What's new

Ex-Sea Org & Degraded Beings

Gadfly

Crusader
Scn has a policy by LRH, a Flag Order as I recall, that any person who leaves the Sea Org MUST be a "DB". "DB" is Scientology-speak for "Degraded Being". It says what it means. He or she can't be hired by any Church organization. The implication is that the person is somehow flawed, incompetent, weak and unable to do anything useful.

Interestingly, the Sea Org member who has left was "able" and "competent" right up until the moment that this person "left" the Sea Org. This person may have been extremely able and competent, for many years, while working in the Church of Scientology. But, we are supposed to accept that when this person leaves the Sea Org, that suddenly, by some act of Magic, that this person now loses all "competence" and "ability" and instantly becomes a "DB"?

What is strange is that MANY people in the Church of Scientology "believe" this type of nonsense. Many people "think with" and "act with" this sort of ridiculous idea. Of course, what dedicated Scientologists fail to realize is that people often believe nonsense, that this aspect of humanity is quite common (believing nonsense), and that they themselves are quite guilty of this very same liability (accepting and believing nonsense).

I used to think that anything able to be understood must be "true". I thought this before SCN, but I further added onto this belief by studying the concept:

ARC = Understanding

Initially, I thought that "understanding" meant that it was a valid or legitimate "understanding". I finally came to realize that people can understand just about anything, because ideas can be connected in an infinite variety of ways, and also ideas can be accurate, vague, well aligned with other ideas, poorly aligned with what they purport to relate to, and so forth. In other words, "understanding" is quite relative. Understanding is entirely a "mental" phenomena, subject to all the imperfections of things mental.

For instance, one could state:

"All red newts are evil and must be destroyed."

This can be understood. But, just because it can be understood does not mean that it is true. I can understand something, but NOT agree with it.

The idea of ARC contains a major flaw in this regard.

ARC contains the concept of REALITY, which basically means "agreement". The ARC formula, where ARC equals understanding strongly implies that to understand something then one must "agree with it". That is not at all true. It is very much NOT true. Of course, the Scientology indoctrination system (i.e. learning via courses, events, briefings, etc.) involves extensive agreeing with what you are told. You come to understand based almost entirely on agreeing. In fact, if you disagree, YOU are attacked, and you get sent for correction - to find the reason WHY you disagree; which in the Scientology belief system MUST involve out-ethics, misunderstood words, false data, or some other convenient reason explaining why you are not readily and happily grabbing onto and fully accepting what is being rammed down your throat. LRH was very good at figuring out a way to effectively indoctrinate people. He was no dummy, whatever else he may have been.

I can entirely understand the concepts, ideas and logic underlying why Muslim fanatics tie bombs to themselves and kill innocent children. But, I don't agree with it at all. There are many examples where people can completely understand something and NOT agree with it. I can understand the theories underlying modern psychiatry, but I don't agree with them. I can understand the theories of Plato, but not agree with what he says. Some people might say that you don't really "understand" something unless you agree with it. That is completely false. What you are failing to do, and this isn't at all bad, is to view it exactly as someone else views it. You can completely understand something while having NO agreement at all with the subject. You can also completely understand something while having little or NO affinity with a subject.

I don't "like" the ideas and actions of the Christian priests of the Inquisition. I can have affinity with the facts and data about them, meaning that I am willing to be in the same place as the information, and even observe what they do in real life (if time didn't separate me from the events), BUT I can still very much have low affinity and low agreement with these same things - YET have full understanding. The concept of ARC is severely flawed in this regard. Few Scientologists that I have talked to about this can ever see this, because their own FIXED IDEAS prevent them from honestly observing in the area. In fact, Scientology is arranged in such a way to make questioning of any sort nearly impossible.

So, back to the idea that "all people who leave the Sea Org are Degraded Beings". This idea can be understood, but based on honest observation, it is utterly a false idea, and quite stupid really. It is one of many "stupid" ideas in the Sea Org and in the Church of Scientology. Yet the obedient Sea Org members agree with it entirely, largely because they have no choice based on the enforcement of LRH policy as being "always utterly correct and beyond questioning". To continue to agree with such nonsense as this idea about ex-Sea Org members being degraded beings, and to "think" with such nonsense, a person MUST refuse to look at the facts of observable reality. In other words, a person must allow their thoughts to remain senior and above what he or she observes. This actually violates what LRH states in the KNOW to MYSTERY SCALE, where LOOKING is far higher than THINKING. But, the genius of LRH in certain areas doesn't prevent the mindless masses of followers from failing to see how they routinely violate one aspect of LRH data in favor of another. That is a whole other subject - contradictions in LRH data. There are many.

