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Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Tanstaafl, Dec 2, 2007.

  1. Wisened One

    Wisened One Crusader

    I almost stared a new thread on homosexuality and bi-sexuality.

    Wanted to know what ex-scn's now thought of this topic.

    lrh's view always seemed sorta homophobic and a bit strange, imo.

    Since leaving scn, I had quite a few friends who were gay (and/or lesbien/bi). And they seemed very nice, really fun to talk to and hang out with!

    Also: my views have expanded on this topic. I no longer think of it the same way when I was in scn.

    Never had the curiousity to try that, myself.

    But wondered if there are any exes who DID try homosexuality or bi-sexuality.
  2. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever


    Having said that, to me, it seems irrelevant to anything at all, except for mating, whether a person is gay, bi, or straight. Outside of that, it's just about agreements between you and your partner, and the others involved in your life.

    Where you bump your uglies is really nobody's business, unless you have some promise to someone about what sort of way you can use them. Parents sometimes get upset when their child is gay, because they think that means they are also _____ (insert stupid generality or association from some past experience). Same with kids brought up in retarded environments where xenophobic attitudes are taught or tolerated. (I am annoyed when women are gay, because it means I can't have sex with them)
  3. grundy

    grundy Gold Meritorious Patron

    Hey. As I said elsewhere, it takes all kinds.

    I think gays are fine. The more gay men there are, the more women left for me. :thumbsup:

  4. Operating DB

    Operating DB Truman Show Dropout

    I got into scn thinking it could "cure" me of being gay and become straight as I believed all my problems stemmed from that ruin. Whenever it was addressed in auditing I actually felt better about being gay! There was no homophobia in the mission that I was involved with (well , maybe a tiny bit). Of course I never became straight. Gayness is just another characteristic like eye color, skin color, etc. I know I was born gay. I knew I was since I was 6 or 7. It's not something one chooses or decides on. Just as I had no choice in choosing my height, eye color, etc. I guess I feel lucky in that I know 100% that I am gay rather than being all confused and caved in by it or being lured into a ex-gay ministry where they really do a number on gay people! Let's not got there!

    When I went to the local org for the very first in my life to get "handling"
    on the subject I sensed the ethics officer was VERY uncomfortable and scared of me, like I was going to corrupt here just by being in her space. She gave me four references to study in the courseroom none of which had anything to do with gayness or how to deal with it. This baffled me! I didn't really run into any homophobia at ASHO or AOLA. I did meet a guy while looking for a job in LA that had scathing words for Ruth Minshull's book "How to Choose People" which railed on gays being 1.1 etc just like hu66ard did. This was the first time meeting a scientologist who had an opposing view on the subject. I didn't know what to make of his comments at the time as it countered the official views of the cult.

    Anytime I read about hu666ards views on gays I pretty much brushed it off and took his comments with a grain of salt, believe it or not. I thought how could anyone, especially someone as lofty as lrh really believe and say such things! LOL.

    I never "practiced" homosexuality while in the cult (for nine years). I knew that it would be a grave ethics offense. I had a pc that I audited who was gay and he ended up being expelled from the church for having a boyfriend and having sex. It wasn't long after that that I escaped the cult. He was the frist person I came out to after I finally came out of the closet.

    My very own FSM was very homophobic but also was very bigoted and arrogant anways. When he turned me onto dianetics and pulled my ruin I didn't give him my "gay" ruin but something else since I was way too uncomfortable to broach the subject. He's still in the cult. Serves him right!

    Grundy, your welcome to have all the women because I have no interest there LOL

    Btw, are there any other gay people people on this forum??
  5. feline

    feline Patron Meritorious

    I think that people should be allowed to be exactly what and who they are. It makes absolutely no impact on me who anyone sleeps with or what their gender is. And I certainly wouldn't subject someone who IS gay to the concept that they are somehow broken and need to be fixed. That makes no sense.

    People just need to be exactly who they are. Period.
  6. EP - Ethics Particle

    EP - Ethics Particle Gold Meritorious Patron


    Several have so indicated in their posts and it immediately became a non-issue! :thumbsup: I bolded your question and you might want to invite folks to PM you re this topic.


  7. Wisened One

    Wisened One Crusader

    Odb: Yeah, I used to have to turn away gays and lesbiens from certain auditng actions as a Reg.

    Or the ones that were on basic courses, I had to dispense certain references like a Priest to them:

    Say three Hail lrh's and Two Sex and Pain's and be on your

    When I was on Staff, I became close friends with a gay who was on basic services at the time. He was also HIV positive. And I was judged and looked down upon for befriending him, too.

    Sadly, he was denied certain advanced services due to him being gay, tho. :no: And he left. Never learned what happened with him, since. I hope he's doing well!

