ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

cease and desist warning

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Nicole, Jan 11, 2015.

View Users: View Users
  1. Nicole

    Nicole Silver Meritorious Patron

    A few days before christmas I have gotten "a cease and desist warning" (Abmahnung mit der Bitte um Unterlassen), from a German lawyer who works often for the Cult and Scientologists. I should delete two Blog reports, where I have written about two Scientology frontgroups. Because the lawyer was thinking, that I "broke" the personal rights of the Scientologists that were the owner of this companies. Lots of pages full with Blablabla. I still believe that exists a "public interest" that allows me to publish this kind of information after German law, but a "law fight" costs time, money and nerves, so I deleted what they wish.

    I am feeling angry about it, because imo the public needs this kind of information and right now I am thinking about different ways to post this kind of information, without getting problems and I still have no very good idea.
  2. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    Merry Christmas from the COB. Fuck him.

    Not sure what the law is in Germany but in Aus, a cease and desist is just bullshit.

    Any German lawfags on here confirm that?

    If you get no answer, try WWP. Don't do anything (ie delete blogs) unless you are sure you need to.

    Good luck and nice job pissing them off. You are obviously doing something very right.
  3. TrevAnon

    TrevAnon Big List researcher


    IANAL. Find some friendly anon / COS critic somewhere (may be the other side of the world) to publish the info you posted yourself. Or course re-word it so no one will find out it was your info in the first place.

    I understand you had to do this. Not everyone has the money to finance a courtcase.

    Be careful and try and find legal advice. :yes:
  4. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'll web those pages for you on
    in fact I'll BUY them from you, for $1.00

    PM me for email address
  5. La La Lou Lou

    La La Lou Lou Crusader

    I understand that you have to pay for all legal advice there, is that right?

    Here you can go to a Citizen's Advice Bureau and get free advice from volunteers, it seems more difficult there but the Ministry of Justice can send you information in a booklet called ''Guter Rat ist nicht teuer'' which doesn't mean that a 'good rat isn't a toy'. I hope that can be of some help.
  6. TrevAnon

    TrevAnon Big List researcher

  7. prosecco

    prosecco Patron Meritorious

    Nicole, would be interested to know what specific legislation is being breached?
  8. TrevAnon

    TrevAnon Big List researcher

    It's been a while since MrNobody has been around here. He can't help? :unsure:

    I'd guess he knows more about German laws and legal possibilities than most of us non-Germans. Or are there any other German users here?
  9. uncover

    uncover Gold Meritorious Patron

    In very short:
    Fortunately there is a much better law in europe concerning privacy then in the US. Therefore - without knowing the details, Nicole didn´t post any - I assume the lawyer is basically right. In europe you can not name and shame somebody else how you want it - american providers dont care.

    In europe, you are not allowed to take a picture of somebody else, put it on your webpage and write: "look at this criminal asshole". Every court will rule that you have to remove it and pay for lawyer, court and damages.

    "Public interest" doesn´t apply to everybody, only to "public figures" (people of public life like politicians, pop stars or cult leaders). An owner of a company is not such a "public figure".

    Even public figures have a right for privacy. For example, if you go in your local disco and there is Leah Rimini kissing a man, you are not allowed to print a taken picture in the tabloid press (or put it on your website). Legally a blog is identical to a printed tabloid press like the "Sun" or the "Bild". The right for privacy of even public figures ("normal" people of course too) concerns the core of privacy like health, family, sex life.

    After a decision of the "Court of Justice of the European Union" even google had to remove some of their search results:
  10. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    Very noble Arnie.

    I hope you have some experience in dealing with scientology lawyers.

  11. Nicole

    Nicole Silver Meritorious Patron

    Sometimes I am calling MrN. The last time in December. He can't see very well right now, also writting is difficult for him. But if he feels better, he could write about it here. Don't want to tell too much about him.

    I don't want to be egoistic, he has other problems right now.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
  12. degraded being

    degraded being Sponsor

    I guess the lawyer costs time for every interaction on behalf of the cult of scientology.
    If you are feeling playful, why not submit information about the HBO doco and respectfully ask if putting this up will incur the wrath of the culties. Hopefully he will check it out with them, costing them money and making the lawyer and OSA look at thetan withering entheta.
    Then you could try the same on the topic of T Otega's upcoming book. Helpful links could be included. If you feel like it.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
  13. Nicole

    Nicole Silver Meritorious Patron

    I haven't shamed anybody... But you are right, naming a person could be a problem.

