ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Is DM really a "true believer?"

Discussion in 'David Miscavige and Current Management' started by scooter, Aug 7, 2009.

  1. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    No, not knowing what F/N is is squirreling. And since LRH obviously nowhere defined what a bona fide F/N is (or instant read) then LRH is the greater squirrel producer than Miscavige.

    You mean because he declares them SPs but keeps them on the base? I can very well imagine that there are some advices or precedence cases by LRH. Moreover the real crime here is that Miscavige keeps them locked up (for that you can hate him) but not that he declares them SPs.

    If the Org slumps: Don't engage in "fund raising" or "selling postcards" or borrowing money. Just make more income with Scientology. It's a sign of very poor management to seek extraordinary solutions for finance outside Scientology. It has always failed. For Orgs as for pcs "Solve it With Scientology". Every time I myself have sought to solve finance or personnel in other ways than Scientology I have lost out. So I can tell you from experience that Org solvency lies in More Scientology, not patented combs or fund raising Barbecues.
    HCOPL 24feb64
    For that you can hate him, however, again, we don't know whether LRH changed his opinion via "advice".


    Would you stop to hate Miscavige if there were only 3 events?

    Jesse Prince:
    In 1983 LRH sent me an order in which he said he was tired of hearing about people being PTS (meaning Potential Trouble Source). He said people were only pretending to be PTS to hide their crimes. This is where Pretended PTS comes from. This is how the False Purpose Rundown was born. I was the pilot auditor for the FPRD, and, again, sleep and food were not prerequisites for this kind of auditing.

    LRH also sent me an order telling me that no matter where a person was on the Bridge, they could be pulled off their auditing if they weren't moving fast enough and put on the False Purpose Rundown. This effectively cancelled the Non-Interference Zone, which is the main subject of C/S Series 73, the bulletin Virginia McClaughry cited as being violated by the six-month sec checks on OT 7s. But this bulletin was effectively cancelled by LRH himself when he sent the orders down to Senior C/S Int Ray Mithoff and me about the FPRD. This is where it started. All of these actions were taken to increase income. It is the same with the six-month checks. They are an income source for Flag. The senior concern is income; the tech and the well being of the preclear are secondary.

    You see, this stuff originates not from Miscavige but from LRH.

    How does that violate policy? LRH's letter (1951) to the FBI:
    March 3,1951



    The following is a list of Communist Party members of suspects in our organization.

    LEO WEST: In charge Chicago office. Known.

    DAVE VROOMAN: Employee our Chicago office. Suspect.

    ROSS LAMEREAUX: " " " " ".

    SARA NORTHRUP (HUBBARD), formerly of 1003 S. Orange Grove Avenue, Pasadena, Calif. 25 yrs. of age, 5'10", 140 lbs. Currently missing somewhere in California. Suspected only. Had been friendly with many Communists. Currently intimate with them but evidently under coercion. Drug addiction set in fall 1950. Nothing of this known to me until a few weeks ago. Separation papers being filed and divorce applied for.

    MILES HOLLISTER: Somewhere in vicinity of Los Angeles Evidently a prime mover but very young. About 22 y 6'. 180 lbs. Black hair. Sharp chin, broad forehead, rather Slavic. Confessedly a member of the Young Communists. Center of most turbulenc[?] in our organization. Dissmissed [sic] in February when affiliations discovered. Active and dangerous. Commonly armed. Outspokenly disloyal to the U.S..

    GENE BENTON: Somewhere in Los Angeles. Permitted to resign when discovered to be a member of the Young Communists. Center of much turbulence in organization. Was living at Deane Apts. on North Carondelet. May still be there. Squat, beefy, about 5'8", about 30. Possibly a member of the Lincoln Brigade but not very probable. Right name, Weinberger.

    I see nothing special in Miscavige's behaviour that would contradict "traditions" as established by Hubbard, e.g. the attacks vs Jim Berry

    Irrational behavior on the 2nd dynamic is typical for religions. Hate Miscavige as much as you would hate Islam.

    But we also have no way of knowing whether Hubbard ordered the IAS to bring in more money. After all the fundraising keeps Scientology protected in some ways which would be the highest point on the admin scale.

    Books were always hooks but books were never policy. Thus you shouldn't complain about "books vs reality". "HCOPLs vs reality" is the valid complain. What HCOPL violation endangers the Church?

    And the DMSMH Clear is the one that others ordered and never received. It's hardly Miscavige's fault but Hubbard's.

    But a "true spirit group" that has been dissolved by the IRS is worth even less than then current Church.
  2. Outethicsofficer

    Outethicsofficer Silver Meritorious Patron

    Well said Scooter, many times I have said to terminals calling me from Flag to get me to complete my "basics extention crses" ,Patrick Merin the most recent, about changes I have noticed in the books etc. Their stock standard response is to talk about the event dvd wherein DM goes over the need for the recent releases etc, I always pull them up short when I say "you know of the verabl tech checklist don't you?" yep is the usual ack, "well those event dvds are all of them verbal tech!" at this point they shut the f**k up and get off the line fast.

    They don't want to know! My stepdaughter at Flag CMO does not want to know.