Any sane person can look around and find VERY successful people who have left the Sea Org. Obviously these people are NOT degraded, and in some cases these people are extremely able and have achieved much after leaving the Sea Org. But, the moronic organization (and LRH) demands acceptance of this concept, a concept that is entirely verifiable as false. This is one example of how the demands of an oppressive religion or ideology can disable the thinking of a human mind. The common denominator here is that THINKING becomes senior to OBSERVATION. The "thinking" is created through systematic indoctrination of the data of the ideology and/or belief system. Thinking about the facts of reality should never supersede observing the facts of reality, but it often does in the routine functioning of Scientology staff and public members.

The scary part is that the obedient members can be so easily duped into believing such utter and complete nonsense. Please realize that this one example is just one tiny example out of an ocean of many possible examples inherent in the observable functioning reality of the Church of Scientology. Of course, this lunacy goes on in MANY other areas of life, and is not at all restricted to Scientology. Though, the strict controlled indoctrination aspect of Scientology makes it easier to connect the ridiculous with the controlled information that is force-fed to the members.
 
Last edited:

Happy Aberree

Patron with Honors
Welcome aboard Gadfly!!! The more the merrier.

Regarding ex-SO being DBs:

I re-call the berthings of SO members around Sydney - dirty, in dis-repair, overcrowded, dark.

I re-call the pay of SO members - $40 for a 90 hr week (and about half the time, you don't get paid, and if you are CLO, you get paid around 6 weeks of the year - and it's not even $40)

I re-call the food of the SO members - loaf of bread, block of cheese for lunch; loaf of bread, stew for dinner; beans and rice for bad times.

When a person first leaves the SO, he may have a hard time for a while, but most current SO Members are far more degraded than the ex-SO's ever were or will be.

Imagine how bad you would have to be doing, to be living in a room with 15 other people, working 90 hours a week, eating bare-minimum food, getting about 5-6 hrs sleep a night, owning practically nothing, receiving $40 pocket money from time to time and being issued 1 set of clothes that you have to make last for 5 years (or buy your own out of the $40) and walking everywhere (no car, no bike)... how bad off would you be? Degraded right?

Well that is degraded - unless you are one of the stellar SO members who say that people who give that shit up are the degraded ones...
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
...

I used to think that anything able to be understood must be "true". I thought this before SCN, but I further added onto this belief by studying the concept:

ARC = Understanding

...

The idea of ARC contains a major flaw in this regard.

ARC contains the concept of REALITY, which basically means "agreement". The ARC formula, where ARC equals understanding strongly implies that to understand something then one must "agree with it". That is not at all true. It is very much NOT true. Of course, the Scientology indoctrination system (i.e. learning via courses, events, briefings, etc.) involves extensive agreeing with what you are told. You come to understand based almost entirely on agreeing. In fact, if you disagree, YOU are attacked, and you get sent for correction - to find the reason WHY you disagree; which in the Scientology belief system MUST involve out-ethics, misunderstood words, false data, or some other convenient reason explaining why you are not readily and happily grabbing onto and fully accepting what is being rammed down your throat. LRH was very good at figuring out a way to effectively indoctrinate people. He was no dummy, whatever else he may have been.

...

This is an excellent dissertation on ARC.

I always equated "understanding" to a certain degree of "as-isness". The more one understands something, the easier and less complex it becomes.

So, when I see something becoming more complex, like many interpretations in Scientology, I stay away from them, because I don't understand them, and agreement with them will make it worse.

.
 

angel

Patron with Honors
Degraded Beings

I always thought A DB was a thetan who could not confront picking up another body.

I no longer have a tech dictionary around so I can't look this up.

I have heard people in the orgs refer to other's as DB's though.

I second Happy Aberree's opinion that if there are DB's they are the one's on the inside. The truth is now so easily accessible in regards to Ron and Scientology. You would have to be A DB to disregard the truth and stay...

