me and I'll get to that later. I arrived at the Flag Land Base around about 4am and went to the uh, to the Clearwater building where I met Greg Johnson. He took the tapes from me, went into the computer room and then he came back out about a minute later. And this seemed strange to me because I knew myself with the INCOMM computers that the, the encryption time would have to be within the five to ten minute margin, he couldn't possibly have encrypted the systems with the new information so fast. And that was the first alarm bell that rang off in my head.

But he gave me the tape back and said "Now this is for the Flag Land Ba- uh, for the ship." So I went out to a berthing and I crashed there, uh, in a berthing there for a few hours, and then I was taken out to the airport where I flew to Miami, and then from Miami I took Aruba Airlines and flew to Aruba.

This was where I was first intercepted. Uh, the gentleman on board the flight made it a point to come and sit next to me, uh, he was asking me a lot of questions and it became quite clear to me that he knew exactly what I was doing on the, uhm, airline with the, the suitcase being strapped to my hand. I told him to, to get lost, I told him I didn't want to speak to him, blah blah blah. When I landed in Aruba, I went through the gates of clearance and an unusual thing happened, uh...

 

[RSG]

Kha Khan, can you go back and update any of my transcript posts that have "fixed names" as the edit reason at the bottom? Because you just posted one where the main names hadn't been checked yet, and I replaced it with a better version. :3

 

[Kha Khan]

Kha Khan, can you go back and update any of my transcript posts that have "fixed names" as the edit reason at the bottom? Because you just posted one where the main names hadn't been checked yet, and I replaced it with a better version. :3

Sure. Just let me know which one(s) to fix and where I can find the, if that is ok.

 

[RSG]

It's just the same thread you got all those other posts, I edited over the tops of the errors. You'll need to replace the INCOMM 1/3 one, the rest should be fine as they are.

 

[Kha Khan]

It's just the same thread you got all those other posts, I edited over the tops of the errors. You'll need to replace the INCOMM 1/3 one, the rest should be fine as they are.

Done. Thanks for your hard work. I'll cross-post the remaining three right now.

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

YouTube- INCOMM Security Breach 1995 PART TWO of THREE.wmv

TRANSCRIPT

Aaron: One reason they were very suspicious of the tapes that I had and the partition where you go through to get your stamp to go on the isle was sealed off and two armed guards took position behind me and had machine guns pointed at me, and they remained there until I finished answering the questions. And I answered the questions and I was allowed to go through. When I got outside, uhm, I was met by a man I didn't know, he was clearly NOT a Scientologist, uhm, and, he knew who I was, I don't know how he knew that, and he took me to a bar called The Talk of The Town. And I stayed there because the ship wasn't, hadn't docked yet, it was to dock at midnight.

Midnight came, and I was walking up the gangplank, uh, up the ship, and Greg Wilhere pops out. And, now, he's the Inspector General at the time, second only to David Miscavige in the Sea Org. He popped out, shook my hand, said "Thanks for coming aboard" and just rushed me into the place. There was no introduction to the Captain or anything, I was just taken straight in. I was taken into the uhm, into the uh, the offices, and Greg Wilhere briefed me that he had been on the ship during security checking, that Marty Rathbun was on the ship, uh, going through conditions and handlings, which I found shocking because the idea that Marty Rathbun would have doubts on the Sea Org... was just unreal for me. I mean, the man was a solid icon of the tech. It blew me away to hear that.

But anyway, Greg Wilhere told me that he had security checked the entire ship, and he told me that they believed that the REAL security breach they were REALLY after was actually on the ship, and he told me to take caution in my mission. So I immediately grabbed, there were two computer operators on the ship: uh, one for the ship, and then one just for the IAS. And, I forget the name of the man for the ship, but I'll never forget the man from the IAS, uh, it was, his name was Viet Le Quang.

What happened was, I went to uh, the offices, the pier offices and there I had the encryption done, uh, by the ship operator. And I quizzed him for a time and finally he admitted that there was a way to breach this encryption tape and he told me the exact procedure for it. I asked him if Viet Le Quang would know this, and he said he would. So what I did is I then called in Viet Le Quang, into the offices, and put him through the same procedure, and quizzed him. And he wouldn't admit that there was a way to breach the encryption tapes. So finally I told him how to do it, based off of what the operator had not only told me, but shown me, and Viet Le Quang doubted it, went red in the face, and said "Oh, I don't think you can really do that."