    So DM is source.

  3. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    I got a letter from an old friend who wants so badly for me to experience this "more standard" Scientology. It is now 100% standard as LRH intended it she says.
  4. Miscavige doesn't seem crazy enough to actually believe in Hubbard's douchebaggery, he's just intoxicated by the power he has over Hubbard's slaves. Now Tommy Davis on the other hand, I do believe that poor bastard buys in Hubbard's mind control con game, hook, line, and sinker.
  5. Thrak

    Thrak Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yeah if DM bought it he'd be OT 15 which is probably where most scios think he is.
  6. Thrak

    Thrak Gold Meritorious Patron

    If DM is your savior then why hang out here? Maybe it's time you find out who your friends are.
  7. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Is DM a true believer?

    Great question Scooter ... from everything I have ever seen or read about the tiny one I reckon he IS a true believer in the business (of scientology).

    He believes in the $$$.

    He was handed/grabbed a business and it must be difficult (for him) to keep a straight face when he is in public ... he must really want to laugh at all the silly scientologists who appear to hang onto his every word, hence his disdain and disgust towards execs that grovel to him.

    He is having a large lend IMO and it must be a very lonely existence.

  8. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    I never said anything of that sort.
  9. Feral

    Feral Rogue male

    Your response is the strongest point for my argument, well done. You win.

    I agree that Hubbard is at fault on many counts.

    Dm is a turd, but he seems to be 'your' turd. :) You can keep him.
  10. As a teenage in formative years Miscavige saw the more Hubbard abused and tormented his followers the more loyal they became. He saw Hubbard had nothing but disdain for the sheep that followed him. Miscavige is just carrying out Hubbard's legacy as Hubbard would have wanted it. In Hubbard's mind Scientologists were nothing more than sheep who believe anything he told them regardless of how ridiculous it was, they are to be used and nothing more. Hubbard felt Scientologists should get no respect because they deserve no respect. Miscavige is doing the same, he just enjoys tormenting the slaves a little more.
  11. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

  12. HappyGirl

    HappyGirl Gold Meritorious Patron

    Wow, that is sad. How is it better for her? Did you ask her?
  13. scooter

    scooter Gold Meritorious Patron

    But does Lil Davey actually believe that He's applying the Tech or is He just working on keeping the money flowing in - that is my question.

    That you can find "logical" reasons why He's done what He has so as to keep the "Church" open and semi-functioning means nothing.

    I could argue specific points above (like the FN one) but they all are sidetracks to the actual thread topic - is Miscavige a Scientologist or a non-believing opportunist?

    Watching Him walk out on stage for the LRH farewell again recently made me wonder as He was certainly displaying "Missed Withhold Phenomena" that night. And there was a certain disdain for the audience that I could see (maybe just my perceptions or not - I don't know.)

    Why isn't He continuing on the Bridge?

    Why does He travel with a personal chiro? Instead of someone trained in assists.
  14. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    One of the best proofs is that he started the preservation project (the Trementia base). There was absolutely no reason for it except 1) to be faithful to LRH's orders and 2) believing in the worth of LRH's scriptures.

    Because per LRH order OT 9 is released when Orgs are SH size.

    I don't know how having massages or chiro proves or disproves anything.
  15. scooter

    scooter Gold Meritorious Patron

  16. everfree

    everfree Patron Meritorious

    No other reason? Donations were regged for it that, like all other donations to CofS, are not publicly accounted for.

    One could also speculate that large construction projects can be used as a source of kickbacks, as is written about by Hubbard in the Mission Earth series.

    Of course I don't know that DM laundered money that went to him personally in that way, but just setting up a project to "preserve the tech" hardly constitutes "proof" of DM's belief in the worth of Hubbard's "tech".
  17. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious



    In my view it does. He could have thought up any other project, but he bought huge land, built an underground vault and made "HCOBs of steel". Makes completely no sense except when you REALLY want to preserve the tech and follow LRH's orders.
  18. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    I think he does. And I think Hubbard has no bad feelings regarding Miscavige. After all he has faithfully kept the Church alive and expanding (at least by square feet).

    I disagree. There is no good definition by LRH himself about F/Ns and instant reads. You might be unhappy with the GAT definitions, but the Freezone has no better definitions either.

    Yes, he has. But that is not the problem. The problem is the recent shift from "The church has to be protected" to "I have to protect myself, whatever happens to the church".

    I think he expected LRH to return faster. But LRH needed a break.
  19. everfree

    everfree Patron Meritorious

    So... that right there is plenty of reason to start such a project without believing in it - to make money.

    Did you not read Mission Earth? It's all about using construction projects to get kickbacks - ie make more money. Hubbard evidently knew all about it, think maybe DM does as well?

    He had to have an idea he could sell to the rubes, and that he could make money from without it being traceable. Yeah, he actually finished that project. He hadn't yet learned from the Superpower building that not only do the rubes not demand accountability for the money they donate but that he doesn't even have to finish the project and they ~still~ won't complain.

    Now that he learned that, apparently he doesn't even bother any more, as exemplified by all of the empty "ideal org" buildings.
  20. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    That is a really good question. :goodposting: