Keeping Scientology Working and OTIII Evaluations

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Absolutely.




Sadly some critics are (far!) more obsessed with Xenu than any Scio ever was.

Nick

The bottom line is ... if I knew about Xenu, I would have never even read a single page of Dianetics or anything else by Hubbard and would have been better off for it. Xenu is nothing but a punch line to a joke as far as I'm concerned, but the fact that these types of mind control implants are hidden by Hubbard from people is very troubling and are worth exposing to as many people as possible. Hubbard setup Scientology to be a self serving mind control cult and as long as people are aware of this going in, then I have no problem with them spending the rest of their lives in a trance playing with their sanity looking for imaginary spiritual parasites.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I don't generally talk to people about Scientology who know nothing about it. Why? Because the runway is WAY TOO LONG to bring them up to some sort of speed where we could have any sort of meaningful discussion. The world and life of Scientology is so very far isolated away from most people. And it involves a very substantial and complex set of interrelated ideas.

I would never try to convince anybody to get involved in Scientology to try anything. While I came out okay, I can see that some or many others did not. The subject is a confusing mess, and as I have stated clearly elsewhere, Scientology involves a great deal of intentional or uninetneional "mind control".

Now, if you want me to try to explain my EXPERIENCE after some auditing session, I can do THAT, because it has nothing to do with anything other than sensations, perceptions, and feelings. For me, whenever I finished an auditing action, fairly consistently, I would be "blown out", and THOUGHT was largely nowhere to be found. Generally, I wasn't thinking about ANYTHING AT ALL, but more in a sense I was FULLY there, with NO attention on "inner space" at all, and all attention directed OUT, free and easy, and feeling as light as a feather. But, as I said elsewhere, I do consider the possibility that I CREATED THOSE EXPERIENCES because THOSE ARE WHAT I WANTED.

I don't judge the Church of Scientology by my experiences with the tech. If I did that, then I would be an extreme proponent. I judge it in other regards - more from a viewpoint of mind control, deceit, manipulation, and misrepresntation of facts and truth. To me, as someone who was involved for a long time, and who also paid attention on MANY levels of Church activity and behavior, it is a VERY complex picture. Simple one-or-the-other answers don't work on a landscpae like "extended experiences with the Church of Scientology".

So, how didn't I answer you question?

I always have had low blood pressure, and at times it drops so low that when I suddenly stand I will get lightheaded, After strenuous exercise or a long run if I do not hydrate enough sometimes I feel like passing out.

I have passed out numerous times throughout my life, if I had to describe the feeling known as exteriorization in Scientology it is the moment right before I passout, but unlike passing out I'm able to control it and not pass out.

I feel like I'm no longer controlling my body but my senses have been expanded, not necessarily sharper, but expanded and I'm not able to logically process thoughts as sharply.

I'm not sure if Hypnosis messes with the same portion of the brain and same chemicals of the brain as low blood pressure does, but it sure feels the same, in either state I am highly susceptible to suggestions since my mind is not focused of logical reasoning at the moment, and when my blood pressure rises back to normal it is the same feeling as after ending an auditing session.

I believe getting you into this state and giving you suggests is just one of the many mind control mechanisms of Scientology.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

That was a very poor example of a Scientologist. It makes me shudder.

.

Have you ever seen a Scientologist try to handle a critic that didn't make you shudder? The only people I've seen Hubbard's Tech work effectively on are other Sceintologist, since they react to the suggestions and commands as designed.

 

[Vinaire]

There is an exact sequence of action here. Scientologists don't just willy-nilly get told the OT III data and "accept" it. The Church member has ALREADY DONE OT 2, and received some of the "Clearing Courses" data which is already grooving the member in REALLY well to the idea of IMPLANTS from a long time ago. Additionally, the member has been AUDITING this stuff on OT II, and getting some sort of results.

For instance when I did OT 2, I hit a point where it felt like somebody pulled the mental rug out from under me. I was blowing charge constantly, non-stop, as if a waterfall had been turned on, but was running up and away from me! The "sensation" or "experience" was pretty "intense" (however anybody else wants to excuse or justify or explain it away). I had NEVER experienced ANYTHING like that before. The heavy-duty tremendous experience locks most members into whatever they think brought the experience about (applying the OT data).

And I was one who was VERY agnostic about it. "OK, I will try it and see what happens". Lots happened! Okay, what does one say to that?

So, first when anybody sits down in the OT III courseroom and opens the pack, he or she is already quite well "set up" for it by already agreeing with many similar related ideas. The gradient has got them by the balls! They have been romanced and finessed up to that point, bit by little bit. The whole stage has been set. Plus, each member has a great deal invested by now - time, money, energy, friends, and family. One has a tendency at this point rather to "accept" it than not.