Bang! That was it. HCO Bring order, you're under house arrest. Picked up the phone: "Security, HCO Bring order NOW, computer room." Bang! Security comes, collects up Viet, Viet Le Quang and off he goes. I immediately tell the computer operator not to leave the office; I then go and see Greg Wilhere, I tell Greg Wilhere what happened, he goes "Right. Go to your cabin and wait there." So I went to my cabin, waited there.

Three hours later, Greg Wilhere has messengers come and get me, I come and see, uh, Greg, and listen what he told me. Now this is paranoia, ok! You have to believe... the... this is what he told me, ok. You cannot reconcile this event. He told me that Viet Le Quang had a history, that he had just discovered on sec check, that he had worked for the NSA, he worked for the FBI and possibly even the CIA. This is what he told me.

It blew me away because Greg Wil- Greg Wilhere just told me he sec checked everybody on the ship! So how did he miss that? This is Greg Wilhere! But, you don't question it, Greg Wilhere just told me "We're gonna, we're gonna fix up Viet Le Quang" and I said "Well, he should be beached" and he goes "No, he knows something right now" and I said "Well, we'll beach him afterwards" and Greg said "We certainly will". So I left it at that, you know. What do I do now on the mission? You know, this was not in the mission orders. He said to wait there in my cabin again, so I waited in the cabin.

He called me back to the office and told me I was not to leave the ship, there was to be no communication back to Los Angeles at all, that I was to only make one call to the RTC Reports Officer and that was via a mobile phone, ok? And no communications were to be gone off the ship with my name on it. Ok, I called up the RTC Reports Op. and he said "find the solution to the security breach". So I came up with one, which involved another encryption tape, being kept in a file safe room which was kept in a Class, uh, the OT8 Course, uh, folder room on the ship, and that the um, the security would have to escort the uh, computer operator daily to go grab the encryption tape. A, a pretty weak solution, but my other follow-ups included a honeypot idea, and a tracking system for INCOMM to deploy against future hacks. Uh, that's quite a lengthy explanation on that, and I gave that, uhm, in writing to Greg Wilhere, and he kept it.

What then happened is uh, over the next day I spent on the ship, uhm, I don't recall a great deal of what happened, I, I, I simply, I just don't. I was given a tour of the ship by the Deputy Commanding Officer of CMO on the ship, and post that I was told and given a call on the mobile by somebody, not the RTC Reports Officer, just to go leave the ship, which was just still in port in Aruba, and there would be a car waiting for me and I was to leave. Ok? And that was to happen around 6 or 7am or something like that.

What then happened is I went back to my cabin, and in the middle of the night the Deputy Commanding Officer of CMO Ship came to my cabin and she told me to put, that the package of my uniform had arrived from the airport, and sh- her first question was "Why wasn't it carry-on luggage?" and I told her because I had the briefcase, and they wouldn't let me take two packages on board the airline; so it had to be stowed under, even though it only weighed two kilograms. Uhm, she said it'd been returned and she wanted wear it. And I said I couldn't do that, it was a, it was a confidential mission, nobody was supposed to know that I'm even a Messenger. And she said, uhm "Well, I think it would be a good idea if you did wear this uniform and walk around the ship."

She appealed to my ego, because she said "Well, this could slap the crew and get them better producing." I mean, it appealed to my ego because at the time, uh, Greg Wilhere himself was on the ship. If that guy isn't going to get you producing, noth- no-ones going to get you producing. But, she got to my ego, so I did. I walked around the ship, and did this, and then I went out on their, the deck early in the morning, and I had a Cuban cigar on the deck to celebrate the end of the mission. The, the, uh, the following, that morning-

Oh, oh, while I was on the deck of the ship, a photo was taken of me from one of the uh, from the top deck. I didn't know who took the photo, it was a polaroid shot. I just heard this woman saying "Got you..." I assumed it was the DCO, the Deputy Commanding Officer on the ship, uh, for CMO, but I didn't know. And I never saw her again.

