ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

New to posting but not to Scientology - a question

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by LookingBack, Dec 19, 2016.

View Users: View Users
  1. LookingBack

    LookingBack New Member

    Who were the important people at the New York church of scientology in 1977?

    Today I saw the Underground Bunker blog piece with a picture of John Carmichael and it brought back a bunch of memories of when my boyfriend, who joined the sea org, and tried to get me, a non-scientologist, to join. A high-level guy at the NY church sat down with me and tried to get me to join, too. Bit of a dramatic time.

    Would that possibly have been John Carmichael? He looks familiar.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  2. Veda

    Veda Sponsor


    1977? New York? I went back on lines as a public during late 1975 & early 1976, and the Academy was small and depopulated (compared to the earlier Martinique hotel days of the late 1960s/early 1970s.)

    In the winter, the new building (off Central park) was cold and people wore winter coats inside. I can recall auditing in a room where I could see my, and the pc's, breath. It was that cold.

    The "Academy" went from the (Martinique hotel) fanatical and "unreasonable" and "ruthless" emphasis on "production" to a kind of limp wristed laid back attitude. Then Method 4 word clearing (a total waste of time) was adopted. Frankly, I preferred the earlier Martinique fanaticism to the limp wristed approach.

    What names do I remember from that time? Let's see (spelling may be off): Sally Allerdice, John Allerdice, Mary Cummings, Charlie Batdorf, Linda Batdorf, John Hansen... Wes Beecher... come to mind... I can recall the faces better than the names.

    I went back in late 1982 for one last visit and the Org was almost empty. This was yet another new location for the New York Org, near the theater district. I walked in and said, "I've heard a lot suppressive, out tech, verbal data and I need to check the LRH source material." Having said enough hypno-Scientology buzz words, they were only too happy to assist me.

    Posted on the wall was a very large collection of pages of "SP Declares." Everybody who was anybody in Scientology was being Declared.

    Shortly afterwards, I formally resigned my membership.

    Wish I could remember more names, but that's the best I can do. :)
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  3. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    Thanks Veda.

    I realize it was a fair bit of time ago but could you comment on the reasons for the bigger numbers in the first 60/70 period and the decline into each of the later times. Things like personalities, hopes aspirations, age of 'the group' and of course the ' layers of the onion 'which might have been known or glimpsed in each.
    Of course the FBI raids and the ' finance police ' and ' underlying coup ' probably were ( as we look in the rear mirror with hugely greater available recent reports of those times ) influences.
    Both, or all snapshots of each ' present time or ' duration of incidents ' would be wonderful.
    A big request I realize so please respond to the degree you want or not want.
  4. LookingBack

    LookingBack New Member

    So in 1977 where was the exact location? I remember going to the place -- upper west side?

    And I got dragged to a kind of rally event in March 1977 in an auditorium. Where would that have been?

    In hindsight it must have been the LRH birhday thing. There was an enormous photo of him on an easel on the stage, surrounded by flowers, which tipped me into thinking there was some Bagwan/Hare Krishna - like fanatasim going on. At the beginning of the event they played that 1970's Doobie Brothers song "Taking it to the Sreets" and we were told to turn to the person next to us and shake hands. What was the purpose of that? Ever since, when I hear that song I think of that weird event. Ruined the song for me.

    I can't remember anything else, except that THAT MAN swept in with his good-looking wife, they were all dressed up and they acted like celebrities. I found the whole thing bizarre.
  5. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    If you're talking about a handsome executive with a good looking wife, one name which comes to mind is Jerry Indursky, who was in Foundation along with his wife Debbie. I think Jerry was Public Exec Sec in those days. His wife was auditor or C/S.

    I think Jerry and Debbie stayed well-dressed because Jerry had a well paying, non-Scientology, day job in sales. Plus he would get a lot of reg commissions.
  6. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    1982 was the time of the Great Purge, when David Mayo was declared, and a lot of people left with him.
  7. Veda

    Veda Sponsor


    Well, let's see. Around 1965, with the release of the Clearing Course. It was stated that one only needed to do the Clearing Course, and then do Route One in the book Creation of Human Ability, and one would be an "Operating Thetan." Lots of people were excited by this.