    Thanks for all your posts, I'm learning a lot!
  8. riptide

    riptide Patron with Honors

    1.1 on the tone scale.......NOT

    That datum about gays and 1.1 on the tone scale is a piece of horse shit.
    Typical of the cult being stuck on the time track 1950's era. Laughable.

  9. Wisened One

    Wisened One Crusader

    :thumbsup: :hifive:

  10. NonScio

    NonScio Patron Meritorious

    Did scientology ever claim that it had "cured" a homosexual?
    I can imagine the relevant "sucess story"...

    "I once was gay, but now I'm sad...Sci-en-tol-ogy,how sweet the
    sound that saved a wretch like me"
  11. There were a few staff and public at FCDC in the early 1970s. As I understand it, the same held true in the 1980s. I don’t think there was a strong anti-gay bias at FCDC that was more than in the general culture. But in Clearwater it is different. There is a major anti-gay bias in the community in Clearwater. I recently talked to some old friends who somehow were glad that China was not allowing a lesbian couple to adopt children. It made their day. Also, many of the locals I know are against homosexual marriages. I would say at least 4 out of 5 of the divorced Scientologists I know want to uphold the sanctity of marriage.
    Seriously though, I think the current anti-gay bias in the Church has grown in the same proportion as the bias against the other imagined enemies and dangers the Church creates. As the prosperity and civil rights of those people whom the Church demonizes expands, such as gays, the poor, mental health professionals, etc. it is easy for the Church to convince its members that society is going downward and the Church needs more financial support from its true believers.

    The Anabaptist Jacques
  12. Carmel

    Carmel Crusader

    Yep, I 'tried' it or mucked around with it in the '70's. In the alternative scene those days, ya just about tried or mucked around with everything and anything. It wasn't my scene though. I didn't really want to go there and without a bit of peer pressure, I probably wouldn't have.

    My eldest son is gay (he's teckid - on this board on occasion). I also audited gays, so it's probably from the perspective as a parent and as an auditor that I have my reality on the subject.

    As an auditor and C/S I came across a fairly high percentage of gays. That was in the early 80's. At that time in Sydney Org, it wasn't a huge problem or talked about much. When the AO arrived though, the gay thing became an issue - OT eligibility and all that.

    A lot of gay pc's had it as their 'ruin', so we often addressed it in session. On some occasions that I recall, that 'ruin' got handled - where the person had some this lifetime consideration that they discovered and blew. I knew these two of these people who years later were still maintaining their new found happiness as hetros.

    In the many cases of auditing gays, their homosexuality wasn't 'cured', but their 'ruin' about it all was - at least until the arbitrary kicked-in in the org when ya got sent to ethics for it.

    As a parent, I can wholeheartedly say that I totally get and believe you, when you say you were born gay! (and btw Zac, I'm not talking for you, I'm maybe just talking about you :p ).

    I believe Zac was born gay. It was more than obvious since he was a little boy. He didn't choose to be gay, anymore than I chose to be hetro. No amount of auditing, counselling, or whatever would or could change that.

    Some of our scn 'friends' didn't like it. They considered him out-ethics for being gay and/or having sex. I tried to deal with this to no avail. My viewpoint was (and is), that they haven't and wouldn't deny themselves that sexual intimacy that all of us desire (and all that goes with it), so why the hell should they try and deny Zac of it! Just why? What was the harm for chrissake? Why beat him up for facing facts and making a life for himself? :angry:

    Zac was getting indications as insidious as "go to ethics, write up your o/ws and handle it". Some of his old school friends disconnected from him, cause he was obviously 1.1 :eyeroll: .On the odd occasion when I'd hear some SO member on the phone to him (obviously doing the same drill), I'd take the phone and rip shit out of them and get rid of them, but I couldn't protect him from the constant disapproval he continually copped from those he knew within the CofS.

    As a parent, this was heart breaking. Here was our beautiful boy, very mature and responsible for his years, with the biggest heart, being treated like shit. Needless to say, we ended up getting those people out of our lives. (but that's not to say that scn group think on the matter didn't rear its ugly head on occasion).

    In short order Zac (being an independant chap), created a life for himself within circles where homosexuality wasn't a problem. He's been doing very well since, however that is not to say that he has zero angst about all he went through as a kid, in scn circles, because of his sexuality.
  13. Wisened One

    Wisened One Crusader

    Wow, Ceedia, good on you for protecting your boy from the stupid scn-group think! :hifive:

    My grandmother always said that to me, too. That people were born gay.