Uhm, what then happened is I then went back to the cabin, showered, went out to the airport, and took a whole series of planes to Los Angeles; but before I got back to Los Angeles, the same man that was on the, uhm, plane flight from Miami to Aruba was on the flight that I took to Houston. And he confronted me. And I uh, I decided I had to deal with this, he was getting aggressive. I had tapes that were given to me by Greg Wilhere to take back to Los Angeles; I didn't know what was on the tapes. So, I confronted him in a bar, uh, at the Houston airport - it was a stopover - and I don't remember what happened. I, I just do not know what happened.

The next thing I know, I'm in Los Angeles, I'm at the airport and there's no car waiting for me. I call up External Communications at the Hollywood Guarantee Building and go "Hey! It's Aaron. Where my car?" And they're like "Sorry, sir, what car?" "I've landed! Where's my car to get back to the building?" Like, "Sorry sir, I didn't receive any request to pick you up." "Ok, well can you come and get me?" "Ok." They come out, get me, they drive me back.

When I get back, I don't go to my berthing straight away, I go straight to the building to report the mission completion, and uhm, I get to the building, walk in the front door, I go up to level uh, s- level six, where CMO was located at that particular time. Or no, level seven. Level seven or six... seven. And uhm... my security card doesn't work any more. Well that's strange! So I wait, and wait for a Messenger to walk out the door, and they're like "Oh, Aaron, you're back! Where have you been, I had no idea." I walk in the door, and uh -

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

YouTube- INCOMM Security Breach 1995 PART THREE.wmv

TRANSCRIPT


Aaron: Uh, I walk straight into the, Luca's office, Deputy Commanding Officer for CMO, and he just looks so surprised to see me "Aaron! Haha, you're back!" Like, "Yeah, didn't you know? Hey, what's with my security card? It's cancelled or something." Y'know, and he diverts the conversation, and I look on the desk and he's got all my files on the desk. And I missed a withhold on him, there's something in the files he doesn't want me to see, and he shoves the files to the left side. I can see that there's a piece of goldenrod there, but I don't know what it is.

And then he pulls out this photo. It's the Polaroid that was taken of me on the ship! Which means that the person who was on that ship must have taken a Polaroid - it's not something you can send by email, it's a flash Polaroid photo - which means that someone else had brought back that photo as fast as I could get to Los Angeles. And alarm bells started ringing off in my head. I didn't get it, I didn't understand what was going on.

A- anyways, I um, then went back up to the International Clearance Office, because that's where we we- were working on, on the um, the clearances for all the new INCOMM staff. And I was told up there "Aaron, you're being immediately cleared. Don't tell anybody you're being cleared. You're going to the INT Base, you're going now. We've got to get your clearances done in 24 hours." I said "Why? Wh- wh-, why am I going to INT?" "You have to go. You have to go now. So you're not the HCO Chief any more, you're not on post any more, ok? You're going to INT." "Oh, ooh, ok. Going to INT, great."

And that night, walking back to my berthing, my brain started to send alarm bells. Why was my security card cancelled? Why was there no car? Who was that guy that followed me from the ship? Who was the guy on the Aruban Airlines flight? And alarm bells just went off and off and off.

And I blew that morning. I took off. And uh, the first phone call I made, after a day being out, I wanted to speak to Luca Saccomanno, cause I knew they'd be looking for me. And I called into the Hollywood Guarantee Building on the main line number, and when I got to reception the receptionist said "Oh, sir, are you calling from Europe?" I went "No." She goes "Oh, you're not on, you're not in Europe on mission?" "No, I'm here in Los Angeles, can I please speak with the Deputy CO CMO please?" "What the hell's going on?" [not sure if Aaron or receptionist's words] Ok, I, I hung up the phone.

I then called up, we had a travel company that uh, did all the flights for all our missions and stuff, so I called them up and they, and I had a security code that, which hadn't been cancelled yet. And I booked a first-class ticket back to New Zealand, from LAX. And I booked it to leave in two hours, and I got it. Maybe three or fours hours, actually, to be more accurate. And, I didn't have any intention of going on the flight. I just went to the LA terminals, I waited across the road, because I wanted to find out how many people that they would send out after me. And I was shocked. A van pulled up, a van pulled up, and Jeff Porter, Sue Porter, and CMO staff, and a lot of OSA staff JUMP out of the van, I'm talking nine people, and came RUNNING into the LA terminal after me. And Jesus Christ they REALLY wanted me to not go on that flight.