    Then came OT 2 and, inexplicably, it seemed that there was "more bank" after one had "gone Clear." (And this was the extremely hyped "first real Clear" of the "Clearing Course.") Still, it was only one additional level to OT! or so people thought.

    But then came OT 3, which was hyped to the hilt, and sure it was yet another level of "bank," but people were still excited, and the new Bridge Grade Chart was there for all to see with its eight OT levels, and each level after OT 3 seemed not only exciting but fun. At the top was (old) OT 8, which was something like, "Knowing and willing cause over matter, energy, space, time, form, and life, subjective and objective."

    A couple of years of auditing and one would be exterior with full perception, zooming through the universe, communicating with all sorts of life forms, having great fun and adventure, and even zapping "SPs" (as needed) with lightning bolts - well, you get the idea.

    Then, some time in 1973 - although I don't recall it appearing on the Grade Chart until 1975 - it was stated that there are 15 levels above OT 7. Old OT 8, nevertheless, continued to be sold (even though it didn't exist) until, at least, 1978.

    When word was out that Scientology was no longer a quick and easy route to super-duperman, that would, likely, have taken the wind out of some people's sails.

    And all of this is a description of events before 1978, and before the announcement of "Dianetic Clear" and "NOTs."

    1978 and 1979 brought another rise in hysterical "VVVGIs" over what was, circa 1978, an even longer and more expensive Bridge, and it went on from there.

    People, who should have known better, were lining up, checkbooks in hand, to do "their NOTs."

    Then, a few years later, Hubbard ordered the Missions (franchises) looted.


    Here are the stats on numbers of Clears from 1965 to 1978. The reference, which appears to be accurate in this case, is the first (1978) edition of What is Scientology?. To ascertain the number of Clears for a given year, subtract the above number from the below number.

    1966: 172

    1967: 725

    1968: 1661

    1969: 2879

    1970: 3248

    1971: 3665

    1972: 4028

    1973: 4574

    1974: 5167

    1975: 5716

    1976: 6312

    1977: 6601

    1978: 6879

    So, in 1968, 726 Clears were certified. In 1969, 1,218 Clears were verified. And in 1973, 546 Clears were certified. And in 1978, 278 Clears were certified, although this number may be incomplete as the book was published during 1978.

    The line on the graph had been slowly leveling out since the late 1960s/early 1970s. Apparently Hubbard noticed this and was not pleased. After all, it "invalidated" his greatness and his genius, and was bad for business. 1977 was a particularly bad year.

    So Hubbard made a convenient "discovery" ("Dianetic Clear") and sent the Clear graph line zooming UP. Suddenly there were oodles and oodles of "Dianetic Clears" :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::happydance::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: and the number of Clears began to rapidly mean nothing.

    Wait a minute! This isn't a bridge. It's a pier leading into a dense fog!
  8. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    The upper west side sounds about right.
  9. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Yes, after the Martinique, the NY Org moved to a building off Central Park West for a few years. The FOLO was on the top floor.

    Then they moved to their current location on 46th Street.
  10. LookingBack

    LookingBack New Member

    I think the guy that tried to recruit me back in 1977 must have been Jerry Indursky. Thanks for figuring that out.

    I felt like Jerry was trying to manipulate me and even at the young age of 18, I resented him for it. He was dismissive of my heading off to college, which I was all set to do. I wanted to study forestry and he said don't waste your time, the church owns vast land holdings out west, and you could, uh, help plant trees out there and see you'd still be doing what you want to do!

    So the boyfriend signed the billion year contract, and went to work in the nursery at the New York church taking care of babies. I saw him once during that time and he had gotten a skin rash on his face "from changing diapers". Were conditions that unclean there?

