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Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Clay Pigeon, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Writing on the topic is voluminous and endless and the best of it immortal. None have wreathed the subject in words wiser than these of the Apostle Paul:

    (from The King James, when "charity" was the languages highest concept of "love")

    Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not charity I am become as sounding like brass or a tinkling cymbal and though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith so I could remove mountains and have not charity I am nothing, and though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor and though I give my body to be burned and have not charity it profit me nothing.
    Charity suffereth long and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, does nnot behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth but where there be prophecies they will fall; whether the be tongues they shall cease; whether there be knowledge it shall vanish away.
    For we know now in part and we propheciy in part but when that which is perfect shall come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child but when I became a man I put away childish things. For now we see as through a glass darkly but then face to face; now I know in part but then shall shall I know even as also I am known.
    And now abideth faith, hope and charity, these three but the greatest of these is charity.

    Chapter 13 of the first Epistle to the church at Corinth
    Teanntás likes this.
  2. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    "if love is the answer would you please rephrase the question."

    Dorothy Parker
  3. Teanntás

    Teanntás Silver Meritorious Patron

    Clay Pigeon likes this.
  4. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    The Perils of Pauline Christianity

  5. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    That is not the King James Bible translation. That version uses the word “love”.
  6. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Do you mean the New King James Bible (NKJV)?

    The older 1769 KJV revision (which is old formal English) uses "charity".
    IMO, there is no significant difference, in meaning, between the two.

    Off topic comment, the original 1611 KJV has some funny translation errors. :D
  7. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    Do you mean the letters used?
  8. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Maybe they were printing errors. But it is still funny!
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  9. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    That's the problem with those books, including the whole bible

    Multiple translations changing the meaning and also "revisions" to change or get rid of embarrassing stuff.
    As en example the 2nd Constantinople council - 553 decided to remove all references to reincarnation, in the bible, and transform it into "resurection"

    This was purposely done to control Christians populations in the belief of one earth life , and then, depending if one obeys to the "scriptures" and the Christian Church, he will either reborn in hell or heaven aside Christ. Very conveniant in using fear to control the Christian flock.​

    When I want to talk with Jesus, I don't find him in other people words or those of fanatic liars preachers..I find him within me...

    Same goes for has no description. When you love you know you love
    And such true love makes you great , strong , and urge you to embrace those you love with care and gentleness.

    When people love you they have such a way to look at you, to smile and to embrace you as a whole, without any condition.

    I am very lucky and blessed since I have known love all my life and true caring from other people.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  10. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    The King James Bible I know was never called the “New King James” Bible, so that would be something else. Whatever version this is, or whether it is an Internet fabrication, substituting the word Charity for the word Love doesn’t work very well in this quotation.
  11. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Yes, the Catholic Church omitted a number of books from the Bible that weren’t consistent with its teachings. Some have been found since, but most were destroyed.

    The Catholic Church certainly did remove any possible references to reincarnation, but I don’t think it was as simple as a straight substitution for the word Resurrection. That doesn’t work, either. The word God was substituted for Jehovah (The JW’s make a big point of this) and the result of that is a Christian version of the Trinity where Jesus is not an incarnation, but God the Son, and the Holy Spirit is an aspect of God to make the Trinity . All very confusing.
  12. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    No, my version was always called the King James Version. The New King James version is something else. Never heard of it before.

    How do you know the original KJ translation said Charity? Link please? Was the 1769 version a misprint? It’s too awkward here. Works in some phrases but not others.
  13. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    No JS, it's the other way around, "love" was substituted for the original "charity", no vice versa.

    Charity, until early to mid 20th century was the english word for the highest most spiritual form of love; e.g. while "I love ice cream" makes perfect sense "I have charity for ice cream" doesn't.

    "Casey at the Bat" from 1888 and still a familiar poem gives it in the now virtually archaic usage in the tenth verse:

    With a smile of Christian charity
    Great Casey's visage shone
    He stilled the rising tumult
    He bade the game go on
    He signalled to the pitcher
    And once more the dun sphere flew
    But Casey still ignored it
    And the umpire called "Strike two"
  14. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    CP, since the Bible wasn’t written in English to begin with, some words don’t translate perfectly. There are words with nuances in different languages. Some words are more narrow or broad when translated. Charity works well as a substitute for some of your quote, but not all. Its modern definition is narrow. It’s not in any King James Version I’ve ever seen, either. Casey at bat was being charitable, not loving. The word fits perfectly. He was giving them the show they came to see. Anyway, believe what you wish. You know you will anyway, and it’s not important. :coolwink:
  15. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I copied that straight from the original KJV here in the library

    Faith hope and charity; well familiar threesome when I was a tyke

    It was likely "agape" in the Greek text. I forget the language of the original; right on the tip of my brain but another senior moment here...
    JustSheila likes this.
  16. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Really? How about a photocopy then. Have the librarian verify it and help you. Nope. I’m not buying it. Waiting for real evidence. You do have a history of, well, using poetic license and talking like a fisherman...
  17. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    1 Corinthians 13 - King James Version

    IIRC, it's the Greek word "agape" translated to English (also, context is important for choosing which word in translation).

    Also, to answer about "what is NKJV"
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  18. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Well, it’s on the Internet, but every King James Version I’ve owned or read said “love” including the hard copy I now own. :shrug:

    Thanks for the Greek word. Agape has very different nuances in Spanish than charity in English. Agape is an all-giving, all-encompassing sort of love where a person is one with another. It is the purest love, also the most romantic in its way. It seems some of those nuances were lost in English translation.
    Enthetan likes this.
  19. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Good example! Charity apparently used to mean love. :hmm: Agape love. Well you’ve both convinced me. Son of a gun I learned a lot today. All about repairing lawnmowers and what the Bible really meant about the deepest kind of love. All in one day. So is it wrong to love my lawnmower now that I understand it and fixed it and know it intimately, inside and out? :laugh:
  20. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Talking like a fisherman ...? I've never heard that expression before Sheil, but I burst out laughing when I read it although I don't really know why.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019