But I knew I couldn't run away from them forever, I'd have to go back. So I went running around Los Angeles. Called up my mum in New Zealand and she told me they'd called there for, looking for me. And I called back into the building, spoke to Luca and he said "If you don't come in right now, we're sending 20 people off to Australia, we're sending people off to New Zealand, to talk to your family, we're gonna find you." And I told him to call it off, I'll come in.

I came back in, and what happened between March 1995 and the end of my career with the Sea Org in January 1996 is just the most insulting story of paranoia and control you've ever imagined. And I'll go into it another time. But I wanted to keep this about the INCOMM mission, and the facts of the matter there. We are talking about the greatest violations of human rights, that all those members of INCOMM staff around the world, uh, suffered, and... if you want to talk about false imprisonment, and, uh, blackmail: go find the INCOMM staff that were hassled and harassed in February 1995 and find out what happened to them. Their stories are all true, as unbelievable as they may sound - I was there and I helped with this, there's nothing fictitious about it.

This happened right in the heart of Los Angeles: first class country, where human rights are celebrated and appreciated, and right there, in East Hollywood, just off Hollywood Boulevard, these guys were trapped and contained for some periods that exceeded more than a month [ed: 4 months for some]. And there's no justification for it. There is just nothing you can imagine that could tell you the horror those staff went through, because they were bullied and controlled for...

I don't know, I think some of them thought they were going to die. Some of them wanted to kill themselves; it came up in their security checks, they wanted to end their lives because of the, the punishment they received, for even ALLOWING a fellow INCOMM staff member to cause a breach was now their fault and they were all punished severely for it. And I want the Governor of Los Angeles to launch an inquiry [with?] the affidavits and statements from not just the Sea Org victims on that case, but from the people like Liz Ingber, the Bolstadts of this world, Deputy Senior CS International and the RTC security staff that did, did that horrific sec checking on all those people and just absolutely screwed with their minds. And I think everybody wants to see that too. It's not just me. But you wanted a specific example of a, the greatest human rights violation in the Sea Org, that ever happened? There's your date, there's your time, and I wish I could give you the names of the INCOMM staff members, but you know what, they've already spoken out on the internet, but nobody believes them. It's all true.




To compare, victim's perspective: http://www.lermanet.com/dangarvin/

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Kha Khan,

Thank-you for dong this.

Fantastic.

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP: Re: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

YouTube- Information on the Hollywood Guarantee Building Part One.wmv


transcripts by someone else:

Question: So you were in the Sea Organisation at the HGB in Los Angeles. Can you tell me about that?

Aaron: Yeah I was there in the Hollywood Guaranty Building, that's what it's called, it's owned by the Sea Organisation or the Church of Scientology International and it's located at 6331 Hollywood Blvd. It's pretty much the public face of management of the Sea Org and I was there in 19, late '92, '93, '94, '95, and early '96.

Question: Ok. So, do the general public or indeed even Sea Org members, know the full scope of the operations there?

Aaron: I think they've got some idea of the scope - what happens there. I mean, from, it would be interesting to know what people know and what they don't know. As an example, generally in the command channels of scientology the HGB is seen to hold this middle management, the Flag Command Bureau - y'know which you have one section there, the Flag Bureau, which runs all the management offices around the world in the different continents. Then you have WISE International, Scientology Missions International, ABLE International, the Office of Special Affairs International, the International Training Organisation - which then trains all the administrators in all the different organisations around the planet.

What I don't think people know, I don't really know how relevant it is, but in that building, it's twelve stories, and what a lot of people don't know is that this whole building is very important to the operations internationally. Not just because it holds what's known as middle management, but it represents an unusual situation in the Sea Organisation. Here's an example...

