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Comm Ev

Discussion in 'Staff "War Stories"' started by Bea Kiddo, Jan 14, 2007.

  1. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    I get that comm evs were almost always kangaroo courts. I've read you guys's posts, I've read Greg and Debra Barnes' story and many others. And I believe everything people've said on that.

    But...I did have one comm ev that I'd asked for- when I got expelled for leaving staff when they did not want me to...and I asked for and was given (along with John) a comm ev in Seattle. This may sound odd and I'm not making excuses for all the constant crap other people've experienced with Scn "justice", but the panel was fair minded and decent to me.

    I know this was a rare experience and is nowhere near the majority or what one can commonly expect and I'm not saying I like CofS' take on justice. (basically I think that their deal is that people are just cogs in a very big wheel and that they do not matter, only the organization matters). But has anyone else ever had a decent comm ev, besides the Wonder Husband and me?
  2. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I've had a fair Board of Review. A Comm Ev several months earlier had suspended all my tech certs after I had been found guilty of horrendous crimes like glancing up a girl's skirt in the courseroom. I wanted my certs back. The LRH Comm ITO agreed it was an injustice, and didn't have an answer after I told her that SHE had approved the issue taking my certs away. Anyway, the Board of Review did their thing, even accepting my suggestion to go and ask some students at random how good or bad my supervision was, and I ended up with the Comm Ev recs being cancelled.

    Note that this was a corrective action after an injustice, as was yours, Fluffy.

  3. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Does anyone know of a comm ev where someone was found innocent of all charges?
  4. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    I don't recall one off-hand, Alanzo, but I would not make the blanket statement that all comm evs are travesties of justice. Some of the ones I have been involved with seemed fair to me at the time, and maybe would even seem fair to me at present if I were reacquainted with the facts.

  5. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    In my experience most staff are sincere. And they do their best out of the best parts of themselves.

    However, the system itself is deeply flawed. If there is no such thing as civil rights, and no recognition of fundamental concepts such as conflict of interest, undue influence, innocent until proven guilty, etc., then there is nothing on which the justice system can rest to avoid producing travesties. That any comm ev ever produced a just result is a miracle, and a testament to the basic goodness of staff.

    But also, if there was never a comm ev that cleared a person of all charges, then that is QUITE an outpoint - if your ideal scene is to use the Scn justice system to produce justice.

    However, if your ideal scene is a justice system that intimidates a population and creates a juggernaut that smashes all opposition to your financial interests, then to have no one ever found innocent in a comm ev is not an outpoint at all.

    It is a pluspoint.
    Last edited: May 6, 2007
  6. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    De minimis non curat lex (the law does not concern itself with trifles) is a sensible legal principle.

    I saw very little evidence of that principle being generally understood by people involved in doing :shark: justice actions.

    (I just Googled >>Scientology offences and penalties<< to see what data I could find, and the third hit was a post I made to this board two days ago! Huh.)

    Let's look at some likely charges. The following are classified as crimes in Scientology: "Permitting a section, unit, department or zone or division to collapse; Placing Scientology or Scientologists at risk; Instigating a local power push against a senior; Spreading destructive rumors about senior Scientologists; Overworking an executive by ignoring one's duties".

    You might think it is pretty hard to place Scientology or Scientologists at risk, and so you plead not guilty to it. All you did was fail to get your stats up while holding three full-time posts and working 20 hours a day. But no, your Div Head got reamed a new one and placed in a lower condition because of your failure to get all those posts into chronic power, so you placed him at risk, so you get found guilty. See how it works?

    Similarly, since your area is not bursting with expansion, you are guilty of permitting it to collapse, even though the stats might not be significantly down. "Collapse" has an unwritten definition in CommEvLand of "non-expansion", and it is rare that its true meaning comes through.

    You are guilty of "Spreading destructive rumours about senior Scientologists" because you wrote a KR on the CO when he ripped off some public person in an illegal reg cycle.

    In such a climate, no-one could be found innocent of all such charges, even the Archangel Gabriel.

    The reverse does happen, though. Maybe someone is destined for an important post--say the previous incumbent just got toasted--but he has some incomplete Justice action. Maybe a Review Comm Ev gets done to clear him of the former charges, so he can "qualify" for the new post.

    I think the problem is just human beings being human beings and not saints, and the Scn justice system as written is sometimes a slight impediment to wreaking arbitrary injustice, so such people work "within the system" to wreak the arbitrary injustice anyway.

    It is almost impossible to make use of the only real recourse, outside authorities, if one wishes to stay in the :shark:'s good graces, which, unfortunately, most churchies wish to do.

  7. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Good points and posts,one and all.

    I do think much of the problem is misapplication of policy but I also firmly believe that the policy itself has flaws in it. I think and have thought for years that there was a postulate that CofS and Scn mattered more than the members and this is why this stuff happened and continues to happen.

    The inherently dishonest thing about this (in my opinion) is that when people join or are regged into joining, etc, they are told that it is, in fact, for them,CofS is there for them, Ron was/is here for them, the staff is here for them.

