ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

It's official: Scientology - a religion of deception

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by ccas, May 5, 2010.

  1. ccas

    ccas Patron

    "What is true is what is true for you."

    That's why as a Scientologist, you hear that many times. Auditors have to learn it and teach it.

    As with many things LRH, he didn't invented it himself. He must have found it one of the most useful concepts, adapted it in slightly different forms and published it openly as his own. In internal documents, he has no problem of direct quoting as his own the words of Protagoras (plenty of dox), the father of Sophism.

    Sophism was a sort of philosophy at the times of Socrates. It was completely defeated by Socrates and his followers, including Plato, Aristotle and Xenophon. Now Sophism is official defined as a specious argument used for deceiving someone.

    And that defines Scientology.

    When you are deceived, but you don't see it that way, you will continue to be deceived. There's no use when CNN, CBS, NYT all trying to tell you something. You don't feel it and didn't observed it yourself.

    Another AS-IS ing Scientology. From Tech Dict: AS-IS, when you see something without lies and distortion, it ceases to exist.

    The truth? LRH As-ised your bank account.
    (quotes from WWP).
  2. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

  3. Mystic

    Mystic Crusader

    So-called "as-is" as spewed by the apparition being Lips Hubbard is a farce and just another lump in the many turd-lumps spewed by this artificial entity.

    Truth is an integral part of the Universes.

  4. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    I think he found that quote in Buddha's teachings

    I heard a CD where he says that he got the quote you are refering to from Buddha and says that it fit his own personal philosophy and he decided to make it part of Scientology. He does attribute the phrase to Buddha and not himself. The problem is not where he got it from but the fact that if you try to apply that data in todays' C of S, most likely you will be kicked out and declared suppressive. That's the more important issue in my opinion.
  5. OldAuditor

    OldAuditor Patron with Honors


    That's not an issue, that's a feature!

    David St Lawrence
  6. ccas

    ccas Patron

    I'm almost certain he lied, or in some mental state, that he got it from Buddha. The stone in your hand weights one pound/kilo - that's not even true, not in ten years due to weathering, etc. The philosophy of Buddhism is about looking for absolute and eternal truth, or that is what the monks will say. In total contrast to Sophism.

    Where it comes from is really not the issue (except that he lied, bad role model in contradiction to TWTH). The feature is that he adopted Sophism, which is defined as deception in modern days, or since they were defeated by philosophy.

    Apply what data? LRH started a religion based on deception, whether he knew it or not. If modern day CoS denounces Sophism, they are squirreling. They all lose.

    Long live Socrates.
  7. fisherman

    fisherman Patron with Honors

    Seconded. Long live Socrates! :yes:
  8. Peter Soderqvist

    Peter Soderqvist Patron with Honors

  9. ccas

    ccas Patron

    I brought this up because if you are arguing against an LRH follower, you are arguing against sophism, which is driven out of philosophy 2000 odd years ago. Arguing with scilons are pointless once they resort to sophism. For word clearing, sophism is now defined as a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone. And philosophy is defined as the study of truth.

    All you have to do is to spot sophism. "for you" triggers the alarm bell. And different types of truth is unaltered sophistry. Science is historically a branch of philosophy, something you can measure and put a number on, not a different type of truth. Logic is more than science.

    Once you spot sophism, you bring out the big gun - Socrates.

    Protagoras: Truth is relative. It is only a matter of opinion.

    Socrates: You mean that truth is mere subjective opinion?

    Protagoras: Exactly. What is true for you is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Truth is subjective.

    Socrates: Do you really mean that? That my opinion is true by virtue of its being my opinion?

    Protagoras: Indeed I do.

    Scorates: My opinion is: Truth is absolute, not opinion, and that you, Mr. Protagoras, are absolutely in error. Since this is my opinion, then you must grant that it is true according to your philosophy.

    Protagoras: You are quite correct, Socrates.

    Possible Source:
    Aristotle's CATEGORIES --- "Relatives" (and their necessary CORRELATIVES)
    and there are academic references about "what is true for you"

    The idea is so simple and unique that in Roman, Greek or Chinese, they all translate into the same form.

    The source doesn't matter. If LRH just happens to come across sophistry, he was too stupid not knowing what he was up against.

    ps Calling Scientology applied philosophy, or any philosophy, is redefining philosophy. Scientology is absolutely not philosophy. Socrates said so, before Jesus.
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  10. Lermanet_com

    Lermanet_com Gold Meritorious Patron


    Very Good stuff, thank you for this...
    Arnie Lerma Exposing the CON
    WE COME BACK for our friends and family to get them out of $cientology before they end up here
  11. Lohan2008

    Lohan2008 Gold Meritorious Patron


    'true for you' is from greek philosophy,,, it's not even asian /Buddhist,,,

    In modern usage, sophism, sophist, and sophistry are derogatory terms, due to the influence of many past philosophers.

    A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience's prejudices and emotions rather than logic; e.g., raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is; e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques.

    A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.
  12. GreyWolf

    GreyWolf Gold Meritorious Patron