Welcome to ESMB Gadfly :welcome:

Jen
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
"But, the genius of LRH in certain areas doesn't prevent the mindless masses of followers from failing to see how they routinely violate one aspect of LRH data in favor of another. That is a whole other subject - contradictions in LRH data. There are many."

I agree with that one.

"Thinking about the facts of reality should never supersede observing the facts of reality . . . "

I don't agree with this one, for without it we would be fully and forever limited in our thinking by the limits of the observable universe. In consequence we would today have no Einstein's Theories nor Quantum Mecahanics nor a host of other very useful areas of knowledge about this thing we call "Reality".
 

Gadfly

Crusader
"But, the genius of LRH in certain areas doesn't prevent the mindless masses of followers from failing to see how they routinely violate one aspect of LRH data in favor of another. That is a whole other subject - contradictions in LRH data. There are many."

I agree with that one.

"Thinking about the facts of reality should never supersede observing the facts of reality . . . "

I don't agree with this one, for without it we would be fully and forever limited in our thinking by the limits of the observable universe. In consequence we would today have no Einstein's Theories nor Quantum Mecahanics nor a host of other very useful areas of knowledge about this thing we call "Reality".

Leon, I actually agree with you completely. I should have qualified it some. Thinking about the facts of reality should never supersede observing the facts of reality where direct observation and experience is possible, obvious and clear. And especially where this involves belief systems and ideologies that have a potential to harm real people. Thoughts and ideas need to "link" to things, and life can get very nasty when ideas are allowed to run off unattached to any possible observation or experience. That is obviously where religion can get so oppressive. People "think" with notions that have nothing to do with anything, and of course, these absurd notions get enforced on people to their detriment.

By "looking", I don't mean necessarily with the eyes or with only the five senses. Imagination is a way to "look" that often has little to do with "thinking". To me, visualizing with the "mind's eye" is entirely valid. I mean that usual "thinking", in words and with mental concepts strung together about things, is severely limited, due to its very nature as a system of interrelated thinkingness. That aspect of thinking involves notions about things. That aspect of thinking involves pale shadows of the actual things. IDEAS about some aspect of reality are weak replacements for ANY actual direct experience with some aspect of reality - visible or invisible. Any smart and honest quantum physicist will readily admit that the IDEAS and the MATH explaining the sub-atomic phenomena are not at all the same as the REALITY those things are so very well predicting. Ideas about things are NEVER the same as the things. Far too many people forget that or never understood that in the first place. Ideas can only always fall short of the actualities they attempt to define, explain or map. In science, any theory is fundamentally ONLY a theory, although many people and even some scientists forget that fact. It matters little that the model or theory can predict correctly 100% of the time. As any student of General Semantics knows full well, the MAP is NOT the terrain. Always. Most intelligent scientists also know that. The ideas about something are NOT that something. Ideas can often enable prediction and control, BUT few people truly understand just how different the ideas are from the actualities the ideas describe or define.

People have a sorry tendency to allow all sorts of very strange ideas to fill their minds; ideas that have little or nothing to do with any possibility of reality. This gets horrible when this same people, operating largely on imaginary notions in their heads, enforce oppressive behavior on others based upon their "ideas".

But also, for many people, ideas about things so often fall so far from actual honest experience and observation about those same things. When I say that looking should remain senior to thinking, I mean so as regards anything that can be directly experienced or observed. If it is raining outside, yet some Church leader wants to enforce the notion that it is instead sunny, well that is the idiotic "thinking" I mean to oppose. Any idea that takes the place of honest legitimate observation or experience is entirely nuts. If there is nothing to see or view, well then imagine about it all you want. But, these ideas should never be allowed to harm other people.

There is no theory or model of an atom that actually clearly explains a real atom. Any theory is always and only a map or model. It is always only an approximation. Nobody has ever seen an actual atom, nor an electron or nucleus. What people have "seen" are effects of this thing one calls an atom, or electron or nucleus in relation to other things such as magnetic fields in bubble chambers.

Also, if you observe something, such as a pattern of particle activity, any idea SHOULD directly relate, correlate and align with the observation. Simple scientific methods support that idea. I in no way meant to imply that agreement with what seems to be there should determine all thought. I do mean that thoughts about things should not take the place of careful observations or experiments about those same things. In my view, as with Einstein's, imagination is far more important than knowledge.