    This isn't 100% correct. If a public interest exists in a special topic (Scientology and the frontgroups are from public interest imo) Journalists eg could name persons. Eg. Person A has a "company" that is working for Scientology in the past this person has said in public that his company is working with Hubbards Tech and that they are searching "raw meat" and this person has talked with Scientologys spokemen to journalists about this topic and now this person has "forgotten", what the person said in the past about the company and Scientology, changed the own name and the name of the company.... But the problem will be, that it will end in front of the court to proof what is correct and the Cult has more time, people and money than myself.

    In the last year I have helped some people that had big problems with this Scientology frontgroup. Damn and now all my informations are gone. Nobody will know about the "Scientology connection" anymore.
  14. prosecco

    prosecco Patron Meritorious

    There is no 'European' law. Member states have different laws in regards to privacy, libel and slander, however in most EU countries, fair comment is usually a proper defence, which obviously needs to be proportionate.
  15. uncover

    uncover Gold Meritorious Patron

    "to name and shame somebody" means: "Jemanden an den Pranger stellen" (z.B. etwas zu behaupten, ohne es wirklich beweisen zu können). In lack of the details I can´t say more.

    Yes, but only the responsible leaders and the spokesman. Not who is a simple member, that is forbidden by the privacy law.

    As I already wrote, this was "in very short".

    Legally a blogger is the same as a big newspaper. So the existing law for newspapers applies to individual bloggers too. That means a blogger has the duty of care ("Sorgfaltspflicht") concerning what (s)he is writing. (S)he cannot spread unverified rumours or accuse somebody out of the blue sky of criminal or libelous acts on his/her blog. Everything what is written in a blog must be possible to be proven in court otherwise one is dancing on very thin ice. And matters of privacy are forbidden anyhow.
  16. TrevAnon

    TrevAnon Big List researcher

    Uhm, not quite. There is a European data protection directive which all the member states of the EU have implemented in their own laws.
  17. prosecco

    prosecco Patron Meritorious

    Um, at issue may or may not be data protection without seeing the letter, wouldn't you agree?
  18. Nicole

    Nicole Silver Meritorious Patron

    Ok. Sometimes I have translation problems. The problem is, that I can't give more informations and details in public, so the lack of the details will stay here.

    If a "simple member" recruits people with a frontgroup, it is a simple member? I mean this person is to find everywhere in the internet with this frontgroup, also on FB and during the courses this person recruits people for the Cult. You can link this person to Scientology, no problems and in the past this person was proud to be a Scientologist and advertised with the Learntech and together with the Cult for ABLE. This person is proud to be a Scientologist, this person does the same for the Cult, but this Person doesn't talk anymore about Scientology in the beginning of the contacts and in its advertising.

    I have spoken with people who has gone in this special trap.

    How should critics speak about frontgroups, if we can't tell what frontgroups are? This is BS. (Nothing against you, a regular rant.)

    As I wrote above, I don't write rumours. The main problem for the lawyers was, that on my Blog stood, that I "meanly write about crime against children in Scientology" (it's a topic on my Blog) and this the Scientologists never have done (what I don't know) and that I linked to "truth about Scientology", where their names appear and they never allowed the Cult to appear in their magazins (this isn't my problem) and so was the posting in "truth about Scientology" also wrong and I shouldn't link to it. The other things were nothing. In German said: "nichts mit Hand und Fuß".
  19. AnonyMary

    AnonyMary Formerly Fooled - Finally Free

    Nicole, write the attorney back, certified or whatever to make sure he gets it, and tell them that since he represents Scientology, he has no claim to demand you take down something about individuals he does not represent. Tell him that the scientologist owners would need to contact you personally or through their legal representative, requesting the blog pieces be taken down and why. That you have no authorization from the owners to discuss this with the church attorneys.
  20. TrevAnon

    TrevAnon Big List researcher

    This looks like good advice to me. It might also be a way of getting the pages on the net without the COS ever able to get them off again while keeping yourself out of trouble:
    - Get Arnie's mail by asking him using a PM as he offered above
    - Write the lawyer as stated above
    - Put the pages up again
    - Send Arnie the link and/or the pages themselves and somehow be sure he gets them
    - Wait for the new claim to put the pages down
    - Do so
    - Arnie publishes them on his own site
    - ?????
    - PROFIT!


    Again IANAL