Up at international level you have Gold and what they call the "Watchdog Committee," although it really is just Division 4A of CMO International, and over here you have the Executive Director International, located outside the Riverside and Int Base and so forth. And considering there's a lot of different organisations everywhere, but in reality they all stem through the HGB. Any personnel going to international go through the HGB. All communications from any organisation go to the HGB then they go out through another organisation or they go from there to international. In other words, HGB is like a stem on a tree where we have scientology below as the root system, the liaison offices, the orgs, the missions, and then it stems very sharply to the HGB and then from there it goes out up to International Management.

Some things that people may not know about the function of the HGB - we all know it's got the L Ron Hubbard Life Exhibition at the bottom, but what a lot of people don't know is that there is a secret LRH apartment, not an office, an LRH apartment on the 10th floor. And it's on the Northeast side of the building, Northeast corner of the building, and it takes up almost 1/3 to half of the entire floor space. This is been built on a slight, if that's the blueprint of the building, the offices have been built on a slight slant like this, and what happens is that the elevators open up on the floor and the most Northern Eastern, the most Eastern elevator actually doesn't open on the 10th floor unless you have the special key.

And what annoys me about this is that this apartment was built for Ron Hubbard, who's dead, and not only that the cost of it is in the millions of dollars. We have a gigantic lounge there, a walk-in closet for him, a gigantic bedroom, a walk-in shower that's just laid in with Italian marble, it's got some of Ron's personal possessions there such as his jumper that he wore in the Saint Hill photo, some of his old razors, a closet full of clothes - they're not fakes, they're the real things. The Italian marble alone is probably around $2-300 USD a square foot. I mean it's some of the most expensive marble you, this is L Ron Hubbard's apartment, it's not just his office. We have gold-plated cutlery, we have 2-ft wide candles, we have animal furs, Roman-depicted sculptures across the top of his bed - what annoys me about this is that the Sea Org and scientology keep crying poor.

And I know for a fact that in 1996, we had over $1,000 million USD in the reserves figure, ok, and I got that from the person who was in charge of reserves. Ok? That's how much cash they had. And this is had, had to have cost several million dollars to make and no one ever used it. And we've got Sea Org members sitting out there in rooms, ok, 10ft by 10ft, that are housing six to nine staff members and they're told the money is better spent on, on, on building organisations and this and that, and building up the war chest against these enemies of scientology. And we've got this apartment built - it's even got the messenger office where there are computers set up in case Ron comes back, where these messengers can work, and this is utterly ridiculous. It's got a private kitchen - it's HUGE. Like an apartment like this in Los Angeles would just cost millions for such a, for such a thing.

That annoys me.

But away from that, and talking about the operations of the building, this is how it really works: the CMO, the Commodores Messenger Org at the building, is known as the International Extinction Unit (IXU) and that holds several departments that are very uncommon to any other operation in the Sea Org. Before I go through what those are, I just want to explain that your average staff member is sitting is his office doing his thing and he sits there all day doing his thing. If he's an auditor he's in the room, if he's a course director he's in the course room, if he's in Division 2 in central files he's over here. HCO's are always running, HCO's staff are going everywhere all the time, they're in charge of all communications, personnel and their affects. So they're always around and HCO staff see everything - they are the police. And CMO is the police of management. In the CMO there's no real boundaries, everybody in CMO knows what the other messenger is doing. It's like an HCO and even that has its own HCO, a Hubbard Communications Office, which polices the messengers themselves, but usually messengers don't require much policing. And it acts like one unit that thinks like one person and acts - that's why messengers get things done.

Now, there are several departments, I was saying, that are in CMO that are not in any others. First of all, Flag Bureau is responsible for communications between organisations and they handle the traffic called particles such as folders or what have you. Any information going to International Management is what's known as the External Communications of HCO, then CMO, and we have a personal driver which drives up to International Management with the package containing anything for International Management and comes back.

So CMO always knows everything that's going into management. And that's on the Northeast of the building outside the loading dock area just inside there, that's where the CMO's communications are established so they can quickly go outside and drive these particles off. Ironically, although he's a messenger with status he actually wears a blue boiler suit and looks very much like a labourer. But in actual fact he's in charge of the most important communications in existence - everything going international and back. So you wouldn't know, you would think he was a labourer, he's not, he's actually a very senior messenger with a very high security clearance - in fact, that person has the highest security clearance in all of CMO. Me, as the HAS, the HCO chief, above him, I didn't even have the security clearance. Because he has to go to locations like international, archives, with these materials and no one can open those up.

