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COS or Scientology?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by radar, Dec 3, 2007.

  1. radar

    radar Patron

    Hello everyone
    I’m a new poster and I have a question.
    I’ve been reading through some discussions here on this forum and noticed that many of you make a distinction between scientology and the COS. And many obviously put great value on the practice of scientology itself.
    Here is a paradox I see. While distancing yourselves from the COS and believing you are no longer under its mind control, you at the same time acknowledge the benefits the church brought you.
    In other words, if it were not for the church organisation with its rigorous publicity campaigns, with books, videos, seminars etc and encouraging new converts into the organisation, then none of you would be here talking about scientology because you would have never come into contact with it.
    The church it seems to me, to be the vehicle for spreading the science around the globe.
    I’m not here to defend the church because I know how it operates and I once belonged to such an organisation with its destructive policies. But if you still recognise and keep scientology as part of your life and thinking process, then are you not indebted to the church that you reject?
  2. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    Imagine a former Roman Catholic who now rejects Church dogma and the miracle of transubstantiation, but likes the taste of the wafers, so he still calls himself a Roman Catholic.

  3. Tanstaafl

    Tanstaafl Crusader

    A senior part of Scn is the importance of the individual's considerations and their ability to change them.

    I choose to consider I am not indebted. :)
    Besides most of us have put in a lot more than we took out. :melodramatic:
  4. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    This is true, and some of them no longer consider themselves
    scientologists. By and large scientologists are good people and they
    did great efforts in promoting and building up the subject.

    IMO the COS has become destructive and actually hinders the
    subject of scientology.
  5. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    Knowledge is free. Knowledge is not owned by the Church.

    Church was a purveyor of knowledge... a service provider. As long as one puts in proper exchange no indebtedness should accrue.

  6. Little Bear Victor

    Little Bear Victor Silver Meritorious Patron

    Or you could think of it this way:

    If you believed there was a God and that Bible was the actual word of God, and then found out that the Church that claimed it was doing what it was doing based on the word of the Bible turned out not to be doing so, but that it was in the business of controlling people and collecting tithes instead, you might get to the point of separating the word of God from the Church. Yes, you might have heard about the word of God because of the Church, but upon finding out that they had different reasons behind getting you involved than they publicly presented, you would disagree.

    So you take your Bible and walk out of the Church. You still have your belief in God, you still have your holy book. All that you have lost is the control by the Church and having to pay tithes.

    How's that for an explanation?
  7. Leon

    Leon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I'm indebted to the Church of Scientology - the Org I was at in the 1970's and all. I'm very grateful for what I received and was able to achieve through them and, given the same circumstances, would gladly do my time over again.

    It is in the nature of groups - examples from history are all over the place - that it can become self-serving. The purpose of management then becomes to protect itself and the original purpose of the organisation becomes subverted to that.

    Example: The British Army of the late 1800s was more intent of strutting abotu insmart uniforms and having good cocktail party manners and arse-creeping with the colonel. Winning battles was relegated to relative unimportance and they paid the price for it when war came.

    Politicians do the same. The look to the next election and not to the country's best interests.

    The same phenomenon happened to the CofS.
  8. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Actually neither CofS nor Scientology (nor Hubbard) ever did anything for anybody.

    The person receiving the auditing, the person studying the concepts, the person taking the courses- that's who creates the benefits.

    Scn concepts and methods are a set of tools one can use. In the end, only one person has created or caused anything and that is the student or "pc" him or herself.

    Actually, I know a number of Freezone Scientologists who NEVER had been in CofS.

    So, no, I don't agree.

    But be that as it may, however one came to the subject, in the end- it is just that. A subject. A subject one can study or not study. In or out of CofS.

    I know people who study Scn outside CofS who do give props to CofS. My husband's one.

    But he'll tell you that his relationship and good will toward CofS are in the past.

    We move on.


    If I am, then they've gotten their money's worth from the huge fees I paid and the slave labor I endured as a staff member.

    Unless you were to suggest that I somehow am indebted for all eternity? :ohmy: :omg:
  9. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    An historical precedent is the Protestant Reformation. They definitely owe something to their former parent church- the Catholic Church. Which, in turn, owes something to the old BCE (Before common era) Jewish Religion and its organizational structure.

    But...we move on.
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Silver Meritorious Patron

    The "Church" is not a living thing. To be mad with it hence would be nonsense. To a greater degree we here are upset with church management, ie; David Miscavige and the degraded culture and SP interpretations of LRH tech he has created or let happen within the COS.
  11. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Well, not exactly. Some of us don't feel that way.

    I think a lot of the stupid stuff that happens in CofS now was set up by LRH. RPF was around a long long time before he died and he knew all about it. Same with disconnection and freeloader debts.
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Silver Meritorious Patron

    These measures exist in most hardcore groups ie, the military, religions, sport teams, fraternities. The abusive use of these is famous in the COS. I would say the main issue is recruiting people not ready for the SO or lying to them about how it really is. It all boils down to inept leadership which DM has not been able to improve even with all of LRH's research at his fingertips. Pathetic.
  13. radar

    radar Patron

    It's very interesting hearing your comments. The JWs organisation also changed with succesive presidents. The charector of the organisation often changed with the personality of those that ruled it.In the early 1980s stricter controls came into effect and so on. Its an older organisation than COS, the things taught by the first president..Charles Taze Russel in the early 1900s are quite different to the things taught today, these changes are said to be "new light" from god.
    In fact if the first president were alive today and held onto his beliefs no doubt he would be excommunicated from the present org. there are some older JWs who have left the org who respected the founding father..charles Russell works and started up their own church.
    Thank you very much for your comments and illustrations.
    These questions I ask are what overseers in the congregation of JWs would say to somone who was perceived as (falling away) begining to move away from the org or as ex JWs would say: escaping the THE BORG (who are part of the collective)
    I think all of us who have once been in a cult and survived to tell the tale share something very special. Our experiences make us who we are today. Its been about 7 yrs now since I left but if I'm honest, I guess I will never really get over it, these things have a way of haunting you sometimes don't they?
    all the best
  14. Whitedove

    Whitedove Patron Meritorious

    Very good comparaison LBV :coolwink:
  15. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Hi, PMD,

    I think the RPF is inherently abusive. And I don't really much care if the military had something like that.

    I'm a former military wife and I know a fair amount about that...

    It also used to be legal for the navy to shanghai people and to beat them bloody-doesn't make it right, yet it was totally and fully legal for a very long time.

    After the RPF was created, Hubbard overheard some staff members speaking with pleasure about being on it, change of scene, more sleep, not sure of all details. Anyway, he was angered by this because it's supposed to be a punishment.

    So he had the RPF's RPF created.

    Hubbard is also the same guy who ranted about the international banker's conspiracy, the Interpol conspiracy, and who used the copout line that when staff suffer injustices it's because they don't know their own rights...which is a complete evasion of responsibility. He said he didn't want to pay them a decent wage- that's right in policy.

    He tended to treat staff and anyone perceived as an enemy quite badly.

    And some policies reflect that.

    I know we all have our own take on things, but there's no way after what I've seen in both lifetimes, after the policies I've read and after reading first hand accounts by people whom I believe- people like Alan Walter- that I will ever ever take the position that everything LRH did was fine, it's just the current mgmt that's wrong and they're all twisting policies.

    Yes, they twist policies but there are some policies that never needed to be twisted after the fact- they already were twisted.
  16. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Yes, it is and that's how the Protestant Reformation was born.

    And, again, even if someone owes thanks or credit to the original organization, surely we get to move on sometime...

    been there...done that...
  17. nw2394

    nw2394 Silver Meritorious Patron

    That may well be true for those Scns who are ex-CoS.

    However, there are a good number of freezoners who would call themselves Scientologists who have never been a member of the CoS.

  18. barky

    barky Patron with Honors

    For me, I distinguish "tech" and "admin". I don't have many beefs with the tech side of things based on my own direct knowledge. Sure, some parts of it simply don't work, but overall, I don't have a problem with tech. Note I never made it to the OT levels, so I can't speak for those.

    However, on the admin side of things, there is a LOT wrong with Scn. It's quite abhorrent, in fact. They abuse their staffs, their public, their "most devoted" (i.e. Sea Org). They lie and cheat and do whatever it takes to make money, make more money, and make the orgs make more money. They are also heavy-handed in punishment and knowingly & willingly tear families apart and cause people chronic PTPs (present-time problems). In this aspect, Scn ("CoS") has no integrity or real ethics whatsoever, and that really disgusts me.

    Stated another way, it's not up to me to villify another's belief system. It is my responsibily, in fact it's all our responsibility, to condemn unethical or criminal actions.
  19. Pascal

    Pascal Silver Meritorious Patron

    I have no qualms about the RPF in it's proper context. You are in the SO, you are not a body, etc... If you stray from the Scientology context sure it looks abusive. LRH was no prophet and it's a miracle he gave us the tech. He sure wasn't the ideal person for something like that and I understand this very well. Things must have been tough and he had to make tough decisions. He was alone remember? Not a lot of guys like him around anyways.

    As for RPF being punishment that goes against all Scientological principles and ignore why the letter R is there. It's to rehab someone. And if you don't want to do it you leave and if you don't have the guts to leave, well, you should not have gotten in the SO to begin with!

    Like I said, the wrong people are in the SO and the wrong person is leading it. But this is Teegeak so... What can you expect?
  20. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    Hi again!
    Yes, our experiences make us who we are today.
    As I said before, I have no interest in the tech. However I was raised with the Scientology principles from teenagehood and they influenced my life greatly, and therefore those of my children too. So it is those influences and unconscious thought patterns that I am working on becoming more aware of - in order to change. It's not the same for everyone. :)