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Discussion in 'Leaving Scientology' started by svonhatten, Jun 27, 2007.

  1. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Yeah, that public disavowal thing is STUPID!!!

    I think that if you got that from Barbara Schwarz, that she was quoting from my webbed declare. She has done so many many times after following me around the newsgroup whining for me to post it.

    She loves to post that and some other cut n paste stuff...

    But it's good that this kind of nonsense is posted. People can see how insane it all is...
  2. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill


    Boy, that's shocking. Really nuts.

    I am glad you post so much good informational stuff.
  3. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    That would be correct.

    That would also be correct.

    Oh my gosh! That's also correct when you look at it like that. :)
  4. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    he he... :thanks:

    Ralph Stanley is my absolute favorite.
  5. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    My World Turns Upside Down

    Note: This is sensitive information (yes, I did consult with Krystal before posting), however, this can better help you understand why I was planning on going back to the cof$. I felt very discouraged, but somewhat hopeful until that BBC thing. I'll get back to that some posts from now.

    While I managed to forge a friendship with both Barbara Schwarz and some of the critics of Scientology, no sooner had things begin to start flattening out that something would happen that would change my entire relationship perspective.

    Little to my knowledge, Krystal had been pregnant since early February. It was April now, and she confessed to being pregnant over the phone one day.

    “Hello?” I answered, as I picked up the phone. I expected to hear yelling.
    “Hi. Stephen?” It was Krystal's mother. “You'd better get down here immediately. Krystal really needs to see you, I think.” My mind went into red alert mode. Even though we had broken up again only a week before, I still cared for her and what would happen to her. We had just began talking again about the baby and dreams that we had in raising him/her.
    “On my way.”

    I didn't manage to get a bus out of Santa Maria until the next day, but it was early. Krystal's mother was there to greet me as I got off.

    “You need to come with me immediately,” she said. By now I was scared out of my mind. I felt like I was walking in a drama movie or something, but didn't know what was going on. When we got in the car and started moving she started to explain everything. Earlier that day when she called, Krystal had a miscarriage. It was almost as if I didn't believe it. I refused to believe it.

    “What are you talking about?” was the best that could leave my mouth. I was shocked. Krystal? My Krystal? I couldn't believe it. “How?” I asked. “How could this happen?” This was especially disturbing to me. I've heard of miscarriages happening, I had no idea what to do. I didn't understand it all either. The unknown had frightened me.

    When we finally pulled up to the house, Krystal's mom was very supportive. She told me to take a few deep breaths before going in. We waited a few minutes for the two of us to calm down. “The idea is to keep Krystal calm about the whole thing,” I remembered her saying. “Don't rouse things up, just listen to her and help her in anyway you can. I'm sure you're going through some difficulty, but she needs the importance right now.”

    “Okay. Here goes nothing,” I said to myself. We both walked in.

    I immediately walked upstairs to her room. She was laying in her pink and red bedsheets. She hadn't gotten out of bed yet. There was a rocking chair in one of the corners of her room that I sat down on. Ten or fifteen minutes passed as I just looked and stared. I began rocking back and forth on the chair. I could hear the creaking of the age old wood moving against the floor. Krystal started stirring. “Sorry dear, didn't mean to wake you,” I said quietly. It was 10 in the morning by now, and the light was shining through the drapes onto her bed and hardwood floors. I stood up to open the window. Outside you could hear the town bustling. Cars honking. The water from the beach crashing against the shore. She looked up at me as she sat up in her bed. As our eyes met, hers swelled with tears, as if recalling a terrible nightmare she had just had.

    “I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.” She seemed to apologize for losing the baby. I apologized as well as if to show that things were still alright between us. “Everything will get better from here,” I said. She looked down at her hands as if wondering what to do with them. I sat down on the bed next to her looking out at the window. I could see her sobbing quietly from the corner of my eye. I looked back at her. Tears moving down her cheek, I moved closer to her. She wrapped her arms around me. As we leaned up against the pillows, she began to calm down now. I tried to keep my cool and listen to what she was going through. We stayed there for what seemed like hours.

    Finally her mother sprang in to see if things were okay. She was back momentarily with some food on a tray. Krystal refused to eat just yet. Tears began to swell up in her eyes again. After a another hour or so she finally felt up to eating. It was about 4PM when we were both up and about. While she was showering, I started making her bed. I saw the picture of Krystal and I with her parents. The glass was cracked in the middle where she had thrown it at the wall earlier. Still, I remembered the memories of spending so much time together. By about 5, she was dressed.