Also, the person then AUDITS the material. Again, for most people, STUFF happens,, and that includes people who take a very "cautious" view about it all at first.

NO Church member is supposed to contact the information until he or she has completed OT 2. So, it is UNUSUAL for any Church member to read about Xenu, BTs and all of that stuff before one starts the OT III course. All of this talk about, "how can Scientologists be so stupid to believe all this science fiction horseshit", is a very over-generalized and incorrect view of what actually happens.

It is NOT UNCOMMON for a Church member (the large majority possibly) to have absolutely NO IDEA about and NO BELIEF at all in Xenu and related subject material. For most, surely below the level of OT III, it means absolutely nothing.

Generally, a person might come to "believe" in the "fact" of Xenu and related data AFTER having audited the material and gotten ressults of some sort. But that is only after doing the course and auditing the OT III materials.

I did OT III many years ago, and honestly, I never thought about it much afterwards. I sure didn't gather with other OT III's and have "Xenu" discussions or "Xenu church services". I knew friends who audited it too, and they didn't think about it much. Them and I NEVER walked around thinking, "oh, I believe in mighty Xenu". Honestly, with the way the Church has it comparmentalized, I suspect that MOST members (above OT III) only think about it AT ALL, when they HAVE TO, when they are in session dealing with these things. Otherwise, they live their lives like anybody else, and give it very little thought. It is a small part of the life of any Scientologist, but the die-hard critic seems to just love to trounce on it because it seems to be such an "easy target".

There are many REAL things wrong with the C of S; over-concentrating on OT III stuff takes attention away from REAL abuses and crimes.

It is a gross misconception to have the idea that Scientology church members "believe" in Xenu in the same way that Christians "believe" in God or Satan. The OT III data is subject material for an aspect of Scientology THERAPY. Most people, when they leave therapy of any sort, FORGET ABOUT THE THERAPY until the next time. The analogy is not unlike how most Scientology members relate to the OT III information.

In truth, and this probably appplies to people OT III and above too, very FEW Scientologists ever "convince her or himself that Hubbard's 3rd rate Science fiction is historic fact". Most probably just don't give a shit.

^^^ Excellent post!

.

 

[Vinaire]

Vinaire, the guy with over 8000 posts, is accusing me of only wanting people to think like I do?

That's funny, you seem to be the one working pretty hard to convince ESMbers of something. But you're predictable; scilons accuse others of what they are guilty of.

People that talk to themselves on the OT levels, yet think they are having conversations with something else, including invisible space ghosts, are simply fucked in the head.

To put it nicely, schizophrenic.

Well that sucked!

.

 

[FinallyFree]

Have you ever seen a Scientologist try to handle a critic that didn't make you shudder? The only people I've seen Hubbard's Tech work effectively on are other Sceintologist, since they react to the suggestions and commands as designed.

Actually (and I am soooo not taking sides here but...) this is a very good point IMHO.

 

[Vinaire]

I do not understand why so many EX-scientologists around ESMB, have such a problem with protesters disclosing the Xenu/BT story to staff/public as they enter/exit an org.

These people really hate it -- they think they know what others shouldn't hear about. I'm sure they're being sincere about it, but if it really is their objective to get people out, I just don't understand why they don't want protesters revealing scientology's most embarrassing issues; Xenu/BTs.

During my short stay on staff 30 years ago, one day an irate disconnected family member yelled out about, 'Xenu'. I could hear this guys deep voice 50 feet away. I didn't have a clue what he was talking about, and I'm not sure he did either. But I was still pretty fresh meat at the time -- and if somebody would have spelled out 'Xenu/BTs' in 25 words or less, as I walked by -- I would like to think I'd have asked myself, "What in the h*** am I hanging around the scientology space cult for?"

It just seems to me that continually shoving Xenu/BTs up scientology's a**, ought to be the most effective thing that could be done, to get people to blow. Just print out the Wikipedia Xenu page, then stand in front of an org, and read it over and over -- so that staff and public alike can hear you.

I'd sincerely like to know why so many ESMB'ers don't want Xenu disclosed. Is it because they're freezoners, and they want to perpetuate the Xenu/BT myth? Would somebody please explain it.

You better examine your premise here.

.

 

[nexus100]

I don't generally talk to people about Scientology who know nothing about it. Why? Because the runway is WAY TOO LONG to bring them up to some sort of speed where we could have any sort of meaningful discussion. The world and life of Scientology is so very far isolated away from most people. And it involves a very substantial and complex set of interrelated ideas.

I would never try to convince anybody to get involved in Scientology to try anything. While I came out okay, I can see that some or many others did not. The subject is a confusing mess, and as I have stated clearly elsewhere, Scientology involves a great deal of intentional or uninetneional "mind control".