    I agree.
  14. Operating DB

    Operating DB Truman Show Dropout

    WO, what were these certain auditing actions and advanced services? Did these rules apply during a certain time period or area of the country? Michael Pattinson made it thru OT8 and it still didn't 'cure' him of his gayness. I wonder why he would have been allowed on the advanced levels and Flag if what you say is the case?

    Glad I never made it past DCSI while in the cult! I knew that the advanced levels weren't for me anyways once I learned what they were about. Funny that I was allowed to attest to Clear while still being gay. I always thought Dianetics was supposed to cure gayness. HA!
  15. Lovesnightsky

    Lovesnightsky Silver Meritorious Patron

    A young man came to the org while I worked there and was openly gay. He was confused because he was in love with a woman and wanted to marry her, but had a problem in that he was gay.
    While he was on course he was given the references about gays many times. His final success story clearly stated he was "cured" and that he had become gay because a bully at school had beaten him violently and called him a "puff", which with auditing he had identified and was now "normal".
    Anyway, to cut a long story short, he was "cured" of his gayness and confusion about marrying this woman and went on his merry way...
  16. Moonchild

    Moonchild Patron with Honors

    Interesting; not that I particularly wish to invest in the whole "past-life" bit, but if something similar to the incident you describe had happened to someone in a "past life" without the opportunity to have it audited-out?

    Makes yer fink, dunnit?
  17. Operating DB

    Operating DB Truman Show Dropout

    I enjoyed reading your posts and thank you! Thank you Ceedia for the link to your son's (teckid) thread. I find it interesting (and skeptical) that there are a few stories here of pc's changing from gay to straight from whatever form of counseling/therapy. I have never met a person who had this happen. I have lots of gay friends and have met hundreds and hundreds of gay guys (and quite a few lesbians) over the years so I'm finding it hard to believe that someone could seemingly easily become straight through counseling but I can't rule out the possibility. I'm thinking this may be the exception to the rule however. Conversely could a straight person who had a problem being straight become gay through counseling? Being skeptical I wonder if these formerly gay pc's think they're now straight when in actuality they've suppressed their inherent gayness. I have met gay guys who were in love with a women, not sexually, however, yet still knew they were gay.The founder of the first ex-gay ministry claims he overcame his homosexuality but later "recanted" and left the organization and got back with his lover. Later there was an ex-gay who became the poster boy for the Religious Right (in America). Some time later he was spotted in a gay bay in D.C. and was outed and had to resign. I would find it interesting to meet someone who is absolutely certain he went from gay to straight. Maybe it's hard for me to comprehend this as I'm a definite "Six" on the Kinsey Sexuality Rating Scale (totally and without question gay).

    Just some thoughts......Thank you for listening!
  18. Carmel

    Carmel Crusader

    Hey ODB,

    I'm with you on this one. I don't believe any amount of auditing could turn a true gay into a hetro. However, I do believe that some hetro's who have turned 'gay' (or supposedly have), can be helped with auditing.

    Many gays who are living a lie in a hetro relationship can and have been helped with auditing. They are finally free, can let go of the constant withold and finally have a life with the passion and intimacy that they desire (as a gay).

    By the same token, some hetros living a lie in a gay world can also be helped. They can let go of that aberration which denies what they truely want but possibly can't have.

    Have I confused you? Sounds a bit whacko, but I reckon it's how it is.

    Cheers mate,
  19. scooter

    scooter Gold Meritorious Patron

    Just to throw in my personal 2 cents worth;

    i once thought I may be gay

    I hung around gays, got to know some quite well, spent time living in a gay house but never found myself really comfortable with the whole scene.

    decided I was undoubtedly straight and left it at that.

    joined the hubbardites a few years later.

    Several years after that, found myself getting contemptual about gays but let it ride, as it was "in the Tech."

    Still happily talked to gays on an individual basis and never held it against anyone who was gay (and there were several on staff and in the SO all the time I was on staff.)

    left staff and then joined Narconon, where there were plenty people who'd turned to drugs to handle the problem of being gay.

    ran into the institutionalized discrimination that existed in narconon about gays, again based on Hubbard

    Tried to handle a few, but only if they wanted to handle - never pushed it.

    Left the Co$, left the prejudice that I'd taken on.

    Can't understand why I let myself become intolerant in the first place :confused2:
  20. Operating DB

    Operating DB Truman Show Dropout

    Indeed. I had to read that last idea of heteros living a lie in a gay world. Haven't encountered that one but who knows! I can't imagine a hetero wanting to be gay. Maybe if perchance he/she saw something in the gay culture that they thought was overwhelmingly cool and wanted to be a part of it. Something like snapping terminals or going into the winning valence of a gay identity.

    I know many straight women (pejoratively referred to as "fag hags") who love hanging out with gay guys. Some of these women wish they could marry a gay guy for the obvious reasons.