    “Let's go for a nice walk on the beach,” I said. She agreed. I know it would help her get through all that she was going through. After crying on each others' shoulders, the beach was a nice break. A couple people were walking their dogs, children where in groups playing with their parents or friends or brothers and sisters. A couple of older women had a bucket picking up seashells, and the sun was beginning to set. Krystal grabbed my hand and we walked down to the wharf and back. By the time we got back, things were better. She smiled a couple times as if trying to forget what had happened.

    When we got back to the house, Krystal's dad had just arrived. Her mom had dinner all prepared for the family. Her dad took her into the living room and told her he was supporting her and anything she needed he would be happy to help out in anyway. Her dad was very nice when it came to the two of us. He was happy to see when we got back together after all that had happened.

    I still remember the silence at that table. Krystal was getting teary-eyed when her mother served the clam chowder. “This is the soup of where I'm from,” she'd always say.

    “Honey, I think they've heard that enough already,” Jim, Krystal's dad, said with a sheepish grin. Delores just looked back and made a 'well aren't you so smart' look. I couldn't blame them for trying to keep the conversation positive. Then all eyes seemed to turn towards Krystal. With the soup in front of her, she just stared down at it. I just looked at her and she glanced up at me.

    “How's everyone doing?” her brother just walked in. Krystal looked at her brother, David, then got up and rushed upstairs to her room.

    “Hey Sis! What's...” Krystal walked away before David could even finish his sentence. Jim and I seemed to stand up simultaneously. “I'll talk to her,” I said.

    “No. You've spent the day with her. I'll talk with her.” Jim said walking toward the stairs. His steps were quickened as he passed David.

    “What's going on?” David asked with a very blank and confused look on his face.
    “Sit down dear, I made some of my famous clam chowder.” David looked over at me.
    “Does this have anything to do with you?”
    “Sort of,” I said. My head seemed to hang as if in shame.
    “Dear, your sister just had,” she started whispering, “a miscarriage.” David looked at me, then his mother. I shriveled up in shame and took a few sips of the soup. “Your sister's boyfriend here has been over the entire day trying to get your sister's mood up.”

    The attention moved as Jim walked into the room. “You're coming with me, young man,” he pointed to me. While I always like Krystal's dad, I always seemed to be scared of him one way or another. He had long dark hair slick back with a large neck, white shirt, black pants and a black jacket. His wrinkles showed quite well for a 40 year old. He had a white patch of hair off on the right side of his dew.

    “She won't talk to me much, and you seemed to cheer her up before, so get in there and make her happy.” I looked up at him. He must've been 3-5 inches taller than me; well over 6 foot.

    “Yes sir.” I felt my knees buckling.

    Her room seemed a lot darker than when I first had arrived. She was sitting on the side of her bed facing the window bawling. I felt my body lunge towards her to comfort her. We stayed together until the dawn of the next day.

    I don't remember all that happened that night, other than it was emotional for the both of us. We hadn't felt that connected in such a long time. I vowed as I was lying in bed with her, that I would always be there to help her through the storm, however big that storm might be. We prayed before departing where I went home to be greeted by my empty house. Krystal kept re-occurring in my thoughts, as if gnawing on my brain; driving me insane. I still faced the confusion, but I knew in the back of my mind that things would always move on to get better than they were previously.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2007
  6. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    The POISONOUS Middle Ground

    It wasn't long before I grew discontent with what I had knowledge of and began searching for more information. I continually heard from Tory Christman and a few other critics that I was to continue reading. Even they are still reading and learning. By now, both the Santa Barbara Org and Salt Lake City Mission knew I was posting as “Stephen Von Hatten.” I was fairly sure of that to begin with. OSA monitors the group and keeps tabs on all of the individual posters so as to use any slight controversial statements that they can take out of context and use against you. It happened to David Tourezky, and I'm sure he wasn't the only victim of that tactic.

    It was a normal day, or seemingly normal. I just got home from class that day and it was a Monday. There was a letter awaiting, and I'll show what it says here:

    Scientology Mission of Salt Lake
    353 East 400 South
    Salt Lake City, Utah 84111
    April 28, 2007

    What Is Scientology?


