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ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

Discussion in 'Freezone, Independents, and Other Flavors of Scien' started by Emma, Jun 22, 2008.

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  1. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Ah! I didn't know that.

    If we get one named Kali, we're toast, though. :D
  2. Reasonable Lady

    Reasonable Lady Patron with Honors

    That was the crux of Emma's post, the responses went a bit beyond that.:D
    I had no interest in the FZ when I joined this board, have ignored any signatures that link to the FZ and have not read any FZ forums. I don't see that the FZ has changed my perception of what ESMB really is.

  3. grundy

    grundy Gold Meritorious Patron

    Wow .. this is a hot button.

    Good Twin .. it wasnt me she was talking about. (When pixie mentioned one person being supportive above and beyond) - I was just trying to help with computers. And except my name, I wouldnt have a problem with people talking about me at all. Good OR bad.

    I do have to say, I have had offers from people about the free zone - and it did smack of recruitment to a degree. But, after a couple of comms, it dropped.

    I DO think that people who WANT the freezone should be able to find it, but I DO think that the FZ people proselytize on ESMB a little bit too much for my taste.

    I think people need to respect others opinions and not make others wrong for the opinions they express. At times, I have felt attacked for saying things. But I can let it roll off. Someone like (Pixie please dont take offense) Pixie, who mentioned that she isn't as strong as she could be yet, might not be as comfortable about just letting something go.

    Even I take things way too personally, and I am probably one of the more stable folks in my exness (in my opinion lol). (Of course crazy people ALWAYS think they are sane.) (and if that was non-sequitor - get over it :p )

    Anyway, just putting in my 2 pence into the discussion. (Or maybe a nickel.)

    (Btw - do you know why a quarter is a quarter? Not because it is a quarter of a dollar - but because it was worth a quarter of a Spanish piece of 8 (common currency for the colonies until the government stadardized money) - which could be broken into 8 bits. Which is why a quarter is also at times called 2 bits.)

    From - The Spanish dollar (also known as the piece of eight, the real de a ocho, or the eight real coin) is a silver coin, worth eight reales, that was minted in the Spanish Empire after a Spanish currency reform in 1497. It was legal tender in the United States until an Act of the United States Congress discontinued the practice in 1857. Through widespread use in Europe, the Americas and the Far East, it became the first world currency by the late 18th century. Many existing currencies, such as the Canadian dollar, United States dollar and the Chinese yuan, as well as currencies in Latin America and the Philippine peso were initially based on the Spanish dollar and other 8 reales coins.
  4. grundy

    grundy Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes it was non-sequitor .. but my 2 pence comment made me think of it ...
  5. Vittorio

    Vittorio Patron Meritorious

    I only got so far through this thread as it is so long.

    You kow if one FZer abused a child I wouldn't go after the whole FZ, the tech etc etc.

    I have worked in the health field where people who certain illnesses were looked after around the clock by untrained individuals, who got them up in the morning didn't bother cleaning their teeth, shouted at them and ran the place more like a slaughter house.

    I have laid in a hospital bed for days (in the UK) with no proper food and only one drink. On one visit, the nurse wanted me so badly out of the hospital bed that she gave me a drug which made me better from chronic pain within minutes. This wore off within an hour or so and the prescribed medication by the doctor did absolutely nothing and I was back to the pain again.

    So acredited medical help can be just as bad if not worse than Scientology.

    Who you get to treat you when you go for any therapy can be hit and miss. Unfortunately, your wealth and social status can be the deciding factor.

    When you get people together in groups where status and power are in place you get some really strange behaviour. It is rampant across society. Jocks feel it is OK to beat up the geeks, politicians don't resign their post when they have affairs, Doctors share patient details over dinner with friends.

    I am not in the Freezone as I don't feel there is a groupt out there for me. The 'best of the best' Pierre Ethier has not impressed me and Chris Black his Class VIII was nothing but disgraceful over on Terils forums, openly attacking the competition and all and sundry who were standard tech etc etc. The Illusioness who posts here was ousted from the forums. Teril allows all the shit people because of their high tech training I assume to 'do what thou wilt' and a lot of potential PC's and members decide that this is not for them.

