Ivan Obolensky

[bts2free]

It has nothing to do with the SO or Scientology, it has to do with irrespnsible parenting.
Diana

Absolutely, incredibly irresponsible parenting.

The conditions that the PAC cadets were living in at that time were horribly frightening. Why did any of the SO parents even allow it? Are there any people on this message board who were parents then, and had children in the cadet org and knew about the living conditions for the kids?

If so, what was the reasoning behind allowing it? Was it because the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics was DUTY, which is "the highest motivation there is?" Was it because there was a "planet to Clear?" Was it because you could be assigned lower conditions for failure to report for duty to your post? Were you afraid of being assigned to the RPF for neglect of your post duties? Did you complain or fight back when family time was cancelled? Did you just assume that your kids were being well taken care of by SO nannies? Were you being told that you were out-ethics for being 2D oriented?

Or, were you all just the most irresponsible parents that ever were?

Yes, I agree that most of the shame in this lies in the fault of bad and irresponsible parenting. Parents should NEVER allow this kind of abuse to happen to their kids. But at the same time, for a group to allow this to happen to it's children, and the fact that Hubbard even thought of children as grown up thetans in tiny bodies, per those standards, those thetans were also responsible for the conditions they were in. Yes, the cadets as individuals and as an org were assigned lower conditions regularly, were assigned to heavy MEST work duties and were treated as if they were adults. Even the ones who were toddlers. Fucking sick. I blame a lot of that on Hubbard, the Sea Org and Scientology for even coming into existence. Had it not come along, those families would have grown up in a world without Hubbard, and might have raised their children without having been brainwashed into that frame of mind.

 

[Bea Kiddo]

Bad parenting? Sorry, but its deeper than that.

Having been dumped in the Sea Org at the age of 3, I can tell you that I hardly EVER saw my mom. She was constantly on post handling flaps. Or sent on missions out of state, even out of the country many times.

The most I ever saw my mother in the 32 years in the SO environment was the last 3 months I was in the SO: We were in the same org. So I got to eat with her every day and sometimes spend an hour a week on Sunday morning, as long as we got our rooms cleaned and passed quickly enough.

When I was young, there was "family time", which was one hour per day, from 5 to 6 pm. My mom hardly ever showed up. When she did, she would mostly nap and barely spent time with us at all. She was so tired all the time. There was family day for a few years (which was one full day with your parents, once a year), and we did get to spend time then, until it was cancelled. Family time was cancelled too, and I never saw her.

When she got off post, it was so late at night that I would be asleep. Then in the morning we had to rush to get dressed and get on the bus to go back to daycare (bus was without parents, kids only) for the whole day.

What parenting?

 

[OliviaZero]

Yes, I agree that most of the shame in this lies in the fault of bad and irresponsible parenting. Parents should NEVER allow this kind of abuse to happen to their kids. But at the same time, for a group to allow this to happen to it's children, and the fact that Hubbard even thought of children as grown up thetans in tiny bodies, per those standards, those thetans were also responsible for the conditions they were in. Yes, the cadets as individuals and as an org were assigned lower conditions regularly, were assigned to heavy MEST work duties and were treated as if they were adults. Even the ones who were toddlers. Fucking sick. I blame a lot of that on Hubbard, the Sea Org and Scientology for even coming into existence. Had it not come along, those families would have grown up in a world without Hubbard, and might have raised their children without having been brainwashed into that frame of mind.

^^^^^THIS THIS THIS


Bea Kiddo: I am *so* sorry. You deserved so much better than the hand you were dealt.

 

[dianaclass8]

Absolutely, incredibly irresponsible parenting.

The conditions that the PAC cadets were living in at that time were horribly frightening. Why did any of the SO parents even allow it? Are there any people on this message board who were parents then, and had children in the cadet org and knew about the living conditions for the kids?

If so, what was the reasoning behind allowing it? Was it because the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics was DUTY, which is "the highest motivation there is?" Was it because there was a "planet to Clear?" Was it because you could be assigned lower conditions for failure to report for duty to your post? Were you afraid of being assigned to the RPF for neglect of your post duties? Did you complain or fight back when family time was cancelled? Did you just assume that your kids were being well taken care of by SO nannies? Were you being told that you were out-ethics for being 2D oriented?

Or, were you all just the most irresponsible parents that ever were?