    It is much easier to say what Scientology isn't than what it is. It
    isn't anything like psychology, psychiatry, or any other mental
    practice. It isn't like any other religion or like any Eastern
    practices. It isn't like anything you would ever study in a philosophy
    class. And it most definitely isn't like anything you would read about
    in the National Slanderer.

    When people encounter something new, they like to know what it is
    similar to, in order to get at least a rough idea of what it is all
    about. But nothing comparable to Scientology has ever existed before,
    so no comparison would be valid.

    Probably the best way to begin to understand a subject that embraces
    every aspect of life is to realize that it is basically a way of self
    improvement. People who look into Scientology normally have some
    condition or situation in life that they would like to improve in some
    way. Maybe they have communication problems or study difficulties,
    marital problems or difficulty in relating to other people. Many
    people find that life is a constant series of ups and downs. Whatever
    the person's problem is, Scientology can help him with it.

    Once they have taken a life improvement course and handled what is
    ruining their life they realize that it is possible for them to become
    even more able, and eventually it becomes real to them that there is
    no limit to how able they can become. When that happens, they have
    become a Scientologist.

    And that's what Scientology is all about.


    (Name Withheld), Field Staff Member

    Fear seemed to grab my heart. I felt as if it were sinking. That feeling of shame came over me. I believe it was a few days before, or few days afterward that I had taken a look at what is known as “Bernie's site.”

    To me, these and that letter seemed to be the defining moment for the time. I was leaving the church and would refuse to join the critic side. The anti-cult cultic movement is... well... a paradox. I posted the following the day I received the letter:

    I may have received some heat now and again, but I did fight out the “critics are cultic” argument for a while. Unfortunately, I had no real idea what I was talking about. With everything a paradox, I eventually had to pick sides. The middle ground would only lean one way.

    ===Flash Forward===
    I got home in California today only to be greeted by one single letter. It states:

    Church of Scientology Mission of Salt Lake
    353 East 400 South
    Salt Lake City, UT 84111


    I wanted to share a quote with you that I think you might like and get something from it.

    "No man is happy without a goal, and no man can be happy without faith in his own ability to reach that goal."
    L. Ron Hubbard

    What goal are you trying to achieve?


    (Name Withheld)
    Hubbard Executive Secretary
    Salt Lake City Mission

    Weird, huh? Makes me wonder if they know that I'm even posting here or any other critic forums.

    ===End of Flash Forward===
  7. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Very interesting...are you and Krystal ok now?
  8. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    All is well... at least... as much as anyone would consider "normal."
  9. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    BBC Changes My Life

    I must say, when the BBC Documentary came out, I was extremely pleased. That is, until I saw the Church's response to it. I couldn't believe the harassment that appeared from John Sweeney. Come to find out, Sweeney was just trying to get their perspective on the idea that critics claimed that Scientology was a cult. And quite honestly, I agreed with the Scientology documentary on Sweeney and the BBC than I did on Scientology. I can still remember the feelings of anger I felt against John Sweeney. This was my Scientology programming left over from my five years of really reading about and taking part in Scientology. And besides, Scientology worked, right? While I announced earlier that month that I was planning on leaving ARS and any other critic forums, I came back as “Stephen Von Hatten.”

    Let me back up a little here because I've skipped over some things.
  10. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    Suicide Beckoning

    I couldn't tell you how many nights I had stayed up for several hours thinking of just ending my life. I felt discouraged at every turn. It seemed like I had only been happy while in the Church of Scientology. I'm sure, by now, that I was sending conflicting messages to my family and friends. One minute I was defending Scientology and the next I was criticizing it into the ground. Everything seemed so incomplete and no answers were to be had. Everything seemed like empty lies on both sides. I felt as though truth had died long ago, and so I went back to the thing I knew best.
  11. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    Meeting the REAL Devils

    Last edited: Jul 19, 2007
  12. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    I decided to go back to the Church of Scientology. I decided that after only seeing a VERY small portion of the big picture, and that was even taken out of context as I would later find out. I talked with Krystal about how the Church of Scientology could help her out (the WORST thing I ever did), gave her my copy of Dianetics and a couple other Internet links that I thought would help her. If I was going back to this church, I was most certainly going to take my lovely girlfriend with me. :) I caught myself day-dreaming about the wonderful life we would have together more than once.

