ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Meeting the Watchdog Committee

Discussion in 'Staff "War Stories"' started by Gadfly, Jul 26, 2009.

View Users: View Users
  1. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Transferred from another less-appropriate thread.

    I was a senior exec in a Class IV org in the early 1980s. A Watchdog Committee (WDC) Mission came into the org headed by Alan Buchanan (now declared - aren't they all). Part of the mission orders were to implement a new staff pay plan. The Msn I/C sits me down, tells me that they will be implementing these new "HCO PLs" on the Staff Pay Plan. There were 7 or 8 of these "Green on White" issues.

    But, the really strange thing is that they were each signed, NOT by "L. Ron Hubbard, Founder", but instead by the "Boards of Directors of the Churches of Scientology". I saw that, and immediately looked right at the Msn I/C and said, "No". He was startled. He wanted to know WHY I said, "no". I pointed out ever so simply, that the issues could be written by anybody, by the fucking tooth fairy for all I knew. I pulled out a few LRH issues on "who writes the policies", etc., and showed him where LRH stated very clearly and forcefully that nobody is to EVER implement a policy as LRH policy unless his name is on it. It wasn't. It was clear as a beautiful summer's day. But, logic and reasoning meant nothing to him (or the machine above him). I had to do it or else. I never liked that aspect of the operation of the Church - the ever constant threat of some penalty unless you do as you are told - despite whatever the TRUTH might be. And in this case, I was supposed to "follow orders" in direct opposition to simple and clear LRH policy. To me it was like waking up in Alice in Wonderland. You gotta be fucking kidding me! Right? NOPE! Do it or else? I basically said, "I will take Door Number Two, give me the or else".

    He tried to hand me some line of verbal data that, "LRH was trying to get off the lines and that it REALLY was by him, but that he just couldn't put his name on it". I again looked at him and referred him to the concept of "verbal data". He even got me on the phone with the Mission Ops (mission handler), who I vaguely knew, and she handed me the same PR line.

    Plus, the issues simply did not "feel" like they were written by Hubbard. After one reads many books and hundreds and hundreds of policies, one can get a sense for these things. PLUS, the ideas in the issues were just STUPID!

    I had discussed and explained this to a few other Org senior executives, so they were pretty much in agreement with me, BUT of course, they would only go so far, and in the end, DESPITE what each knew to be true, each backed down and FOLLOWED ORDERS. I could never do that. That is why I suppose I often found myself in trouble with "seniors" and "higher ups". I was never able to suffer fools well. I couldn't hide that fact.

    So, I resisted, wrote up an "Orders, Query Of", and refused to implement the policies as the Mission wanted. I was quickly removed from post and sent to the local FOLO (CLO) for a Comm Ev. I read the reports written on me by the Mission I/C by sneaking into his office one night before I was busted. He described me as "obviously a suppressive person" for "refusing to follow Command Intention". They even wrote that in my Comm Ev! While I had already had my fair share of dealings with the completely idiotic mindset of Sea Org members before, this was sort of the "nail in the coffin".

    I was sent away from my wife for 2 1/2 months. I held the Data Chief post for that time at the FOLO, and did a great job. Nothing ever happened with my Comm Ev. It really pissed me off that these complete idiots had the power to mess with my life - I was separated from my wife. It always amazed me how people with such "brilliant tech" and "righteous motives" could also be such COMPLETE ASSES! I at times so much as told them so. The response would usually be something like, "it is so hard to implement sane policies and goals on such a degraded planet and society". Yeah, right.

    I knew the LRH Comm at FOLO very well, and while she wouldn't come out and "say it", she pretty much agreed that I was "no SP". So, I wrote a KSW on her lines to get the Comm Ev canceled. It was and I went back to my Org on the same senior exec post that I had been on before!

    Interestingly, the mission was gone, the "policies" on the new finance system were never implemented, and I never heard a peep from anyone about anything. THAT is a part of the operation of the Sea Org and Church that always rubbed me the wrong way. How they can come into an area, fuck it all up, screw with people's lives, leave, cancel it ALL, and NEVER once apologize or admit their own mistakes. Utterly mind-boggling! The TRUE history of Scientology is strewn with many hundreds or even thousands of similar situations.

    This may have been an experiment by senior Sea Org leaders to run a "test case", and determine just how much BS staff and public will accept, in direct contradiction to existing LRH policy. Almost as if somebody up there was experimenting with "cognitive dissonance". "How much can people take?" "How much contrary belief can a human being tolerate and still remain convinced that he or she is normal and sane?" "What can a person or group be convinced to do in the name of some abstract goal or purpose?" Who would want to test out and determine answers to those types of questions?

    I might sometime start another thread, involving the idea that the Church of Scientology may have been, RIGHT FROM THE START, a secret government operation, testing out various psych theories, in the pattern and form of other similar PSY-OPS (psychological operations) "programmed experiments" such as Aldous Huxley and Richard Alpert with LSD (how to create the "perfect spy"), Jonestown (experiments with mass control, religion, and the manipulation of belief), Satanic Ritual Abuse and Murder (ways to test out various theories of Multiple Personality Disorder - again, how to create the perfect spy or "Manchurian Candidate"), MK Ultra and more.

    The government HAS been extremely BUSY over MANY years finding ways to conduct "experiments" with the various psych theories about "people and society". There are people in the world who take the theories of psychology and psychiatry VERY seriously, from a viewpoint of control, warfare and domination. Some of these folks are employed by the biggest and best of the world's universities, and by many extremely well-funded "research foundations" (Carnegie, Rand, Ford, etc.). The only way to REALLY "test" their theories it is to set up phony realities, within which they can then control the (scientific) variables of "thought", "ideas", "abuse", "manipulation" and "belief" - or in other words, "test" the theories out on real people in real "scientifically controlled" situations. Of course, such things would have to be extremely well hidden, due to the morally objectionable nature of such "experiments". If there are "hidden manipulators", and I don't doubt it, THEY make the C of S look like Sunday School. And THEY might very well be behind the "experiment" known as the Church of Scientology.

    Oh, I know, "he is delusional with conspiracy theories". Maybe, and maybe not. The best way to hide a REAL conspiracy is to make anyone who suspects such a thing to look like a complete fool (i.e. Conspiracy Theory, the movie, with Mel Gibson - based on actual real life MK Ultra experiments). Or as Verbal Kint (aka Keyser Söze), played by Kevin Spacey, said in the movie The Usual Suspects, "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing everyone that he didn't exist".

    Imagine. All of this posturing by LRH "against the psychs", and the whole time LRH was PART OF one of the biggest psych experiments of all time! Anything is possible. Reality can truly be much stranger than fiction. At times, actual events and situations can rival the greatest leaps of fictional imagination!

    Can anyone honestly say, while keeping a straight face, that the Church of Scientology is NOT extremely controlled? Where there is smoke, there may be fire! Some folks have the opinion that Miscavige sold out to the government and somehow "turned control over to them" during the time of the IRS settlement. I don't know. But maybe, there was nothing ever to turn over, because the government (or some hidden covert department of the government) was behind it the entire time! Just a theory . . . . But, such an understanding could and would explain a great deal! Like the unique tax exempt status of the C of S. And many other things.

    In that case, there aren't really "victims of Scientology", but instead, there are simply victims of continuing "government" experiments in mind control! It should be obvious to ANY unbiased observer that the operation of Scientology involves many aspects of what has been traditionally studied under the topic of "mind control", whether Chinese methods of brainwashing, Toffler's theories of a True Believer, Hassan's book on Cult Abuse, MK Ultra experiments or many other factors and studies. Most of the "dots" are there to see - just connect the dots.

    And, to think, YOU thought and believed, at least for a time, that you were "clearing the planet"! Just goes to show what people can be made to accept and believe under a well-controlled environment.
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  2. TheBellMare

    TheBellMare Patron


    HMMM Very very interesting.

    All masterminded by some shadowy government agency? "Victims of continuing government experiments in mind control?" I can't discount the possibility. Military Industrial Complex, Vast Right Wing Conspiracy and all of that. "They" have certainly tried, and are trying now. . .

    However, in my own experience there are far more just plain dumb things that people do, just falling-over-stupid actions, and all in the name of basic emotions like greed, revenge, lust, fear, insecurity. . .they carry those behaviors on for years, and it catches up with them --some day.