Ideas should be free to go anywhere. But, ideas should not be free to enslave and harm others.
 

Outethicsofficer

Silver Meritorious Patron
Well said

Welcome to the ESMB, I am astounded at the number of people in my area who will not 'LOOK', but hey up until recently I wasn't looking too hard myself,:duh:

Once I did look, into areas we had been told not to look, 25 years in Scientology unmocked and it feels great.:happydance:

James
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
"All red newts are evil and must be destroyed."

Newt Gingrich with a red face. Does that count?
NewtGingrich_02.jpg
 

apple

Patron Meritorious
DB's? Not possible! The people I find on this site are articulate, intelligent and capable. I am humbled.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
I was convinced I was a DB when I left the Church. I was also convinced I was Clear. Try reconciling those two.
 

apple

Patron Meritorious
DB's? Not possible! The people I find on this site are articulate, intelligent and capable. I am humbled.

Actually ALL the DB's on this site are articulate, intelligent and capable.LOL

What is a DB?.... Is it someone that makes a fake religion, exploits, manipulates, lies, enslaves and causes harm to their patrons? Is LRH a DB? In my eyes yes. So is Stalin, Hitler, Matoff......
 
Be still my heart...

Oh goodie! Another articulate, deep thinking, long-posting capable wordsmith on the boat...I think I have a crush already! :flowers:
Welcome, Gadfly, Welcome!

Who in their right mind would call these kinds of discourses degraded, or the people capable of producing them degraded beings? It's just a groupthink slander meant to use fear and shame to control. Don't buy into it, anybody. You'll be healthier and happier not thinking about your fellow humans this way.

If ARC is a real concept, and effective as a practice, why is there so much brutality on post throughout the church? It seems the most blatant and self-evident outpoint of them all to me. The church of Scientology does not stand up to close observation as a loving, kind, or productive place to be. Remember "Look, don't think?" Those of you who are lurking here, and are struggling, please apply that to your own current circumstances. I wish you well.

Gadfly, the folks here drool with anticipation to hear personal stories, so please feel free to tell us yours, as you are comfortable doing so. Welcome!
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Oh goodie! Another articulate, deep thinking, long-posting capable wordsmith on the boat...I think I have a crush already! :flowers:
Welcome, Gadfly, Welcome!

Who in their right mind would call these kinds of discourses degraded, or the people capable of producing them degraded beings? It's just a groupthink slander meant to use fear and shame to control. Don't buy into it, anybody. You'll be healthier and happier not thinking about your fellow humans this way.

If ARC is a real concept, and effective as a practice, why is there so much brutality on post throughout the church? It seems the most blatant and self-evident outpoint of them all to me. The church of Scientology does not stand up to close observation as a loving, kind, or productive place to be. Remember "Look, don't think?" Those of you who are lurking here, and are struggling, please apply that to your own current circumstances. I wish you well.

Gadfly, the folks here drool with anticipation to hear personal stories, so please feel free to tell us yours, as you are comfortable doing so. Welcome!


Blushing. Why thank-you S & L! :blush:

In truth, I doubt many people in Scientology are even familiar with this Flag Order on Ex-SO & DBs. Just as most aren't familiar with the various nasty activities that the Church uses in their attempts to silence critics and stop enemies. I doubt many Scientologists call these discussions much of anything, because for the most part, none read these because they are instructed not to by ethics officers.

There is truth here and there is nonsense here just as there is anywhere.

ARC is a tool. I wouldn't call it a "practice". Though, it can be "practiced" in many different ways. It can and is often used, in conjunction with the Tone Scale, to control, and manipulate people. It is common for Scientology members to go into to some area, and AGREE AGREE AGREE, find some common point of agreement, so that they can then slide in whatever REAL activity the Church wants to realize. Look at the "tech" of "finding a ruin". This is based on ARC and trickery. The person is talked to about what is bothering him or her. Ask the person what is the thing most upsetting or harming their life. Get them to talk about it. This gives the Scientology practitioner the needed data to AGREE with the person, to "understand" the person, so that then, per LRH, the SCN practitioner should/must cause the person to really get smashed into this horrible aspect of their life (the "ruin"). The trained Scientology practitioner then asks the person, "what would happen if this got worse"? The intention and aim here is to REALLY cause the person to wallow in, to become immersed in, and to get overwhelmed with the horribleness of it all. I think that this is a part of the DISSEMINATION DRILL.