Now the other division of CMO that a lot of people don't know about is that every single communication by email and by telex goes through what's called the Authorisation Verification and Correction unit (AVC). And that's located in CMO. The reason why it's located there is that while management have their instructions, it's only CMO that know whether or not those orders should really go out. And that's where they cut communications or alter communications or decide if those programs are inappropriate at that point in time. So the CMO is very much on the communication lines of the entire planet. The other department that they have is at, uh - recently, back in '95, and it's probably still the case to this day, CMO was on the 10th floor with the L Ron Hubbard office and the L Ron Hubbard apartment. Then RTC decided to have an office there so the messengers moved to the next floor down and then RTC became established over there and their offices were even more - well not more extensive, but almost as labour intensive. (cut)

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP: Re: Aaron Saxton: Interview Vids + Transcripts

YouTube- information on the hollywood guarantee building part two.wmv

Transcript:

(cont'd)

Aaron: ...we, stainless steel and so forth, just a ridiculous amount of money was spent establishing their offices which, by the way, RTC didn't pay for as a corporate entity. Scientology International paid for it which is actually illegal. Ok? RTC should have paid for it, but instead Church of Scientology International management paid for it. And all those offices there were set up, so now you've got the L Ron Hubbard apartment plus the RTC office overtaking the North - I said Northeast before - the L Ron Hubbard apartment is actually Northwest and the communications of CMO are Northwest. The RTC office is Northeast. So, sorry about that.

Ok, that's probably about it, the security is like kinda beneath, in the basement, along with all the files of the building that are considered valuable, are kept in the basement down there - which are accessible as you walk in, you'll have a staircase at the end. One that goes up to International Training Room and the other staircase will lead you down to the basement where all security is maintained, special files kept - HUGE files, and that's where all secret, confidential materials are disposed of - down there.

It should be noted that that location down there also houses the entire library of all Flag Orders ever in existence. Every HCOB ever done, even the ones that other Sea Org members can't see, even the secret roll-back, even the OSA network orders are actually kept downstairs. Ok? So the mimeo - the people in charge of copying these are very carefully selected. And there's separate files kept for different, the different specialised custom-fitted shelves in. Also, that's where the giant shredder machine is where we shredded documents. I don't know how really interesting this information is, it's for somebody who asked about the HGB, I wanted to tell them about it.

In terms of the security of the building it's not overly that fantastic. Obviously, the 10th floor has fairly substantial security on the windows, motion detectors, glass shutter detectors, and thermal detectors on the 10th floor. Above that is the Office of Special Affairs which are completely cut off from the rest of the building. Should be probably made a point now that even messengers were not particularly permitted to go up to the Office of Special Affairs. OSA International has and always be run directly from RTC. Yes, we had an OSA program operator that ran programs in OSA, but these were mainly regarding establishment.

Now here's the interesting thing - communications - something people need to know. In normal organisations, communications are passed via the written document. In CMO, these special training drills that get you to learn how to fundamentally learn an entire set of orders that could be pages in length and these drills specially teach you, now this is cool, to be able to convey these verbally without a single alteration. And you pass the drill when you can have ten people and you can pass a massive order with complexities through ten different people and, at the end, it gets there exactly how it started - with no alteration whatsoever. It's not a verbatim drill, that's the secret. It's the ability to identify the key points in the order and be able to convey them. Ok? It's not a verbatim drill ok? And that's the secret of it. Because what happens when RTC orders Office of Special Affairs to find out this information and then they ask CMO to get that information and then they ask SMI International to do something and ABLE International to do something, they seem disrelated activities, but it'll all come together when a verbal order is given by RTC. And all RTC staff members are messengers - you cannot be in RTC before you're a messenger.

When it comes time for the verbal order, that's when messengers visit. That's when phone calls are made and the orders are conveyed and it's known that they'll be carried out because of the verbatim drilling. That's not verbatim so, David Miscavige would call up and say "right, go to Scientology Missions International grab this folder do this, do this, do this, do this, do this, and then give it to OSA International who's then going to give it to a PI and do this and this and this and this and this, and this, this, this, this, and this is the out - this is how it outcomes blah blah blah blah blah and on and on it goes, that messenger can take that and convey it precisely and get it done and that's the value of messengers - to carry out, not written orders, verbal orders.