    I then e-mailed the public relations e-mail address for Scientology and none other than a person claiming to be “Joe Kimperson” appeared in my inbox the very next day. Yes... the VERY SAME Joe Kimperson that had previously tried to "handle" me in March when I proclaimed that I was leaving. I have to say, choosing him to handle my situation wasn't necessarily the best thing. I still felt a little edgy, but I swallowed that and moved on with things.

    He asked if I was truly serious and what my thoughts on Scientology were. He asked if I regretted some things which I did at the time. We then shook hands (via Internet) and moved onto an amends project. I felt like a willing soul until I saw what I had to do. The following were required:

    -Turn over any e-mails to him concerning personal information that I had received from critics.

    - Begin causing noise and distractions on critical forums such as Topix and ARS.

    - Targets were to include: Tory Christman & Arnie Lerma, specifically. Others could be added, as well.

    - Remain hostile, and don't give any personal information out if I wasn't posting as "Stephen Von Hatten." “Keep under the radar” so to speak.

    - Don't answer questions unless they are with insults or questions to distract from the topic. Insults also would distract from the topic, as critics would talk about insults more than they would the actual original posts.​

    I reluctantly accepted wanting to get in good graces with a church that was to soon change my life. It's a difficult feeling trying to explain how I would justify all of that behavior. It may seem cold and terrible now, but at the time, I don't know... it was somehow okay. The Internet didn't seem real at all. As far as I was concerned, everyone else on the other end were robots. Again, I know that sounds really terrible, and I suppose it should. Ironically, this would only drive me to be even further emptiness (especially actually TALKING with Tory and a few others). It became clear to me that I wasn't accomplishing anything; only hostility from critics, and warm “congratulations” from Barbara Schwarz and her “reality by agreement” bots on ARS.

    I posted on Topix as "Scientology Spammer" starting out defending the middle ground idea that I had been reading about on Bernie's site. It didn't take long for me to move down towards insults and childish accusations of different individuals both on ARS and Topix. I began accusing people of being trolls or OSA bots that had yet to be uncovered. Or “this person was a homosexual, fat bald man,” or “this woman was a lesbian,” etc. I finally came down to impersonating several individuals (Tory, Arnie, and Polly), each with similar messages posted claiming “I'm a bigot.” Of course, not “Scientology Spammer,” but the person I was impersonating.

    I said that Tory was going back to the Church of Scientology and wanted nothing further to do with critics. All that I did there was wrong. I made very wrong judgments about these people. I always did like Tory, and I tried to keep it as unbelievable as possible so as to not try to hurt her reputation too much. Still, the things that I said were completely wrong and, looking back on it now, inexcusable.

    As for Arnie Lerma, right before I left the critic side I had been talking with Claire who posts as “Ball of Fluff” or simply “Fluffy.” She was very upset with the idea that Arnie was labeling her as OSA. Not knowing Arnie, I sided with Claire, which made it easier for me to post what I did about Arnie Lerma on the project. This doesn't mean that Claire approved or was involved in any way with what I had said about Arnie... it just helped to have a motivation.

    To sum up this little lesson, words DO affect people, and they will turn out affecting YOU more than the person you are trying to hurt. I speak from experience. Lesson well learned.
  13. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    OSA's Tasks for Internet Scientologists?

    This is very interesting SVH:

    These orders were given to you by a "Joe Kimperson".

    Do you know where Joe Kimperson works? What org?

    Or where he is located?

    Is he a Sea Org Member?
  14. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    Here's the actual message that was sent to me:

    He never identified himself fully and I never asked. I had felt so guilty posting all that stuff that I did (which I now realize is not something that is right) that I just wanted to get that over with. Plus, I think if I asked, he wouldn't have wanted anything to do with me. I don't think he trusted me.

    The e-mail above was right before I "left" ARS and not the first e-mail I received from him, either. That was the second or third, I believe.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2007
  15. svonhatten

    svonhatten Patron with Honors

    Scientology Spammer

    The following takes place mostly on:

    I posted on Topix as Scientology Spammer starting out defending the "middle ground idea" that I had been reading about on Bernie's site. It didn't take long for me to move down towards insults and childish accusations of different individuals both on ARS and Topix, but mostly on Topix. I began accusing people of being trolls or OSA bots that had yet to be uncovered. Or “this person was a homosexual, fat bald man,” or “this woman was a lesbian,” etc. I finally came down to impersonating several individuals, each with similar messages posted claiming “I'm a bigot.” Of course, not “Scientology Spammer,” but the person I was impersonating. I said that Tory was going back to the Church of Scientology and wanted nothing further to do with critics. All that I did there was wrong. I made very wrong judgments about these people. I always did like Tory, and I tried to keep it as unbelievable as possible so as to not try to hurt her reputation too much. Still, the things that I said were completely wrong and, looking back on it now, inexcusable.