Then, using what you know from the person from what they have told you, you keep telling it back to them through Communication thereby increasing Reality (agreement), while feigning interest, care and concern (Affinity). This is all a direct USE of the concept of ARC. Finally, when they are totally caved-in (the whole purpose of the process), the person is told "Scientology can handle that". There is no proof that Scientology can handle that. But the trained Scientology practitioner says that with Tone 40, with high enthusiasm, and many times the person will go with it. In other words, the person will take it all hook, line and sinker.

That is one example of using ARC to manipulate another human being. There are many more examples.

Me, personally, when I studied ARC, I saw pretty quickly how it could be and how it was being used to control people. For instance, any reasonably good-looking guy, armed with this data, can walk into any bar and easily pick-up women and take advantage of them. Talk to them, agree with them, find out what interests them, tell them what they want to hear, be enthusiastic, and then take them home and have your way with them. I am sure that this has been done more than a few times using the "tech" of ARC. Increasing the R, C and U bring up the Affinity until the point is reached where you will be VERY close indeed (affinity involves the idea of the willingness to share space with something and also the reduction of distance between any two things). If you did it right, and it isn't too difficult to do it right, the lady will happily let you get as close as you'd like!

As I mentioned in another post, while there is a relationship between ARC and Understanding, the "understanding" is very much not necessarily valid, important or worthy of much of anything else. It is just a mechanism. It works in a Communist slave camp as well as in a Muslim fanatic training regiment. It simply relates these three ideas:

1) Affinity - the willingness to be in the same space as something else, which often manifests as "liking" or "attraction"
2) Reality - agreement; the agreement can be about anything, no matter how dumb, stupid or absurd the idea might be that is being agreed with
3) Communication - talking, writing to another, etc. But with the aim to INCREASE agreement and affinity so as to GET WHAT YOU WANT!

It isn't "lofty", "sacred" or anything else. There is nothing in the concept that implies "kind and loving". Interestingly, I also took it that way when I first studied it.

LRH says in more than a few places that ideas like "love" and "kindness" are not important in Scientology. He doesn't hide that. In issues on ethics he makes it clear that the ONLY thing that matters is GETTING THINGS DONE - primarily getting things done that support and forward the goals of Scientology. Understand that when one joins Scientology, that you are continuously indoctrinated with information that increases your affinity with the entire subject and activities, because your are gradually tricked into agreeing with more and more aspects of the subject. Also, often people are constantly "being nice" to you (affinity). Keeping the affinity up at all times greases the machinery for getting you to accept the ideas and AGREE. The "gradient scale" is used very effectively in Scientolgy to turn "raw meat" (the new unindoctrinated potential future member) into a fanatical and loyal Scientology adherent (an "upstat").

The same process could intelligently be done with anything. Notice that "intelligence" does not imply goodness or rightness; it is entirely amoral. There were probably some very intelligent Nazi scientists working out better ways to quickly and efficiently exterminate Jews. Intelligence is like ARC in that regard; it all depends how it is applied and used.

For me, I admire aspects of eastern philosophies and even raw Christianity where the message is "love thy fellow man", and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". The message resonates with me. THOSE messages do not exist in Scientology. I consider Scientology grossly flawed as a spiritual path because it omits these fundamental messages of love and compassion.

In fact, ARC IS a real concept that can be applied. Your error, and others have made the same mistake, is assuming that this somehow implies using it for "goodness", "lightness", "compassion" and "love. It doesn't. I was tricked that way too; but I did it to myself (we all do). I assumed it even though there was no reason to.

I remember sitting at a reg's desk many years ago, right at the beginning of my involvement with Scientology, having just talked about the Grade Chart and OT Levels with a local Org senior executive. I commented, "there must be a great deal of love here". He looked at me, and I actually noticed his uncomfortableness (but I suppressed it), and he said, "Yes, but it is a quiet love". He really didn't know what to say. Apparently the idea was so foreign to him. He was an old time OT 7 with a great deal of technical and administrative training. He was just using ARC and telling me what he thought I needed to hear, to build ARC, and get me to buy services.

______________

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
 
Last edited:
Top