So, why does the policy in the Sea Org say "no verbal orders?" It's a total contradiction. David Miscavige walks around giving verbal orders non-stop. And so does Mark Ingram, Mark Yagar, and all these other characters. BUT, they are carried out by messengers. And this is where people who are trying to intercept communications fail. Because all they see is all this traffic. All they see is this, this order, and this order going there, they don't see anything that would ever prove anything that's because these orders are verbal. Often this is why missions are sent out to orgs. Not necessarily just to do what's on the mission orders, but to convey a slew of orders that need to be followed in that organisation that they will not put on normal standard traffic lines.

So this gives you a better idea of the importance of the HGB. Fundamentally, it's a weakness in the Sea Org because if staff keep disappearing from the HGB you have to bring people up from Continental Liaison Offices. And once they get to that, they go through training programs that can take 6-12 months to get them to really work properly. The only other solution if there's a mass exodus out of the middle management, it's to get staff from international. We don't like doing that in there - sorry, said "we don't like that" - see, back then we didn't like doing that because the staff up in international had years of experience, they're thoroughly indoctrinated, and once they're brought out of the International base and into the HGB there's always a risk that they can get exposed to media, to life, to seeing cars and traffic, music, and so forth.

So, International management really hated sending staff down because they would often lose them. So, in the attack on the Sea Org, the HGB is a pivotal point. Because it takes so long to replace the staff - it's not like you're taking the Flag Land Base or Celebrity Centre or AO or CLO (Continental Liaison Office) - it's the HGB that holds the key. When that falls apart trouble occurs on a worldwide scale because International management finds it very hard to run the organisations directly. That's what the HGB is there for, is there for, is to basically diversify the traffic.

Yup. So, I hope that helps, I hope that gives some information that may not have been known before.

 

[Kha Khan]

PDF Transcripts from WWP

PDF Transcripts from WWP with thanks:

I uploaded some pdfs of the transcripts. They're much easier to read than these posts!

Transcript PDFs

 

[Kha Khan]

From WWP with gratitude:

YouTube- General Response to Public Questions Part One.wmv

TRANSCRIPT - GENERAL RESPONSE TO PUBLIC QUESTIONS PART ONE

Aaron: Since I launched my Youtube videos, I've had a lot of people send me messages about their experience in the Sea Org, some public scientologists have made comment - and I'm getting mostly agreement that what I'm saying is true, but there are people that are conveying to me that when they were in the Sea Org that wasn't their experience. They thought it was more freer than that, they, they're telling me "you said, Aaron, that we couldn't listen to music" and I'm getting emails back saying "well we could listen to music." Ok? And I just want to point out that yes, I've painted this picture of, of the Sea Org which is quite dark and gloomy, but try to understand something: I was in the Hubbard Communications Office (HCO) and this staff member might have just been in Division 4 and just been doing fine for two years without much harassment. This is quite possible - I don't doubt it at all.

But I think you'll find in general, over, all-in-all, that what I've said will hold true across the board here because one person out of Division 4 says "well y'know once I saw a staff member get into so much trouble that they had something done to them." So, in their minds they're saying "well I just saw it once." I'd just like to point out that if you're at the Flag Land Base and there's a thousand staff there and you're closely working with twenty staff and you see it happen to one staff member, that's fifty staff that are going through that. And people in the Hubbard Communications Office are the ones that are always walking around the org, seeing these things and putting these things together.

And that's why HCO staff are always burning out because they're so exposed to this, the crap that goes on. Y'know? And y'know, just to point out something about Scientology is that the trap of Scientology started from Keeping Scientology Working [KSW] Series 1.

When you go to university, and you're sitting there and the lecturer goes "right, we're gonna have a lecture, we're gonna discuss, we're going to discuss the technology." After he's discussed, there's a question and answer, there's a debate regarding this. There is a growth of it. Now, many Sea Org members, scientologists, and public can't understand why, in their minds - "but the student hat worked for me,” “the touch assist worked for me,” "the word clearing worked for me" - "so how can somebody tell me it's a bunch of bull?" Ok? There's two answers to that...