Now, if you want me to try to explain my EXPERIENCE after some auditing session, I can do THAT, because it has nothing to do with anything other than sensations, perceptions, and feelings. For me, whenever I finished an auditing action, fairly consistently, I would be "blown out", and THOUGHT was largely nowhere to be found. Generally, I wasn't thinking about ANYTHING AT ALL, but more in a sense I was FULLY there, with NO attention on "inner space" at all, and all attention directed OUT, free and easy, and feeling as light as a feather. But, as I said elsewhere, I do consider the possibility that I CREATED THOSE EXPERIENCES because THOSE ARE WHAT I WANTED.

I don't judge the Church of Scientology by my experiences with the tech. If I did that, then I would be an extreme proponent. I judge it in other regards - more from a viewpoint of mind control, deceit, manipulation, and misrepresntation of facts and truth. To me, as someone who was involved for a long time, and who also paid attention on MANY levels of Church activity and behavior, it is a VERY complex picture. Simple one-or-the-other answers don't work on a landscpae like "extended experiences with the Church of Scientology".

So, how didn't I answer you question?

I GET IT! It's the Skipper and his li'l buddy! Where's your li'l buddy, Skipper? Here's your theme song to make you feel at home!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2XfQo1YguY&feature=related

 

[Vinaire]

The bottom line is ... if I knew about Xenu, I would have never even read a single page of Dianetics or anything else by Hubbard and would have been better off for it. Xenu is nothing but a punch line to a joke as far as I'm concerned, but the fact that these types of mind control implants are hidden by Hubbard from people is very troubling and are worth exposing to as many people as possible. Hubbard setup Scientology to be a self serving mind control cult and as long as people are aware of this going in, then I have no problem with them spending the rest of their lives in a trance playing with their sanity looking for imaginary spiritual parasites.

Alright! So, then?

.

 

[Vinaire]

I always have had low blood pressure, and at times it drops so low that when I suddenly stand I will get lightheaded, After strenuous exercise or a long run if I do not hydrate enough sometimes I feel like passing out.

I have passed out numerous times throughout my life, if I had to describe the feeling known as exteriorization in Scientology it is the moment right before I passout, but unlike passing out I'm able to control it and not pass out.

I feel like I'm no longer controlling my body but my senses have been expanded, not necessarily sharper, but expanded and I'm not able to logically process thoughts as sharply.

I'm not sure if Hypnosis messes with the same portion of the brain and same chemicals of the brain as low blood pressure does, but it sure feels the same, in either state I am highly susceptible to suggestions since my mind is not focused of logical reasoning at the moment, and when my blood pressure rises back to normal it is the same feeling as after ending an auditing session.

I believe getting you into this state and giving you suggests is just one of the many mind control mechanisms of Scientology.

^^^ Good observation.

.

 

[Carmel]

I GET IT! It's the Skipper and his li'l buddy! Where's your li'l buddy, Skipper? Here's your theme song to make you feel at home!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2XfQo1YguY&feature=related

 

[Vinaire]

Discussion should be about exchange of data from different viewpoints so self-determined learning can take place.

The following is not discussion:

(a) Attacking the other viewpoint by loudly speculating about its intentions.

(b) Trying to knock down the other viewpoint by whatever means.

(c) Attempt to prove one's viewpoint in order to forcefully influence the other viewpoint.

(d) Attempt at invalidation in order to forcefully subdue the other viewpoint.

(e) Forcing one's viewpoing on another by "repetitive questioning."

There are many more points that do not belong in a discussion, but the above will do for now.

.

 

[nexus100]

Discussion should be about exchange of data from different viewpoints so self-determined learning can take place.

The following is not discussion:

(a) Attacking the other viewpoint by loudly speculating about its intentions.

(b) Trying to knock down the other viewpoint by whatever means.

(c) Attempt to prove one's viewpoint in order to forcefully influence the other viewpoint.

(d) Attempt at invalidation in order to forcefully subdue the other viewpoint.

(e) Forcing one's viewpoing on another by "repetitive questioning."

There are many more points that do not belong in a discussion, but the above will do for now.

.

You know what the only importance of a viewpoint is, Vin?
That it is really a viewpoint. That it isn't an invented acquiescence to an idea tangential to what is being said. If you want to buy into every word spoken to you as gospel despite all general reference that is up to you. In my opinion these characters are as geniune as those in the video above.

I like and trust you Vin and would go some distance to honor your interests. That is the truth. I wonder if you are seeing this equation correctly.

 

[Carmel]

Discussion should be about exchange of data from different viewpoints so self-determined learning can take place.

The following is not discussion:

(a) Attacking the other viewpoint by loudly speculating about its intentions.

(b) Trying to knock down the other viewpoint by whatever means.

(c) Attempt to prove one's viewpoint in order to forcefully influence the other viewpoint.

(d) Attempt at invalidation in order to forcefully subdue the other viewpoint.