Yes, I agree that most of the shame in this lies in the fault of bad and irresponsible parenting. Parents should NEVER allow this kind of abuse to happen to their kids. But at the same time, for a group to allow this to happen to it's children, and the fact that Hubbard even thought of children as grown up thetans in tiny bodies, per those standards, those thetans were also responsible for the conditions they were in. Yes, the cadets as individuals and as an org were assigned lower conditions regularly, were assigned to heavy MEST work duties and were treated as if they were adults. Even the ones who were toddlers. Fucking sick. I blame a lot of that on Hubbard, the Sea Org and Scientology for even coming into existence. Had it not come along, those families would have grown up in a world without Hubbard, and might have raised their children without having been brainwashed into that frame of mind.

You can blame it all you want on Hubbard, but at the end of the day it was the stupidity and the irresponsibility of the lazy parents who did not want to confront raising their children and instead went on staff...I saw many people joining staff because their lives had no purpose and they thought it was just easier to join the SO as a solution...and now is Hubbard no?

Yeah right.

Diana

 

[dianaclass8]

I found an artists experience with Serge which is certainly a very, very sad story: I'm not going to copy and past it here - check half way down the page.

http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/yourgallery/artist_profile/Tracey+Keilly/30101.html

Yes, all of that is true...his mom was the OT2 supervisor at AOLA and I don't know how many times I told her about her children and she always said they were doing fine...she could not cope with being abandoned by Ivan and having to raise 3 children on her own and she just simply abandoned them too.

Diana

 

[dianaclass8]

Diana - I never met you when I was in but I am personal messaging with a person who recently started taking services from you, at least he is telling me that. I knew of your work from the videos you made about how C of S has been changing the original books by L Ron Hubbard to the alter-ised books taken from the works of L Ron Hubbard. Just think, your videos were done even before the Basics came out

When I watched you present the data about the altered books, I was impressed very much by how safe your space is and how honest and straightforward you communicate. This person whom I am PMing with invited me to an event at your house a couple of weeks ago and I was going to try and make it but did not do so. It is good to be able to communicate to you and thank you for all the fine work you are doing. If he invites me again to an event where you are at, I will come for sure next time. I am doing a lot of posting on ESMB but have a desire to take a more active part against C of S. Maybe, if I meet you, you could steer me in the right direction towards getting more active.

As to you comments about Ivan, I am sorry to hear you feel that way about him. He seemed like a nice young guy with executive ability when I first knew him but it sounds like he sold out his integrity to upper C of S management.
Lakey

Hi, thanks for the compliments...I am glad that you liked my videos, they have helped a lot of people to open their eyes and leave the church...

Next time we have a gathering at my house I will let you know. I would like to meet you in person too.

About Ivan, I don't know what got onto him to abandon his children like that...It was horrible for me to see them growing up alone with no love and with no direction and rejected by the SO...I invited Sasha as much as I could to spend the night at my house and he loved it. Last time I spoke with him was few days before he died. He was incoherent.

Ivan comitted a crime as a father, as far as I am concerned.

Diana

 

[dianaclass8]

Sasha was born with a blood disease. I don't know which kind, but he was ill most of his life. I am very sorry to hear he passed. He was there when Serge was building the bomb. He had built a few before that and placed them in newspaper stands in the LA area. Sasha was prosecuted for his involvement with Serge in the making of these bombs. Serge was let go, because the police believed that he had learned his lesson. He had lost both hands and I also think he also lost one eye.

There were a few marriages and divorces amongst several couples that confused me as to who the parents were of the kids. Who was the mother? I know Ivan was the father. I am pretty sure the mother was not Debbie. Was it Nancy (later Christodoulou)?

Yes, his mother was Nancy a mousy looking/behaving SO member at AOLA and his step dad was a cook at the restaurant in CC. Nancy did not care about her children. I told her many times she need to take a break from staff and take care of them but she would not hear of it. She seemed like a lazy person that was always dazed and confused.

Diana

 

[Bea Kiddo]

You can blame it all you want on Hubbard, but at the end of the day it was the stupidity and the irresponsibility of the lazy parents who did not want to confront raising their children and instead went on staff...I saw many people joining staff because their lives had no purpose and they thought it was just easier to join the SO as a solution...and now is Hubbard no?

Yeah right.