    Unfortunately, to a large degree, that just isn't so.
  8. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Again I say, well maybe not here, that " First Policy" applies and is in fact
    powerfull truth.

    "Maintain friendly relationships with the environment and your public. "

    Miscavidge has reversed that.

    Those complicent in not using this policy are PTS IMO.

    Note that it is very powerful just as a tool on the first dynamic. ( for one self)

    Think on that!

    This policy rigorously applied would negate fair game, disconnection et al.

    Their is a heirachy of policy. It has not been spelled out terribly well.

    There is also senior policy " Deliver what you promise."

    Then "Service PL" Break all rules to make the customer right and
    give him service. ( my squirrel interpretation) :)

    These policies broadly say " The customer is right" .

    One gives service.

    From a business point of view this is obvious and a simplicity.

    The Freezone mostly gives people what they want.
  9. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    "PR is overt, Intelligence is covert."

    There is a hierarchy of policy. And you, for some reason, think (or at least say that you think) that PR level "Policy" (the lowest) is the highest.

    From lowest to highest: Broad Public Issue, Publicized Remimeo, members only Remimeo, general non-Remimeo, selective depts. nonremimeo, Confidential, Highly Confidential.

    "Maintain friendly relationships with your environment" is PR level. *It's PR.*

    There is PR, then there is business, then there is Intelligence, including Fair Game, then there is "Command Intention" which has to do with POWER, money, collecting blackmail and influence, and with "Commodore Hubbard's" drive for "immortality" for his ego.

    Miscavige is only doing what "Commodore" Hubbard did.

    By all means reform Scientology, but post-reform, it NOT Scientology, as intended by "Commodore Hubbard," anymore.

    But, if one looks at Scientology PR people, they mostly say the same things you've just said. And they do that because it's PR.
  10. Lulu Belle

    Lulu Belle Moonbat

    I was thinking about the question of "did you ever know a fair comm ev". My answer is similar to what Paul talks about here.

    But, even then, these cycles often are "political" in nature.

    They often go something like this:

    A mission comes into an org and RPFs Joe on trumped up charges. (A CMO mission can come in and put anyone on the RPF without a comm ev.)

    Joe, on the RPF, asks for a comm ev.

    A "kagaroo court" comm ev gets done and the RPF assignment is upheld.

    Five months go by. The org gets another mission. This mission needs to put someone on a post as part of their MOs. They don't have anyone in the org that can be spared.

    So, the mission orders a BOR ("Board of Review") on Joe's RPF assignment.

    The BOR cancels Joe's comm ev and springs him from the RPF. Joe gets posted by the new mission.

    The BOR may have been "just" and "correct".

    But it was as "politically motivated" as the "justice" cycle before it.

    The difference was that the politicians wanted something else out of it the second time around.
  11. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    "...and your public" to put in the full policy.

    Below a something TI quoted on another thread:-

    "A few notes from Ed Steele:

    9. Do the right thing; not the smart thing. Good deeds pay back better. If you don't see that, then you haven't looked far enough downstream. This encapsulates the whole concept of karma. The ultimate conclusion comes in realizing that giving and being in service to others, by themselves, provide the satisfaction that the acquisition of power, money and things fail to yield.
    We're all in this together and doing unto others quite literally is the same as doing unto yourself, the touchstone of guilt. Read Dostoevsky's "Crime and Punishment" for more about the consequences of guilt than you every possibly thought you wanted to know.

    10. If you want to be loved more, be more lovable. Be accountable. This single Law, if followed, would have kept America out of the Middle East and still number one on the world's Hit Parade, rather than the epitome of evil incarnate to nearly 6 billion human beings. Listen up, all you victims out there: Nobody owes you a single thing except to be left alone."

    America does not maintain friendly relations with the environment. America
    is hated and despised, and as a result has to put strict monitoring on all who visit her shores, adding to even friendly peoples annoyance. Iraq looks like
    becoming another lost war. America's dollar is going down. Looks like failure to keep in this policy will reap more troubles for America.

    I consider you have things upside down and back to front. This policy is not "PR", its an essential tool for survival, on a personal and a third dynamic level.
    Go anywhere on the net where scientology is discussed and people who know little of the subject other than what they learned from Tom Cruise rail against the COS and scientology. Probably they all know someone, or has a friend who knows someone whose suffered from fair game or disconnection. Per
    Larry," SME", 35,000 people have been declared under Miscavidge's watch. These policies are in violation of this fundamental, and first policy written by the man.

    In terms of Motor cars, British Leyland is no more. It violated this policy in that it let the public be its qual function, violating senior policy and to that extent first policy. Skoda, formerly the butt of almost all jokes about car manufacturers now have the top or second highest customer satisfaction in the world compared to all other brands. They did it by applying these two policies and "service" PL

    The media have had many attacks from the COS. The COS is now reaping
    the fruits of that. Looks like the icing on the cake will be the Panorama
    program on scientology.

    It seems like more government attacks will come in America, as they are now in Europe.

    " Attacks from monopolies or governments occur only where there are " no results" or " Bad results."

    If these three policies are kept in there would be no bad results. Skoda kept in the 10 points of KSW, and one might consider these as an extension of these three important policies. Strange how OTEATE used Yugo moters as his example. :)

    Again you have it upside down and back to front.