    If what Teril puts forth is the best on offer then god help us! I'm afraid he will have trouble keeping anyone above 2.0 on the tone scale in his groups, which is why so many have disposed of the FZ, quietly and without sorrow.
  6. Cat's Squirrel

    Cat's Squirrel Gold Meritorious Patron

    Nor would I. I did my first personality test at Plymouth Org in 1975 and the place was a mess even then.

    It improved a bit by 1979 when I did my second one but the person responsible for that, Nigel Bunce, upped and joined the freezone soon afterwards.
  7. Neo

    Neo Silver Meritorious Patron

    Wow, I turn my back for a moment and this thread went out of control. Let's see if I can summarise my feelings regarding what I have read so far.

    First up - good to see you back boldgirl. Great posts.

    Next - I agree, Roan shouldn't have been banned. Although, it could get interesting when the 24hrs are up.

    Also - Thor, as a moderator you said we can call you any names, and you could take it. Well, I think 'pig fucker' wasn't extreme enough, how about - you're a Scientologist.

    Overall, I have liked ESMB as it has been. I don't use any Tech, and I don't really care to, but if others are going to preach it, then I don't think we should hold back from ridiculing it, if they are going to constantly give the credit to Hubbard and Scientology for changing their lives. Hubbard was a lying little fuck. Stop enslaving yourself to him, then expect to get a 'good for you' response here at the 'EX Scientologist Message Board'.

    But above all - give yourself the credit for your wins, no matter where you got them.
  8. Neo

    Neo Silver Meritorious Patron

    Can't we just take pot shots at you wherever you are? It's more fun that way.
  9. Emma,
    I would like to add my 2 cents. I came to this board because of what I saw about the old days at FCDC. I looked forward to the new posts on that each day. This board has been a pleasant experience for me.

    I also fell such empathy towards those who tell of the injustice and humiliation they experienced in the Church. I was a Scientologist for over 30 years.

    In my view the biggest thing wrong with Scientologists is their intolerance of ideas other than their own. Secondly, they have an incredibly stupid (in my view) rationale to justify Scientology and the Tech. Many Freezoners are the same way. They are just Scientology Lite. To me, it is the same B.S. but without product officers and real estate. You can take a person out of Scientology, but it takes a while to take the Scientology out of the person.

    I try to maintain civility towards the Freezoners, but I think they are foolish and many still have the know it all attitude, no compassion, and are dismissive of others. And I believe that they are spreading their poison here when they recruit anyone back into the cave of spirituality-at-the-end-of-a-tin-can.

    I haven’t read all the posts on this thread. I understand and agree with Pixie about the insidiousness of the Freezoners, But I am with Alanzo on freedom of speech.
    So my word to the Freezoners is a paraphrase of my boss Voltaire: I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death you right to say your bat-shit crazy ideas.

    I heard a true story about a man at Auschwitz who was praying. When a fellow prisoner asked him what he was praying for, he said “I’m thanking God.” The other guy said to him “What could you possibly be thanking God for?” He replied “I’m thanking God for not making me a Nazi.”

    Let freedom ring, Let freedom ring. Let them say what they want. If we disagree, we can say what we want too. Just monitor the civility.

    The Anabaptist Jacques
  10. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

  11. Emma

    Emma Con te partirò Administrator

    OH MY GOD.

    I knew this subject needed to be aired but I never expected this. It's taken me all night to wade though the posts thoroughly and I think I've taken it all in. I made some notes as I went through the posts and I'll post my thoughts in point form. It won't be in any order, so bear with me.

    - This thread was never about banning or removing individual Freezoners from ESMB. Once you start down that slippery slope, where do you draw the line? Can you imagine how colourless ESMB would have been over the last year without Alan's storys? (I know Alan isn't a "FZer" as such and hates that title, but in this thread I guess the Indies are included under the same umbrella)

    - We are not thought police. We can't tell people what they can & can't believe, or should or shouldn't do.

    - I don't want to make any FZer uncomfortable about posting here on ESMB. It was never my intention to single out anyone for attack.

    - We need to make a safe place for exes to say whatever they feel like saying - even if that includes "Management sucks but I do like the tech". I don't know of ANY ex who didn't come to that conclusion somewhere in their journey out. It's a "known" stage that just about everyone goes through.