    An example of my behavior:

    To sum up this little lesson, words DO affect people, and they will turn out affecting YOU more than the person you are trying to hurt. Lesson well learned.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2007
  16. Tanstaafl

    Tanstaafl Crusader

    These OSA guys are stupid. Fighting begets fighting.

    When there's a demo outside an org the staff ought to take out tea and biscuits to the protestors and offer assists to those with sore feet! Seriously. :)

    It takes two to tango.

    All the public sees is confusion and entheta and will associate these with both parties. The majority will then stay away. Criticism needs to be handled with insouciance.

    Glad to see you're clear of this bullshit now, SVH.
  17. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    OSA Tactics on SVH

    That is very well done, Steve. It's good for everyone to see the tactics these guys employ.

    Nothing comes up in Kristi's database for Joe Kimperson.

    Did you forward the emails Joe asked for "for analysis"?

    You don't have to say on here if you don't want to, but have you told the people whose emails you might have forwarded so they know?

    Were there any other ways they tried to pump you for info, or things they wanted you to do for them?
  18. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Not sure I understand your comments, Steve, about your conversation about me with Arnie.

    It's not a logical criterion- did I write anything that helped you decide to leave. That doesn't make a person OSA.

    Membership in CofS and affiliation with Dept 20 makes a person OSA.

    I have posted my expel/declare. I have posted my real name and location and profession.

    I've gone to FZ meetings, even arranged them, and to critic's parties as well as have had friendships with critics,having them over to my own home, etc.

    If I were OSA all those FZers and critics would have been betrayed.

    I don't have to get people out of or into anything to not be OSA. I have no such affiliation, and I never did. Simple as that.

    Those who say I have such an affiliation are wrong at best, lying at worst.

    On a thread in ARS a couple years ago, Arnie posted that I was still in CofS. And "Ida" concurred. That was stupid. Plain and simple. He also got me removed from Factnet's board. It's fine, it's not my board, they should have whomever they want on there, but fact is, this person is going around not only saying something about me that is not true, but that is a despicable thing to be (it would mean I lied to all those people I had at my house and met and emailed and posted with. I did not.) but is telling other people to ban me. I also strongly believe that he sicced that other guy on me on OCMB a few months ago. I won't mention his name since evidently it's not ok for me to ever bring those things up. So I won't bother with that.

    Be pals with whomever you wish, it's not an either/or situation. This isn't the 5th grade when this one little girl told me I could not be friends with both her and some other little girl at the same time. That's for ten year olds. So communicate with and be pals with whomever you like.

    OSA is not a personification of critics who aren't helping others enough. OSA is Dept 20 in CofS or, more loosely, people who help OSA, PIs and such.

    I'm not buying into this idea that I have to create certain effects on other people- people who have free will- in order to not be considered OSA.

    I could post a whole list of people who are critics who aren't posting to try to get people in or out of Scn. They aren't OSA, either.

    So, no, that makes no sense. I will absolutely NOT put up with this implication that I'm not doing enough, I'm not creating the right effects on people, and, by extension, I'm some sort of operative.

    The next time someone tries that bullshit, try asking me what I am interested in accomplishing, why I post, rather than drawing a conclusion.

    I am doing enough. I am doing what I want to do. If someone wants pickets, then go on one.If someone wants leaflets, then establish a communication line with someone who creates them and go out and put them on cars and hand them to people. If someone wants to be an evangelical critic, then, by all means, be one.

    But don't expect me to say that criterion applies to me, it doesn't.

    It's not a matter of being upset with someone for calling me OSA. It's a matter of my "being upset" because someone is saying things about my affiliation that simply aren't true.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2007
  19. Vinaire

    Vinaire Sponsor

    The worst enemy of CoS is a lack of results.

    There seem to be more critics of CoS because of a lack of expected results rather than because of suppressives.

  20. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    Right, V, and they aren't OSA, either.