Diana

I can agree with this. I kind of felt this from my mom. I think in a way, the parents know what they are getting into and decide that it is the way they want to go. Its hard to comprehend how they can do that, but it really is the parents job.

Why don't they fight it or demand to see their children? why do they agree with it? Or let it go on without protest?

But its both: Parents and LRH.

 

[bts2free]

You can blame it all you want on Hubbard, but at the end of the day it was the stupidity and the irresponsibility of the lazy parents who did not want to confront raising their children and instead went on staff...I saw many people joining staff because their lives had no purpose and they thought it was just easier to join the SO as a solution...and now is Hubbard no?

Yeah right.

Diana

Not all on Hubbard. Yes bad parenting. And we are looking at varying points of view here as well. From the standpoint of a child, like myself and many others, who didn't have a choice in regards to getting involved in Scientology due to our parents, we look back and wish that our parents had made better decisions while raising us and getting us involved in a dangerous, mind control cult before we were old enough to even recognize what dangers may lie ahead, or what we were getting involved with.

I'm just saying, all I knew, or we as kids knew, was Scientology. And the older we got, due to the programming, a lot of us didn't even get to experience what a normal life would have been like had we lived in the real world. By the time I was 11 years old, all I wanted to do was join the Sea Org and do what Ron would do. I wanted to help mankind and Clear the planet. I finally joined the SO at 18 years old and spent over a decade on staff and in the SO. By the time I got out, I had never really progressed as an adult past 18. It was extremely hard for me to adjust to living in the real world as an adult. I had to get a real job without having had any prior work experience, education or degree. I had to figure out what to put on my resume without sounding like an idiot for job interviews. All my prior experience with work was in the SO as an administrator, an MAA and De-PTSer. Scientology was my world from the time I was 6 years old.

It has a LOT to do with Hubbard and Scientology, because it was the tools of the Dissem drill, Body Routing, TRs, and Hard Sell that hooked my family into it - with full intention and purpose to do so. The rest that followed went according to gameplan.

We, the ex-Scientology kids, are a different breed than those adults who got involved. You had a choice. We didn't.

You can call it bad parenting all you want, which it is, but you have to wonder how effective something must be to get parents to even behave this way.

We can't blame this on the "lazy" parents who joined the SO for lack of something better to do. Seriously? Someone who dedicates their life to a cause and signing a billion year contract, getting paid almost nothing to slave away the rest of their lives is FAR from lazy.

I can name a lot of people who joined the Sea Org, who were successful and had plenty of money before even joining who had children, and for some reason, became horrible parents to help "Clear the planet." Shit, I'll name one right now... Greg Hughes - became WDC Wise while his kids were stuck out at the Int Ranch with Jenna Miscavige and the rest. Read their stories.

My question now is, when will the parents wake up to the fraud and the fantasy? A lot of the kids had to wake up first and get the parents out. I still see some of these parents, and adults, from when I was a child playing this dreamland, Scientology biz even today.

If Hubbard were still alive, one question I'd like to ask him is how he felt about ordering that child into the chain locker, and where the parents were of the child messengers that were bathing him and lighting his Kools.

 

[dianaclass8]

I can agree with this. I kind of felt this from my mom. I think in a way, the parents know what they are getting into and decide that it is the way they want to go. Its hard to comprehend how they can do that, but it really is the parents job.

Why don't they fight it or demand to see their children? why do they agree with it? Or let it go on without protest?

But its both: Parents and LRH.

Hi Bea

I did not know about your story. I am sorry that this happened...you have no idea how much I hated that...I was never in the SO or on staff really for that very reason...I could not imagine myself neglecting my children.

And I did complaint A LOT to the staff members who did it...I did pointed out they were neglecting their kids..and they would not hear me.

But I must tell you that it not only happens in Scn or the SO...it happens out there a LOT...the americans sense of family is weird...their kids move out at 16 or 18...they cannot buy cigarrettes and buzz until 21 yet the girls can have abortions without telling their parents; and condoms are easily available...everybody...F^cks everybody...sorry...

I cannot blame it on the SO or Hubbard...

It is the american way...such it is...and I never liked it.