    - Advertising and signature lines. This seems to be a hot area of concern. Perhaps one answer to this might be to disallow any form of advertising in sig lines.

    My other thought on advertising is this. Does reading someones sig line really make the reader do anything? I mean if someone wants to find the FZ they will find them, regardless if they advertise here. If someone isn't interested, then they will ignore it. Perhaps it's more of an annoyance factor than anything else.

    I'd appreciate more feedback on this.

    - Thor, Roan and all that. Firstly let me tell you I'm very disappointed in some posters here in the way they responded to Thor. I'm on a different time zone to most of you, I work a 40 hour week and I'm a single mother. I simply cannot moderate this board on my own. I need help. And if you think it's easy to find sane, balanced moderators then you simply are deluded. It took me AGES to find Maia, Thor & Ceres. I trust them all and will back them all because they are all doing the best job they can. Thor was on his own during the hottest period of this thread and did what he thought was RIGHT FOR ESMB. I have asked you previously to respect the moderators and I'm going to strongly ask you again.

    I disagree with Thor in one aspect though. I DO NOT think it is OK to call the moderators names. I realise Thor was being flippant in his comment but some of you took advantage of that. I wish every one of you could try to moderate a board that teeters on about every thin edge there can be in the Scientology world. We are trying to an agendaless, civil yet lively debating, discussion, recovery board that accepts all viewpoints. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to maintain that? No, you don't, because it's never been done before on a moderated message board.

    As for Roan, I have reinstated his membership because he wasn't given any warnings and the rules state that a member will be given warnings. I am not angry at Thor however, because he did what he thought was right and I understand why he did it. Roan & Alanzo completely disregarded Thor's decision and reposted a post that was deleted FOR A REASON, up to 6 times. Now it doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong to delete that post. That is NOT the point here. I know moderators will sometimes make errors and that why I have stated that you take it up with the moderator in a PM, and if its not resolved you take it up with me. You don't just fuck with a moderator until he has no choice BUT to ban you.

    You guys have GOT to understand. If we have no moderation we might as well call ourselves a.r.s and to hell with it.

    Usually ESMB is VERY lightly moderated and I intend it to stay that way. But every once in a while a thread gets out of control, as this one did, tempers flare and moderation IS NEEDED. I just hope Thor doesn't tell me "thanks but no thanks" after this episode :no: .

    - Back to the original purpose of the thread. God I'm glad I asked people to NOT get hysterical, otherwise we could have had a riot on our hands :duh: . I think it comes down to any perceived attempts at recruitment and "selling" of FZ services that is the crux of the matter. I think this can be achieved if people really are honest and respect what we are trying to do here.

    I see Alan Walter posting every day, and he is widely known to be the founder of Knowledgeism. Yet he doesn't recruit from here and he doesn't advertise. If someone asks a question he answers it and if someone wants to know something they PM him privately. I've NEVER had a report of Alan soliciting business in the backchannel. Same with Mike Goldstein. Mike answers questions honestly and candidly about Idenics and it's a pleasure to have both Alan & Mike on the board.

    On the other hand, I HAVE heard of unsolicited PMs coming from Rons Org people and other FZ sects. THIS IS NOT OK. Can I make it clearer? it's NOT OK. If people want to know about your services they will ask you.

    There IS a different between discussing what you do and believe, and trying to sell it. I know you guys know this and I think it has to stop. I didn't set up this board as an advertising venue for ANYTHING. It's primarily a discussion board and recovery board. It's also a place to hang out and relax. It's not a shopping mall.

    I'm going to throw it back to those (you know who you are) who fit the category of "sellers" to make a change. I'm not going to outline what you should and shouldn't do, or where you should and shouldn't post, but instead I'm going to leave it up to you. You know how I feel now about it and now you know how others feel about it. I think how you react to this will tell the story of your integrity.
  12. tookmeawhile

    tookmeawhile Patron with Honors

    I think the boards are perfect just how they are. If someone opens a nasty Freezone recruitment thread or makes wild claims, then I think one of the administrators should shut it down. Otherwise, I love how others on the boards are quick to "protect the boards" and give their own opinions to counter any wierd FZ recruitment.