(e) Forcing one's viewpoing on another by "repetitive questioning."

There are many more points that do not belong in a discussion, but the above will do for now.

.

You hit the nail on the head, Vinnie, with your first sentence - "exchange of data from different viewpoints" - I personally don't see that "exchange" occurring, and that is my objection.

 

[Panda Termint]

Discussion should be about exchange of data from different viewpoints so self-determined learning can take place.

The following is not discussion:

(a) Attacking the other viewpoint by loudly speculating about its intentions.

(b) Trying to knock down the other viewpoint by whatever means.

(c) Attempt to prove one's viewpoint in order to forcefully influence the other viewpoint.

(d) Attempt at invalidation in order to forcefully subdue the other viewpoint.

(e) Forcing one's viewpoing on another by "repetitive questioning."

There are many more points that do not belong in a discussion, but the above will do for now.

And once again we see a whole thread go down in flames! Ad hom and vitriol being the order of the day.

Vin, I agree with your general take on what's cooking here but would like to point out one small disagreement.

Your comment about Ray (the guy in the video) being a "poor example of a scientologist" (or whatever you said) is just a tad too general. I don't like the way some critics use this video.

I've known Ray for many years and, in truth, he's a lovely guy; a kind helpful soul who'll do anything to help others. He does whatever the CofS asks of him because he thinks this will help save the Planet. He's used as cannon-fodder on many occasions but always does what he does because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

Like most active scn'ists he's been fed a litany of lies about Anon and, being the cooperative and trusting soul that he is, has accepted these lies told to him by his "betters".

He's tired, drawn, overworked and sitting in a huge loss but still manages to put himself on the line for his "religion". I regret that I haven't been able to free him from scientology's clutches but I won't stop trying.

 

[Vinaire]

My opinion is as follows:

One should simply present one's data about a subject as honestly as possible, and be done with it. It is "attachment" to expect anything favorable or unfavorable in return. Be a detached observer.

If something comes back that you find interesting, then simply repeat the above cycle.

Now what is this hounding others all about?
What is this wanting to look good all about?
What is all this ego doing in a discussion?

.

 

[Vinaire]

And once again we see a whole thread go down in flames! Ad hom and vitriol being the order of the day.

Vin, I agree with your general take on what's cooking here but would like to point out one small disagreement.

Your comment about Ray (the guy in the video) being a "poor example of a scientologist" (or whatever you said) is just a tad too general. I don't like the way some critics use this video.

I've known Ray for many years and, in truth, he's a lovely guy; a kind helpful soul who'll do anything to help others. He does whatever the CofS asks of him because he thinks this will help save the Planet. He's used as cannon-fodder on many occasions but always does what he does because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

Like most active scn'ists he's been fed a litany of lies about Anon and, being the cooperative and trusting soul that he is, has accepted these lies told to him by his "betters".

He's tired, drawn, overworked and sitting in a huge loss but still manages to put himself on the line for his "religion". I regret that I haven't been able to free him from scientology's clutches but I won't stop trying.

My thinking is this:

It may be that Ray is a nice lovely guy, but he was unable to hold his position in this video.

A Scientologist is supposed to hold his position in space. Otherwise, what is Scientology about?

PTSness is simply an excuse for the failure of Scientology.

.

 

[nexus100]

My opinion is as follows:

One should simply present one's data about a subject as honestly as possible, and be done with it. It is "attachment" to expect anything favorable or unfavorable in return. Be a detached observer.

If something comes back that you find interesting, then simply repeat the above cycle.

Now what is this hounding others all about?
What is this wanting to look good all about?
What is ego doing in a discussion?

.

Honesty is the key word here. "One can smile and smile and be a villain" from Hamlet, by William Shakespeare. One can appear to be presenting any opinion and be doing something else. I am responding to what is really being said instead of to the appearance.

No one without ego operates on this board. But let's specify. Ego is one's reality including opinions, ideas, and judgments of others. In short, it is prejudice. There is also accurate interpretation of what one sees, or more accurate, at least. What is accurate is more honest, no?
Screw wanting to look good, Vin. For god's sake read the posts.

 

[Vinaire]

You know what the only importance of a viewpoint is, Vin?
That it is really a viewpoint. That it isn't an invented acquiescence to an idea tangential to what is being said. If you want to buy into every word spoken to you as gospel despite all general reference that is up to you. In my opinion these characters are as geniune as those in the video above.

I like and trust you Vin and would go some distance to honor your interests. That is the truth. I wonder if you are seeing this equation correctly.

It is all about being able to hold one's position in space.

That is best done with honesty and integrity, and not with a blabbering or blistering ego.

.

 

[nexus100]

It is all about being able to hold one's position in space.

That is best done with honesty and integrity, and not with a blabbering or blistering ego.

Okay, Vin, have it your way.