    Every civilization, every human organization with its "secret government agencies" and secret methods of control has fallen. They can just fall faster now because of real communication among we serfs, slaves and peasants out here -- first radio (Radio Free Europe and down comes the Berlin Wall) then television (Vietnam and Hell No We Won't Go) now the INTERNET.

    So I vote no on the massive government mind control conspiracy . . .Naw, couldn't happen. . .

    -- but it does give one something to watch for, doesn't it?? After all, Military Industrial complex - "they" won that one, damn sure are a big bunch of atomic weapons stored out there, more than we need. Well wait a minute, we didn't even need any of the damn things!

    Besides, if there were a massive government mind control conspiracy it would have to start with dumbing down the population, using the media to spread false information, trying to control the internet. . . Wait a minute! now I am starting to believe you!:ohmy:

    Eternal vigilance. I still think it's not a conspiracy, mostly just dumbshit things that people do, but you are right. Stalin, Hitler, and LRH really did try it and each succeeded for a lot of years and a lot of us peasants died in their clutches. Eternal vigilance. Thanks for your post.
  3. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Maybe and maybe not. It is hard to imagine that "stupidity" can explain it all. There is too much "order" to the endless shenanigans. "Order", mmmm? As in "New World Order"?

    The various aspects of MK Ultra were designed, planned and implemented. By someone. There is much evidence that what happened at Jonestown involved a very tightly controlled CIA operation. Again, it was planned and carried out. The same with various examples of Satanic Ritual Abuse where very young children undergo severe physical and emotional torture, as a way to very well "test" what factors are involved and necessary to control and thereby CREATE a "split personality". If a government or power could understand HOW to create a perfectly operational "split personality", that would provide a great advantage in terms of "spy" capability. There are some people who take this sort of thing VERY seriously. The "Satanic Cult" is the "cover" for the covert operation. Scientists can't just walk out the door and start torturing very young children to see how that affects and relates to "multiple personality disorder". But, they can do that within some group that has a propensity for similar behaviors. Most likely most of the participating members of such a satanic cult don't even know that he or she is involved in some psychological experiment. The same could very well be true for the Church of Scientology.

    Scientists are never content to theorize. They want to conduct experiments. "Social scientists" and "psychiatrists" involve a very weird aspect of things as far as normal science goes, because they very much DESIRE to conduct experiments like all the other scientists in all other fields (can you say, "Dr. Mengele"?). Do you really believe that they don't? When one also considers the tremendous amount of money and power involved with people who want answers in these areas?

    And WHO was behind Hiltler and Stalin? Some say the Illuminati, just as they were supposedly behind every other major event and force on the Earth for many hundreds (or thousands) of years. There is much evidence about various western financial interests that supported and enabled Hitler and Stalin. The Masons did have a great deal to do with the American Revolution, and the resulting Constitution and Bill of Rights. Just as they were the silent force behind the French Revolution. So, is there some conspiracy? In some ways YES, and in some ways NO. But, like everything else it changes, evolves and never looks the same from year to year. There are people who think that they know best (elitists like Hubbard), who consider themselves as genetically superior in all ways (bluebloods, etc), and who also possess tremedous power and wealth. I agree that they are stupid. But, I disagree that it all unfolds accidentally as a result of some generalized stupidity.

    I don't have the answers, but it is clear to me that the entire phenomenon known as "Scientology" involved and continues to involve extreme amounts of attempts to manipulate and control people, views, attitudes, and beliefs. WHY that is involves something else.
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  4. Axiom142

    Axiom142 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Not just stupidity but insanity and malicious intent as well. Some people just seem incapable of acting in a sane and rational manner. And then there are who wish ill towards their fellow beings.

    When these sorts of people get into positions of power and influence, they can have a destructive effect out of all proportion to their own stature and abilities. I don’t believe that there are many of the latter category, but a very large number of the former (incapable of wholly rational behaviour) in executive positions within most orgs. My theory as to why this is so, is that for anyone to witness the insanities occurring on a routine basis in Scientology and then stay in, they have to suppress any truly logical behaviour and join in the group mentality, which is rather deranged.

    I have seen a particular situation many times in CoS ‘management’ (I use the term very loosely as the reality is a very chaotic mess), where someone in a position of authority leaves their post suddenly, either by getting busted / declared or promoted to fill the shoes of another further up the food chain. This obviously leaves a vacancy which ‘has to be filled immediately’. It doesn’t matter that there are no suitable candidates or it would take many months to recruit or train one. So, the nearest available person is pushed into this vacant role, with predictably disastrous results.

    Most of the executives in the CoS are incompetent, not because they are ill-intentioned, but because they have been pushed into trying to do jobs that they are manifestly unsuited or untrained for. This explains much of the stupidity that any of us who have been around in Scientology for any length of time have witnessed so many times.

  5. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Good observation. I have seen much of exactly the same. Also, I have experienced the same having been put into a position just as you describe, where someone had been busted or sent on mission, the post was vacant, and I was assigned to a senior executive post in a Sea Org unit! That I had absolutely no training or experience didn't matter. How I could I do a decent job? I couldn't. As you point out, THAT scenario plays out over and over and over within the Church of Scientology.

    But, the stupidity wouldn't manifest if it weren't for that TONE 40 brutal demand constantly being pushed down from the top. And also, orders are given, and expected to be followed.

    Untrained people following often stupid orders within a system of severe demand and extreme expectations.

    How it could it be anything other than insane?:confused2:
  6. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    LRH created an organization of thousands of dedicated staff , working for less than a dollar an hour. That's pretty impressive. If he was capable of that, then what else might he have been capable of? He convinced us that we were working to clear the planet. Now, many decades later we are still waiting for the ACTUAL OT Levels to be released. My guess is that we are going to still be waiting for quite some time to come. If an organization is capable of this level of deception, what else are they capable of?

    Gadfly, that was a great story and post. In my opinion you brought up a possibility that we really do have to consider. If we WERE part of a secret government experiment we are entitled to be compensated for all those years, right? :D
  7. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Larry Brennan was the author of the COS corporate structure. He and
    other top execs from Int base have stated that RTC has no control over DM.

    One of my personal friends was a secretary of watchdog committe and validated that DM is in total control.

    Governments do weird stuff.

    Not as weird as COS IMO. :)
  8. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Then it MUST be true!:confused2:

    But I do agree that the C of S is VERY weird!
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2009
  9. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    I don't doubt that DM is in total control within the Cof$ sure seems that way. But I don't see how this reduces in any way the possibility that Gadfly raises of the nature of this whole thing. IF DM were operating as an agent for some outside government or organization the lack of checks and balances within the corporate structure would just serve to prevent other Int Management Execs from intervening and stopping DM from carrying out whatever agenda he has. I'm not saying that it IS this's all just speculation. I don't know what agenda he is moving forward but it certainly doesn't seem to be the "Aims of Scientology" as laid out by LRH.
  10. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    DM seems to go for power and glory.

    Anyone have contradictoty data?
  11. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    Geez, one can easily be obsessed with power and glory, AND be part of some larger scam. He is the top dog in his litttle box. That doesn't mean that there aren't larger and larger boxes, where DM would only be a small fry.

    It would be not unlike some "Commandant" (Colonel Klink) at a German concentration camp during WW II. In his little world, and it isn't that little of a world, he is the absolute power. What he says GOES. He has all the power and control in his area. BUT, he is very much NOT a bigshot in the larger picture.

    DM could easily be the same. People obsessed with power and glory exist at all levels of any hierarchy. That is just simple observable reality.

    Sure, so DM is obsessed with power and glory. So what. How does that in any way determine where he might sit on some larger totem pole? It doesn't.
  12. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    It seems that he does seek absolute power within Cof$, no question here.
    But if the Cof$ expanded greatly over the years that would have increased his power even more, would it not? I don't get that that is his intention. He's crushed Int Management, sabotaged successful marketing campaigns in the past such as the one that put DMSMH onto the Best Seller Lists back in the 80's (as described by Jeff Hawkins in "Counterfeit Dreams") and any good that he does for the Cof$ seems to be far outweighed by destructive actions. Do you think that by my labeling the destruction as intentional I am reading too much into it or seeing something that is not there?
  13. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Oh puleeease! You have got to be kidding me. Do you really believe that?
  14. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    I don't believe much of anything. Whatever the actual cause, there is a great deal of all sorts of "control" and "mental manipulation" going on within the C of S. The degree, variety and intensity of these are quite unique. More so than anywhere else in the entire world. For example, the degree of evolvement of the use of "indoctrination" in Scientology, through gradients, repetition of materials, codification of exact indoctrination techniques, study tech, correction, ethics, group rah-rah sessions, briefings, and events is quite astounding really. Where else in the world can be found such well-designed and well-orchestrated indoctrination methods? Existing anywhere to the degree that Hubbard brought them to? He really came up with a way to produce hard-core fanatics, out of modern seemingly intelligent people, who have absolutely no idea that they have become complete fanatics! Who knows, maybe I am exagerrating that.

    The above theory could just as well be true as anything else. And it is, just a theory. I have no way of knowing. I have found no bottom to the pit known as the heart of Men. It seems there are always at least a few who will do just about anything in the name of some "cause", whether that be "progress", "freedom", "advancement", "evolution" or "eternity". Or even, power and greed.

    Was Hubbard the whole reason for it all? Maybe. Or, is there more to the story? Maybe.
  15. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    I don't think you are exagerrating least in my case. Prior to getting involved I had tested (for purposes of choosing a career) in the top 2% for IQ, logical thinking, and other categories. I was analytical to the point of driving my friends crazy. I would'nt have thought that I'd of been vulnerable to this type of thing at all, but I swallowed it hook, line, and sinker and fell prey like thousands of others, and became that "complete fanatic" as you described. I've been out 20 years now and still don't completely understand the process I went through where I dropped my guard as I did and came to completely trust LRH.
  16. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    The Scientology indoctrination process is SLICK!

    There are two aspects to it and these must be understood.

    First, there is "truth" about many things on many levels. Hubbard isn't selling an entire package of total lies. He has woven a great deal of "truth" into the subject. He claims to have "solved" the mystery that Men have been trying to find answers for - for thousands of years - and in a sense he DID do that.

    He tells you when you first come in that "nobody has to accept or believe anything". He drives that idea home. You feel as if you are there, an honest experimenter, objectively "trying out" this subject. To a certain degree that does happen. Hubbard talks about "certainty" and that is a wonderful thing to develop as far as ones own abilities go. But certainty in beliefs, about all sorts of things that one really knows nothing about; that is something else entirely. The two get very confused.

    But, there is the second aspect. From the first day that you walk in, even though you have been told that you don't have to believe anything, in fact, you begin to believe in and about all so many things. THAT is the part that really traps you. You make the mistake of accepting all of Hubbard's subtle assertions and claims, slowly, over a fairly long period of time. Here are some of these type of ideas that involve BELIEFS, and which have little to do with anything able to be observed or experienced:

    Scientology is the ONLY valid workable path to spiritual freedom

    Scientology involves the LAST possible chance for human beings to go "free"

    Scientology is VITAL, senior to, and basic to everything else

    LRH was the greatest most wonderful thetan in all of eternity

    LRH "phony" history becomes "believed" by many followers

    Members accept and believe endless PR as pumped out by INT management about all sorts of things

    You come to believe that anybody speaking in any way negative about Scientology MUST be a liar, evil and some sort of SP

    You believe that any and all criticism MUST always and only stem from overts and withholds (there can be other types, and Hubbard even says so himself)

    The Church member develops, over time, a HUGE belief system, based on little more than the acceptance of various Hubbardian claims and assertions. The problem is that people can't differentiate between the aspects of the subject having to do with "wishful thinking" and with valid observable results.

    For example, Hubbard describes Flag as the "Mecca of Technical Perfection". Members often believe that. But really, that term Mecca of Technical Perfection, is a PR slogan. Much of Scientology's use of terms are PR slogans. I will explain. Hubbard was describing an IDEAL STATE. He wasn't describing a reality. He defined Flag as that, even before Flag even existed! It was and is an IDEAL, a product of the imagination. Much of Scientology is like that. Many of the terms describe something that could exist, might exist, or sure would be nice if existed, but Hubbard presents these terms and concepts as existing as REAL, right now. You doubt this? Try saying to anybody that Flag is NOT the Mecca of Technical Perfection. Explain using the facts immediately below, but regardless, you will end up in Ethics, getting handled for spreading "third party" or some other nonsense such as "disparaging the image of a Sea Org unit". These people don't CARE about the "truth". They care about their agreed upon ideals, vague concepts and fantasies.

    Throughout much of Flag's history, it has been under Mission orders. In other words, Flag has often had "tech missions" there to "fix" the state of the technical delivery. Examples of this crop up in stories all over the Internet. The "tech" at Flag is very far from "perfect". If it actually were existing at some level of "technical perfection", how could Flag constantly require missions to sort out some aspect of poor technical application? The word "perfection" is an absolute. It can't exist and doesn't exist anywhere in the entire universe. And while Hubbard knows that (ref: Data Series), he ignores that entirely when coming up with significance-loaded slogans.

    So, the notion of Flag existing as some Mecca of Technical Perfection is largely a fantasy. It is a PR slogan. It is possibly, at best, some IDEAL condition to aim for, but nonetheless, since Flag is so often suffering from endless missionaries correcting the tech, the actual state of the delivery is far from perfect. Is the level of technical ability better than most other orgs? Probably. Is it perfect? No, no, no. The key point here is that most Church members accept, believe and somehow think with the notion that Flag IS technically perfect. They are each confusing a fantasy, or some ideal, with actual reality. THIS goes on with MANY MANY concepts and things in the world of Scientology.

    One needs to go through ones mind and examine where so many of these vague and fantasy like concepts have been accepted and confused as real in some regard. For instance, the concept of "operating thetan" has no observable or able-to-be-experienced reality for just about anybody first walking into a Scientology church. The idea sounds good, the IDEA somehow resonates with you, and you would like it to be true, but it is of the nature of a hope, a dream or even a fantasy. After many years of involvement, many hours of auditing, and many of hundreds of thousands of dollars later, it still largely remains a dream for most people! This involves confusing IDEAS with what realities these ideas may represent or relate to.

    The ideas directly below are all of that nature. These things are IDEALS, or vague abstract notions of some possible existence, that people think with as being REAL. The confusion between "make believe" and "real" is largely the culprit in the delusions of any religion or ideology.

    Clearing the planet
    Clear Theta Clear
    Theta Universe
    Case Gain
    cause over matter, energy, space and time
    whole track
    time track
    having the technology
    keeping the technology pure
    RTC as the protectors of the tech

    The list could go on for pages and pages. The above terms relate to something, but more often than not, not to anything that is actually real in any common sense of the meaning.

    The world of real and fantasy is utterly confused in the minds of most Earth humans. This same type confusion gets markedly WORSE when it comes to Scientologists. Because, within the Church environment, one cannot even discuss the various ideas and concepts outside of session or the courseroom. And, if and when you are caught disagreeing with any concept just as given, you then are "corrected" with either qual actions or ethics. It is very difficult to understand what I am talking about here while immersed in the Church environment. Everyone there happily confuses levels of abstraction all of the time. Vague possible ideas and notions are often taken as fact. Just like Flag being the Mecca of Technical Perfection.

    I strongly suggest and reiterate that ANYONE would greatly benefit by reading a good book on the subject of general semantics. There is no real way to come to otherwise understand the amazing degree to which most thinking minds totally confuse levels of abstraction, and also totally confuse ideas and concepts with the actual things these ideas and concepts relate to.

    Here's an excellent book on the subject:
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2009
  17. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Yes, It is VERY slick. You made some very good points and when I get time I will check out that book you suggested.
    There are some additional tools as well which are used such as the Dissem Drill where you find the persons "ruin" and whatever is bothering them you indicate to them that "Scientology can help them with that".
    And they just do an incredible job at getting you to drop your guard through the "What is true is what is true for you" type quotes and other ways. You just don't see it when your immersed in it as you said, just as a fish probably doesn't think of himself being in water. (or does he? ;)

    Thank-You for writing all that as it is helping me to realize some things about the whole process.
  18. dexter gelfand

    dexter gelfand Patron Meritorious

    Well Done, Gad!

  19. Gadfly

    Gadfly Crusader

    About the "ruin" thing, see this other thread:
  20. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    For the moment I've just read post #21 from that thread as I'm about to go to work, and again, you've made some great points here. It certainly does seem that LRH could have used the Marketing and PR Series as you said (specifically the Survey Tech). Seems as though you pulled back the curtain somewhat on the Wizard. ;)