    Personally, I didn't know about the Freezone or Ron's Org until I stumbled across the EXSMB's. I never felt pressured by anyone nor was I PM'ed about anything FZ. I think it's great that there are alternatives to the Co$ - it that's what one wants. BTW, I have not done anything regarding the tech since I opened my eyes a few months ago. I feel like a widower: I want to get through this grieving and re-evaluation of everything in my life since I was in Scientology for over 28 years. :duh:

    But to say that we newly ex's are vulnerable to FZ to me is unfounded. We were all reged and lied to constantly. :no: We should know by now not to get coerced or tricked into something we don't want. I may never do another thing with the "tech" but I do find comfort in the fact that if I really want to do my OT levels or anything else, that I have the choice and that there are some links, that others on the boards have posted, to the Freezone, Class VIII tapes AND to Madman and Mesiah and other critical Scientology books, Ron's insane web of lies Military history, whyaretheydead website, etc.
  13. Pixie

    Pixie Crusader

    Excellent post from Ladybird!! :clap: And FTS this is an really good idea, it would give some of us a chance to reevaluate where we stand, I have no doubt this forum helps us to move through things and it would be a very healing and healthy topic to discuss. :yes: Oh and by the way, just incase no one had noticed.. :nervous: I'm an "A" too.. :D
  14. dr3k

    dr3k Patron with Honors

    Scientology in any form is a complete and utter scam and people who are out but are practicing the policies and traditions of Scientology are just continuing to live in the illusion that any of it works (despite whatever ad-hominen nonsense you can make up to prove it does). The fact is, there are no super powers, there are not OTs there are no aliens ruling the galaxy in furtherance of a conspiracy and the FDA/AMA/APA/FBI did not do Scientology. This forum is for surviving Scientology, not letting it haunt around like the ten thousand pound gorilla's corpse rotting in the living room. Although your welcome to FZA was probably because you were probably not very nice to them (I saw the discussion btw ...)
  15. Pixie

    Pixie Crusader

    Good post Grundy, and no, of course no offence taken. I do admit I did go off the rails a little last night though and still haven't figured out why. I was not my usual calm and balanced self... :grouch: .. no..:no: I lost the plot and ended up in no mans land. :confused2:

    Indeed, I feel though that I have come far and fast as a result of this forum and have learned a lot, and have no doubt I have much more to learn. For me, it's just trying to find the balance, the balance one had before the cult. I was in a total state of fear, terror and constantly hysterical for the last twenty years, and I do not know why this is, but I guess we are just all different and it's affected us all in different ways.

    On the whole though, I feel things are balancing out, but for me, when the freezone skirts it's way into other ESMB threads with constant 'hubbardisms', my head does begin to boil...:storm: like so, however I do realize that it's me who needs to somehow deal with this and not just jump off the cliff without even breathing.. :no: You were right when you said it was a 'hot post', I agree, the hottest one I've ever experienced to date. :yes:
  16. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    After the Church of Scientology, and "TNX", and then Beliefnet, I told myself that I would never subject myself to censorship again on a Scientology message board, or in any other part of life.

    It's just not worth it.

    I'm afraid I have no respect for the rules when it comes to censorship. Psych spam is one thing, because it is not communication.

    But Roan's post was communication, and it was an important point he was making, and it was on-topic and very relevant. It should not have been censored in the first place.

    Therefore, I stand by what I did, and I support Roan in what he did. We made sure that his communication got through, and made it as difficult as possible for the censor to do his job.

    In this instance, I remain unhandled, and unapologetic.

    Kill me if you want.

    I don't care.
  17. nexus100

    nexus100 Gold Meritorious Patron

  18. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    "Kill me if you want"? Oh Alanzo! :ohmy: :melodramatic:

    Don't you agree that personal attacks have no place here? From what I have seen it is not the message but the way it was delivered. As Emma says, "If we have no moderation we might as well call ourselves a.r.s and to hell with it. " I really wouldn't want that, would you?
  19. Emma

    Emma Con te partirò Administrator

    Then what are you doing on a moderated board?

    Is it fine for me to register 6 sockpuppets and just go around taking pot shots at every poster I personally dislike because I can?

    Is it OK for someone to make an abusive and inflamitory post just to stir trouble because they are bored?

    Where do you draw the line?
  20. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Roan's message did not, and would not have, turned this place into ARS.
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