Firstly, Scientology is the only religion in the world that asks you to defend something you don't know. When you start Scientology you can't read the bible all at the start, you can only read a bit of it and then a little bit more and then a little bit more, so constantly Scientologists are defending something they just don't know. They don't know what OTIII is, they don't know what OTV, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, the Saint Hill Special Briefing course, they don't know it and yet they're defending it. And the reason why they're doing this is because in Keeping Scientology Working Series 1, which is purported to be the saviour of Scientology, when in actual fact this policy letter is its death. This policy letter says, from the word go, before you even know anything about scientology, if you question it, you're against us. If you discuss it, you're against us. So you can read a policy letter, but you're not permitted to discuss it with another human being 'cause it's called a 'verbal technology.'

And when L Ron Hubbard is lecturing, it's not like a university lecture, there is no Q&A. It's just "I'm telling you, I'm telling you" - and you go through hours of this - "I'm talking to you, I'm talking to you, I'm talk...don't answer, don't, don't think, don't ask me a question, I'm telling you, this is the way it is." And Keeping Scientology Working, right from the word go, first time he walks into Scientology, he's slowly getting indoctrinated. He reads this policy that says "don't think about it, no verbal discussions, if you experience past lives you can't talk about it." Well no wonder because it's all bullshit. No wonder you can't talk about it. If it really was past life, if it was really real then it would be just as real as something we're experiencing now so what would the difference be?

So the trap is right there in Keeping Scientology Working Series 1. From the word go you read it and it's the first thing you read in any course, in any training in Scientology and it keeps reinforcing to you "don't question what is written, do not discuss what is written, do not debate what is written" and eventually, after you do a couple of courses in Scientology, and even in the Sea Org, you can't talk about what you've just read. There is no questioning of it because you know, according to Keeping Scientology Working Series 1, that the moment you start to discuss it, it means that you do not 100% agree with it, unequivocally. And therefore, according to that very same policy letter, you must have misunderstandings about it. And if you have misunderstandings about it and you dare not clear those up, you're a suppressive person. But if there's something wrong with it and you talk about it, if there's actually something wrong with the technology, you're also a suppressive person.

There's only ever one answer, it's always right and that trap is what gets them going.

Here's reality, Scientology was born in '50's. It went and did some good things. And it did some bad things because misapplication of it is a shocking thing to do to another person. Ok? What happened is L Ron Hubbard got in trouble and he had to leave and he went on the boat in nineteen sixty, the mid-1960's he went on a boat and created this thing called the Sea Organisation and he lost the plot. This is where he came up with his OTIII story, which by the way, was a story written by Ron in 1953 (I think) called Revolt In The Stars which Hollywood refused to issue as a film. It was written before then. Y'know, there's even a, a video where L Ron Hubbard is talking about Xenu from the early 50's. And he supposedly found this in 1967. Anyways...

What I'm saying is that what really happened is that when he was on the boat he created an extremist organisation and when they landed back in America and took charge the world was told "the Sea Org is here to protect Scientology and they are in charge of it." And everybody believed them. This is the lie. The Sea Org, in actual fact, is got nothing to do with Scientology, has its own creeds, its own policies, and its own doctrines which they have nothing, they are not religious. And they hijacked Scientology and used Scientology as a method to accomplish their goals. So while you keep seeing people out there going "but the Sea Org is protecting Scientology" it's the other way around; Scientology is the vehicle for the Sea Org - not the Sea Org being the vehicle for Scientology. And they use all these activities like Applied Scholastics and Narconon - to the Sea Org it's just another activity that's implementing their ultimate goals.

Look, people want to believe that Scientology's all about money? I'm sorry to disappoint you, it's far worse than that.

It's not just about money, it's about control. Controlling your life, governments, and the way we live. And the Sea Org is just what they want in society on a small scale and it's expanding. And when people realise that it's wrong to call Scientology a cult - it's not a cult. A cult is, by definition; a religion, a belief system, a God-like thing, practices and beliefs that are considered unorthodox or extreme and often run or led by a charismatic leader. This is the definition of a cult.