Diana

 

[dianaclass8]

Not all on Hubbard. Yes bad parenting. And we are looking at varying points of view here as well. From the standpoint of a child, like myself and many others, who didn't have a choice in regards to getting involved in Scientology due to our parents, we look back and wish that our parents had made better decisions while raising us and getting us involved in a dangerous, mind control cult before we were old enough to even recognize what dangers may lie ahead, or what we were getting involved with.

I'm just saying, all I knew, or we as kids knew, was Scientology. And the older we got, due to the programming, a lot of us didn't even get to experience what a normal life would have been like had we lived in the real world. By the time I was 11 years old, all I wanted to do was join the Sea Org and do what Ron would do. I wanted to help mankind and Clear the planet. I finally joined the SO at 18 years old and spent over a decade on staff and in the SO. By the time I got out, I had never really progressed as an adult past 18. It was extremely hard for me to adjust to living in the real world as an adult. I had to get a real job without having had any prior work experience, education or degree. I had to figure out what to put on my resume without sounding like an idiot for job interviews. All my prior experience with work was in the SO as an administrator, an MAA and De-PTSer. Scientology was my world from the time I was 6 years old.

It has a LOT to do with Hubbard and Scientology, because it was the tools of the Dissem drill, Body Routing, TRs, and Hard Sell that hooked my family into it - with full intention and purpose to do so. The rest that followed went according to gameplan.

We, the ex-Scientology kids, are a different breed than those adults who got involved. You had a choice. We didn't.

You can call it bad parenting all you want, which it is, but you have to wonder how effective something must be to get parents to even behave this way.

We can't blame this on the "lazy" parents who joined the SO for lack of something better to do. Seriously? Someone who dedicates their life to a cause and signing a billion year contract, getting paid almost nothing to slave away the rest of their lives is FAR from lazy.

I can name a lot of people who joined the Sea Org, who were successful and had plenty of money before even joining who had children, and for some reason, became horrible parents to help "Clear the planet." Shit, I'll name one right now... Greg Hughes - became WDC Wise while his kids were stuck out at the Int Ranch with Jenna Miscavige and the rest. Read their stories.

My question now is, when will the parents wake up to the fraud and the fantasy? A lot of the kids had to wake up first and get the parents out. I still see some of these parents, and adults, from when I was a child playing this dreamland, Scientology biz even today.

If Hubbard were still alive, one question I'd like to ask him is how he felt about ordering that child into the chain locker, and where the parents were of the child messengers that were bathing him and lighting his Kools.

BTs...

My heart goes out to you...most of what you say it is true unfortunately...

I feel for the ex scientology kids...they had no choice..true...

My daughter wanted to join the SO very much and I absolutely refused...they tried to threaten me with ethics and I told them all off so furiously that they left us alone. When we left the church, the whole family left together...

We can talk about this until the cows come home...in some aspects you are right...but I insist...at the end of the day your parents should have refused...I did...

With infinite ARC

Diana

 

[bts2free]

BTs...

My heart goes out to you...most of what you say it is true unfortunately...

I feel for the ex scientology kids...they had no choice..true...

My daughter wanted to join the SO very much and I absolutely refused...they tried to threaten me with ethics and I told them all off so furiously that they left us alone. When we left the church, the whole family left together...

We can talk about this until the cows come home...in some aspects you are right...but I insist...at the end of the day your parents should have refused...I did...

With infinite ARC



Diana

Thank you Diana for your ack on this. You are one of the few who refused.

But, did you ever wonder, how something that was supposed to be so good, could actually be so bad - especially for the children? Why should one even have to be a part of a "religion" that is so dagerous to the child and the family at its core?

Complaining to SO recruiters and to parents who are already IN the Sea Org will fall on deaf ears. Why? You will never know unless you were actually there in the trenches.

 

[dianaclass8]

Thank you Diana for your ack on this.

**You are welcome.

You are one of the few who refused.

BTs I refused a lot of things...I did Scn my way or no way...I made it to class 8 unscathed...except for what happened to others hurt me infinitely.

But, did you ever wonder, how something that was supposed to be so good, could actually be so bad - especially for the children? Why should one even have to be a part of a "religion" that is so dagerous to the child and the family at its core?

Anything that is improperly used can be so bad...just eat a lot of cake...and you'll get a tummy ache...when common sense is dropped...insanity ensues...

Complaining to SO recruiters and to parents who are already IN the Sea Org will fall on deaf ears. Why? You will never know unless you were actually there in the trenches.