    " Those who attack scientology have crimes." THAT is PR. The man
    probably didn't believe it when he wrote it.

    Scientology PR personnel are probably so PTS that they actually think that
    they are maintaining friendly relations with the environment. Not stopping to realise that even potentially good projects like Narconon are finding it difficult to establish centres because the COS as a whole has antagonised almost the entirety of the citizenry.

    Scientology PR people do not say what I've said. They put up sites like religiousfreedomwatch, and freezonesurvivors. The exact reverse of Maintain friendly relationships...

    Had they kept in "maintain friendly relationships" they wouldn't be attacked.
  12. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    The date on the so called "First Policy" (a general circulation HCOPL) is September 1970. For those interested, suggest examining the other "remimeo": (general circulation), nonremimeo (selected persons, but not confidential), and "Confidential" HCOPL (Hubbard Communications Office Policy letter) issues, and also "Highly Confidential" issues around that same time.

    It should be noted that Confidential HCOPLs are not in the Green Volumes. Nor are Highly Confidential issues. Sometimes, general issue Policy "aligns" with senior (mostly confidential) Policy; however, when it does not, the non-public, or Confidential, trumps the "public."

    Scientology was built, by Hubbard, on the pattern of a "covert operation," or, one might say, on the pattern of a criminal operation. Remarkably, this is described in the last few pages of the non-confidential (but not publicized) issue, best known as the 'Bolivar Policy letter'.

    One can find Public Issue "Policy" of one date, and then another (seemingly contradictory) non-public or Confidential Policy of the same date. Public issue is mainily for display, and also for use by low level personnel, who are bound by the senior (non public) policies; policies, of which they are often not aware, but policies which, nonetheless, ultimately, influence and control their thoughts and actions.

    And it is a bit more complicated than that, since "public policy" will sometimes have a double meaning. For example, "Create a safe environment," turns out to mean, "Create a safe environment in which Scientology can expand," and that means eliminating opposition. How? Through the use of Front Groups, through "Public Relations" (being "friendly"), through "Finance," through the "legal dept.," through covert Intelligence data collection and "support" (attack) activities - all working separately, but (privately) together also.

    It's quite a system.

    And, what exactly does (the 1970 Policy) "maintain good relations with the environment," etc., mean? In 1970, Hubbard was directing his Guardians office's extensive covert data gathering and covert attack activities. Through the 1970s, Hubbard, for example, was directing, through telexes, the covert "attack" operation on author Paulette Cooper.

    In 1975, with the Sea Org landing in Florida, Hubbard used Front groups, such as "United Churches," he used "Public Relations tech" to "make friends," he used the "Legal dept." (lawyers), he used covert Finance, he used Sea Org near-slave labor, and he used Scientology Intelligence tech (both covert data collection and covert attack).

    By using all of the above, Hubbard planned to "Maintain good relations with the environment," etc., by deceiving people, by manipulating people, by bribery if needed, by blackmail, by "framing" innocent people, etc., etc., etc.

    So, it's not so simple.

    Again, to begin to "get a handle" on how Hubbard built Scientology, and by what patterns he maintained it, examine a seemingly benign Public Policy, then examine the other (mostly) non-public Policies of the same time period.

    "PR is overt; Intelligence is covert."

    Hubbard wrote the Broad Public Issue 'What is Greatness" (advocating "love") on the day that he began his (mostly confidential) Guardians Office. He issued the Public Policy 'Advocate Total Freedom', (which states that "advocating total freedom" is the only effective response to attacks), on the same day (and week) that he issued other seemingly contradictory issues instructing "attack."

    Contradictory? No. Not if one understands L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology.
  13. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Yes this is true. And the end result is COS is about the most despised organisation one could find. The Orgs are empty specially compared to the
    times when the Missions flourished.

    First Policy is in green vol 0 under the section on promotion and public relations. This is a valid subject, and the policy is an excellent one.
    However you describe here what I say, when I say that COS, Hubbard if you will, reversed this policy. Had that policy been fully and properly applied
    the currant situation regarding the COS and the tech would be far better.
    The missions would still be here and people would go to their local mission or org just for fun and to hang out.
  14. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    The different layers of Scientology policy are referenced at the end of another thread on this board. At Veda's suggestion, I read Brian Ambry's "Brainwashing Manual Parallels" piece (97 pages .pdf file online). It's probably the best analysis of the long-term operations of LRH and the :shark: that I've seen.

    I consider it essential reading for anyone trying to understand the seeming contradictions in Hubbard's policy. I don't see how anyone could grasp what is going on without being exposed to Ambry's points. After 35 years in Scn, 23 of them in the SO, and thousands of hours reading about Scn on the Net I still found the piece eye-opening, and significantly viewpoint-changing.

    Maybe there are shorter pieces of Ambry's that get across the same ideas well that someone could reference. Not everyone wants to :morecoffee: a 100-page work. Veda's summary here is pretty accurate, although a brief summary of an outstanding work is never a good substitute for the original.

  15. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Here's a bunch of links: