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Debbie Cook is back on the internet.

Discussion in 'Debbie Cook' started by Knows, Jun 25, 2014.

  1. Anonycat

    Anonycat Crusader

    I really enjoyed your post, thanks!

    As I was reading it, I thought about how hard it is to express non-forgiveness and forgiveness while looking at the cult situation.

    I understand that on some levels it feels wrong to forgive. Abusers want to be forgiven and then allowed to continue abuse. So letting them be okay, means doing that one thing we learn not to do, be an enabler or supporter of an abuser.

    I want to set-up my ramble by saying: the grip is hard. Also, scientologists came into it originally for very diverse reasons and through any number of decisions, but the end game is to have a correctly processed person. That ends the diversity problem that any cult must overcome.

    I do not agree with one poster who compared it to forgiving mass murderers.

    The cult of scientology has a complex and rigid method for processing people. It can even exploit the worst a person is capable of becoming. To the un-processed mind, or the recovered one, the actions of some in the cult are clearly seen, and it's shocking. Murder, abortions, extreme-duress regging -- on and on. It's horrible, evil stuff. THIS is the unique legacy of scientology -- to make individuals who will carry out the deeds required of the cult. For those like you who never saw themselves becoming a nasty Sea Org person … well, there's a place on staff for the ones that cannot be made vicious.

    The cult of scientology is in the business of doing business. And in the retention-of-client business. And they have to fill every position they have. This is the basic mission of scientology.

    Those few who achieve the most evil levels, are no longer themselves. They were processed over a long period of time, and did become the bad person that they did not make. Yes … that they did not make. They were mentally manipulated and became the result.

    So, they didn't exactly sign up for Hitler Youth, but could I forgive Debbie if she'd fleeced me in the cult? I don't know. Could I forgive myself for giving my credit card to Debbie? I'd have to do that to get peace.

    I guess I'll stop there. After all, it is a ramble.
     
  2. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    Roger, what's wrong with how people feel and think about the cult and in particular the Debbie Cooks, Mike Rinders, Marty's and the draconian behavior outlined in the op on the Valetine's Day Massacre thread for example? ESMB isn't a culty tone 40 club where how a person feels/thinks is a mandatory straight jacket "theta" fest.

    It's healthy to work through one's emotions, experiences, views and express them. That's called cult recovery and being self honest, it's not always candy canes and rainbows.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  3. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    Rog, I'm sure you know many of us look back at some of the shit we did & cringe...................now.
     
  4. Auditor's Toad

    Auditor's Toad Clear as Mud

    Oh so reminds me of once walking around with that clipboard getting signatures, The one I felt I needed most - but didn't have to have - refused to sign. Would have been no problem to get enough siggys without that one, but, I asked that person what it requires to get their signature. They told me. I tore up my needing one more signature sheet & went and started all over - ended up with the signature I thought I should have - and PISSED AWAY ANOTHER WEEK OF MY LIFE DOING THAT.

    There was a time - like then - I'd have had serious objections to some one calling me stupid. Not anymore. I was STUPID... and still can be - LOL !
     
  5. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    I never have anything to say about Debbie Cook, who I never met.

    I have very much mixed feelings.

    Anyway, I found much misdom and truth in each of your posts and view.

    Peope are trying to stand on a fine line between justice, forgiveness, mooving on, exposing, and their own suffering about the abuses of this cult made of good people turned into enforcers.

    Not easy to figure out the right middle view and right emotion.
     
  6. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I never met her either, but I knew who she was. And when I got her New Years message, that was exactly what I needed to confirm that the COS was wacko with the constant donations and something was really wrong, and she having the status of Captain of FSO gave me confirmation that I was not alone in my thinking, in fact, I felt like a million bucks upon receipt. So I am grateful for what she did with her message. I didn't even know she had left the SO.

    I only wish her message would have gotten thru to some still-in's I know. They got the message alright, but it didn't crack the bubble. I know for a fact Debbie created a lot of damage in terms of membership but she was DA'd by the COS. The DA pack disclosed all her bad deeds and crimes while she was in the Sea Org, perfect ad hom, attack the person instead of the message. So these people still-in that I know bought into the ad hom:

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
     
  7. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Leaving the cult is something
    but getting the cult out of someone is something else :wink2:
    :biggrin:
     
  8. CommunicatorIC

    CommunicatorIC @IndieScieNews on Twitter

    Thank you for the kind words. Believe it or not, I actually share your concerns -- though I probably exercised better self-restraint a couple of years ago.

    As I've said before, I don't think I've personally attacked anyone for what they did in while in the COS.

    However, I think it is one thing to say one should, for tactical, strategic and reasons of kindness (e.g., it might difficult to convince people to leave the COS if they believe they will be savaged by wolves), consider voluntarily refraining from criticizing an Ex-Scientologist for what they did while they were in the COS.

    I think it is quite another thing to say that anyone who wasn't in the COS doesn't have the RIGHT to judge someone who was. We don't apply that standard to members of any other group, and civil society can't function that way. ("You were never a member of the Crips, you don't know the pressure I was under, so you can't judge me for putting a cap in that Blood's ass.")

    I have no problem with people leaving Debbie Cook alone online, and think it is better that they do so if only to encourage others to leave. I just had a real problem with the assertion that someone who was never in the COS had no right to be "judgmental."
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
  9. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation


    My main issue was the "feeling" that perhaps some people (not you) were wanting her to "come clean" before they would or could "forgive her" and that just makes me spit feathers. It's none of our business how someone handles themselves ... that kind of thinking is cultic in the extreme (that doesn't mean it wouldn't work but we have no right to demand it) ... and can take people who have also done things that were not "nice" back down the highway to hell, due to the tek being interlocked and ever expanding. It could confuse someone who is working to rid themselves of accumulated cult tat here.

    My point seems to have been that ESMB isn't a cult and we're individuals now.

    People who were never in have always been very important to me here because they often see things that I've missed and they have every right to be as "judgmental" as the rest of us (lol) ... that's often how we sort things out and they are appreciated.




    :)
     
  10. PTS

    PTS Elliott

    There has been a lot of very good stuff said here. I particularly appreciate Cat's Squirrel who said that given a choice we would place our sympathies for those who were kicked around by the cult. That was profound for me.

    I realized that in my plea for people not to go so hard on Debbie Cook that I have nonetheless fearlessly and viciously advocated drawing and quartering Mike and Marty at every available opportunity. So my bad for type three hypocrisy. For whatever reason, I see Debbie as a survivor and Mike and Marty as something else. Maybe it's just sexism, I really do not know.

    At any rate I have learned a lot from this topic and been somewhat humbled too. That's really the best EP isn't it?
     
  11. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    Nicely done, PTS . . .

    This you wrote is why Emma set up ESMB, it was set up for folks to have honest, decent dialogue such that they could come to higher, new levels of understanding on this thing and to heal.

    Your post above exemplifies this.

    Nice!

    Rog
     
  12. This is NOT OK !!!!

    This is NOT OK !!!! Gold Meritorious Patron

    http://www.linkedin.com/pub/debbie-baumgarten/95/167/472?_mSplash=1

    Someone who knows her should contact her and suggest she clean up her Linked-in profile:

    Here's her education bio:

    :omg:

    I can't put in words how lame that reads.

    Despite everything she's been through, some of those onion layers are hanging on tight!
     
  13. RogerB

    RogerB Crusader

    And after all she's been through with that "equivalent of a master's degree" . . . doe she actually feel that's a workable tech?!?! :ohmy:

    JEZZUZZ, one would have thought the disaster of her experience based on "standard tech" would have convinced her how bloody fatal it is to try to put it into practice! :duh:

    R
     
  14. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I know a scientologist that puts on his credentials and/or resume

    that they "graduated from the Hubbard College of Administration" :yes:

    because they was on staff and completed the staff status's, the Data Series Evaluator course, and some others.

    me :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

    This person is cut from the same tree as Hubbard, that is being able to tell tall stories from nothing really, and really punch up the stories and accomplishments like it's a new found discovery. :laugh:
     
  15. Boomima

    Boomima Patron with Honors

    I don't think there is anything special about someone who did not join Scientology. If they had approached you on a different day, at a different time, you might have said no. Didn't John Duignan talk about being approached after he broke up with a woman? Sometimes even bad things can fill our immediate emotional or spiritual needs. I also don't think that there is anything shameful about having joined or believed.

    If they had approached me when I was not on my way to lunch, maybe I would have stopped. (four times... lunch over stress test!)
     
  16. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    Nobody approached me.

    I read Dianetics and I approached them. I wanted to go clear.

    25 years later somebody slapped me silly. LOL
     
  17. BunnySkull

    BunnySkull Silver Meritorious Patron

    I think you may have been conned by the Spandau Diaries and Speer in general. Those diaries are a case study in giving the public what they wanted - the ashamed and apologetic Nazi. A profile of a "good man" swept away by the forces and ideologies of his time, ignorant of the true evil. Sadly, very little of it is true when it comes to the accounting of his past and even some of the present (his snow job about his daughter's stay with an American Jewish family is a study in the art of emotional manipulation, and there was very little truth behind the tale he told about the visit, if it happened at all.)

    In college I took a very specific interest in the mechanics of the Nazi bureaucracy & and of the leadership circle Speer was particularly fascinating to me. I've probably read every book by and about Speer.

    Spandau Diaries are interesting reading, but were more of a PR job than any accurate history or insight into Speer. In fact his best friend who helped him smuggle out notes and his writings during his prison stay turned his back on him and refused to ever speak to him again he was so disgusted by some of the dishonesty and manipulation by Speer in the book and media dealings.

    Spandau Diaries was a big best seller and ensured a good income for Speer and sales of his subsequent books. It's a fact that he has lied about what he knew about the operations of the regime and their abuses. He was a supervising architect that oversaw throwing Jews out of their apartments, and off to camps, so they could be requisitioned for nazis officers and to clear city space for Hitlers grand plans. It would have been even worse had his full scale plans of the remaking of Berlin come to fruition.

    It's a fact he was in attendance during a speech where Himmler, in very stark terms, outlined the final solution and described how the nazis had to do the dirty work of genocide, but that it was necessary work they would be seen as the unsung heroes for doing in 100 years. As armaments minister he personally saw the conditions in the work camps, particularly at Peenemunde where the V rockets were produced and so many died due the inhuman conditions. Speer knew about the ongoing genocide, though he spent the rest of his life trying to convince the public he was ignorant. (Speer was far too smart and observant to miss much of anything, much less a resource and man power guzzling operation like the camp system.)

    Speer dedicated himself to selling the image of the "good nazi" - both at Nuremburg and after his release from prison. Don't get me wrong, he was a brilliant man but extremely calculating and cunning when it came to saving his own skin after the war and rehabilitating his public image (he soon realized an apologia for the regime was a lost cause, but his own personal mea culpa and pleading ignorance could do much to polish his name in the history books.)

    Truth be told, At Nuremberg the Americans helped him a bit since they had a vested interest in having a "decent Nazi" to point to for the American public, a way to show they weren all evil mosters - just some. Behind the scenes geopolitics were already realigning and we needed Germany as an ally against the (allies of last year) Soviets. It wasn't going to be easy to get the Americans to change their views of Germans in general, but Speer's"good Nazi" performance and the "we didn't know" defense of millions of Germans helped move it along.

    Much of what he said and claimed was accepted in the 60's and 70's, with some asking questions or doubting him. After his death much has come to light that demonstrated the extent of his subterfuge and dishonesty in his personal PR campaign.

    Gitta Sereny wrote a very in-depth bio of Speer, she spent a month at his home interviewing him before his sudden death (of a heart attack in a London hotel room, in bed with a 30 year old woman who was a bit of a Nazi groupie. He was in London for yet another PR media appearance/ interview on his latest book). Even Sereny (a victim of Nazi persecution) was charmed by Speer, but she also saw through much of his facade - at least more than most at that point in time.

    The book by Serney "Albert Speer: His Battle with the Truth" is well worth the read, but twenty years after its publication even it is looked upon as far to accepting of Speer's BS. I think if you dug deeper, and stepped away from Speer giving you "his history" (its much like LRH relaying a very different personal history than the others wittnessed) you might learn quite a bit more about the man and his true motivations and history, rather than the whitewashed version he tried so hard to sell to the public and the history books.
     
  18. scooter

    scooter Gold Meritorious Patron

    I have no doubt that Speer "gilded the turd" when it came to his own involvement - what I particularly liked was how he s-l-o-w-l-y actually took SOME responsibility as the years wore on.

    Also he began to see the craziness in his fellow inmates more and more over time. It was a gradual process.

    I did see that he bullshitted - no-one at that level wouldn't know what was happening, even if they didn't know the details. Speer even hinted as much as the years wore on.

    But I do believe that he joined up for idealistic reasons, and that was how "we" all got roped in (or at least the majority of us, some of the more obvious psychopaths and sociopaths I've known in the cult certainly didn't do it for altruistic reasons.)

    For me, it was a matter of what I COULD HAVE become. And that was scary.

    Very scary.

    Unlike Goebbels, Himmler, Goering et al, Speer SEEMED to have started out as a fairly decent human being. I might see if I can get hold of that autobiog you mentioned as I would like to see what were the warts he was hiding.

    Thanks for the info.
     
  19. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    LoL, that's about what I did too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  20. cakemaker

    cakemaker Patron Meritorious

    Oh really.......

    from
    http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=303485&sid=343001e0dd71d1f3180bf2e73bdc988a