***Well...one day 3 SO recruiters came to my house to try to recruit my nephew from Mexico...he was under my care and I put him on course at ASHO...and when they came to my house I said from the upper balcony: Get out of my property or I will shoot you...they left running scared, LOL!

To never come back and they did not write me up...LOL!
Or maybe they did, but I was never called to ethics for that...

I am like a mamma bear when I defend my children.

Diana

 

[thetanic]

***Well...one day 3 SO recruiters came to my house to try to recruit my nephew from Mexico...he was under my care and I put him on course at ASHO...and when they came to my house I said from the upper balcony: Get out of my property or I will shoot you...they left running scared, LOL!

You are so awesome for that kind of pushback.

 

[dianaclass8]

You are so awesome for that kind of pushback.

Really I wasn't because the poor recruiters were 3 kids no older than their 20's
and I scared the daylights out of them....

All I remember that one of them was a black girl...hahahaa

One day when she blows she might tell the story....

Diana

 

[skollie]

I agree. Serge's story is so horrific and the only explanation (for me), is that the parents were brain washed into believing it was the greatest good. The whole adult in a child's body was just a damn excuse for the abuse!

Yes, I agree that most of the shame in this lies in the fault of bad and irresponsible parenting. Parents should NEVER allow this kind of abuse to happen to their kids. But at the same time, for a group to allow this to happen to it's children, and the fact that Hubbard even thought of children as grown up thetans in tiny bodies, per those standards, those thetans were also responsible for the conditions they were in. Yes, the cadets as individuals and as an org were assigned lower conditions regularly, were assigned to heavy MEST work duties and were treated as if they were adults. Even the ones who were toddlers. Fucking sick. I blame a lot of that on Hubbard, the Sea Org and Scientology for even coming into existence. Had it not come along, those families would have grown up in a world without Hubbard, and might have raised their children without having been brainwashed into that frame of mind.

 

[AnonyMary]

Are you sure Sasha died? There is a Sasha Obolensky shown on Yurii’s Friends list - MySpace Friends - both of them list themselves as scientologists
http://friends.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewfriends&friendId=7974658&qFriends=S

This link might be working now but it was under routine maintenance when I tried it.
Sasha (Sasha Obolensky) | MySpace - myspace.com/obolinsky
MySpace profile for Sasha Obolensky. http://www.myspace.com/obolinsky

Here is Sasha's photo album. Is this the same Sasha?
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind....viewPicture&friendID=31319644&albumId=239110

I wish we knew what was up with Serge. I would like to help if possible.

~ Mary McConnell

Ivan blew the SO and abandoned his children at a young age, he totally disconnected from them knowing well how horrible the conditions were in the SO.

Serge, Yuri and Sasha. One blew both his hands off, the other is a normal guy and Sasha lost his mind from some illness or lack of nutrition, he used to live across the street from CCI and his stepfather used to bring him the leftovers from the restaurant where he was a chief.

They all grew up alone without a father and a mother; Sasha used to spend a lot of time in my house, I wanted to raise him along with my son but his mother did not let him...yet she did not take care of him.

Sadly he passed away at the age of 20 or something like that.

It has nothing to do with the SO or Scientology, it has to do with irrespnsible parenting.

Ivan came from a rich famliy in Russia, their story was in the cover of time magazone. I had no respect for Ivan or his ex-wife...

Diana

 

[Gottabrain]

Diana, I am sorry to hear all of that. I didn't know any of that because I was long gone before Ivan left or perhaps on the RPF getting ready to leave when Serge blew his hands off.

That's awful.

He did protect his staff from upper mgmt, however, and didn't believe in sending others to the RPF.

 

[Gottabrain]

It may be no consolation to anyone here, but Ivan allowed and helped AOLA pay for outside child care for the kids born around 1982, including mine. He also let several of us keep our infant children with us for quite a while on post (until about 9 months old) and use our study time to spend with our babies.

 

[bts2free]

People with children, or who plan to have kids, need to read this thread.

When it comes to Scientology, the Sea Org or LRH... Well you decide.

As much as I have tried to give Scientologists the benifit of the doubt on this particular issue, especially with those who have never been on staff or in the SO, I wonder what fucking planet these people live on. Sorry for being so harsh, but it's a harsh issue.

Scientology seriously needs a warning lable for ages 18 and above.