    We broke up and he scolded me for going to college, and told me he didn't want to hear in the future that I did something as wasteful as go to graduate school.

    I heard he stayed in the Church, ended up in Phoenix working for some Scientology-owned payroll (?) company, and played in a scientology band. He had distanced himself from his family, and died of cancer a few years ago.

    Twenty years ago I started dating a guy (who I ended up marrying) and he mentioned that his sibling was a scientologist. Argh. The sibling is down in Clearwater, highly involved, in fact the sibling's whole family is in, hook, line, and sinker, but the sibling wants to stay in touch with the family. For most of the sibs, they want no relationship...too much bad water under the bridge from when the sibling joined scientology in the 1970's and was out of communication with the family for several years. Reverse disconnection!

    Because my husband wants to have a relationship with this sibling, he avoids talking about scientology and puts up with the scripted phone call that ALWAYS begins with a rote description of how wonderful the weather is in Florida (I know, fair roads fair weather, whatever that training is). I tire of the "everything is always great" and the lack of emotional sharing or compassion, humility. What comes across is an arrogance about knowing how things work in the world. (The rest of my husband's family asks, why is this sibling always laughing inappropriately?) The sibling is like.... a smooth, round ball - you hold it in your hands and there is no texture to sink your fingertips into. Nothing to catch with your fingers, no depth, no scrapes and dents from a life lived openly, no sharing of joys and pain and challenges of the human experience. Everything is smooth.

    The weird part is this sibling and has no idea that I know a lot about scientology, and I could end the relationship with a few well-placed remarks about the church. Oddly, it kind of makes me feel empowered over them.

    Oh well - I guess I shared this because who else but you folks would understand?

    And here is a question: my husband wants to know what to expect for end-of-life services should his sibling die first. I started to tell him there probably wouldn't be anything that would involve us outsiders, but maybe I am wrong?
  11. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Wasn't this the old OT auditing (before the BT auditing) that was based on Aleister Crowley"s stuff?
    (i.e. auditing commands: "be near the Earth, be near the Sun, be near the Moon"?)
  12. Churchill

    Churchill Gold Meritorious Patron

    That's pretty good, Veda.

    Carmichael was after 1977, IIRC.

    How about Scottie and Henry Regensberg, Susan Rowe, Ray and Maureen Biaiardi, Vicki Gailzaid?, Judy Mercy?, Ben and Cora Gibson, Jerry and Debbie Indursky, Scott Saks, & Pat and Debbie Ward.
  13. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    I haven't got anything to write about the thread, I just wanted to say what a pleasure it is to see someone spelling Crowley's fucking forename correctly for a change! :biggrin:

    Note: Even my Firefox spell-checker puts a squiggly red line under it indicating you've spelled it wrong. Duh!

    Don't ask why it's such a big fucking deal to me, it just is. I put it down to OCD and a degree in pedantry.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  14. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    That's the wording of the main bit.

    The service itself is not that dissimilar to a regular one, EXCEPT that Scientologists believe in reincarnation and that the deceased is probably present observing the service but without the mental and physical impediments that may have been there before dying (dementia etc). So the Scn attendees won't necessarily be griefy, which may look out of place to non-Scn friends and family of the deceased.

  15. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    LRH's Memorial may give you an idea of what to expect - kind of like an Irish Wake without the liquor.
  16. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron

    Her smoothness is merely a front. If she's an "active" scilon, you can be sure she's subject to
    the stresses that the org puts on all its members. Incessant demands for money ruining personal finances, threats and imposition of ethics actions.

    My experience with those that have died is that nothing is done beyond perhaps an announcement of their passing. Never in the 30+ years I was involved did I ever hear about a scn funeral service being conducted.
  17. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    It would depend on who the "next of kin" is. If the Scientology sibling has a Scientologist spouse, then there would be some sort of Scientology wake, arranged by the spouse. In that case, you might get invited, or might not, depending on the current relationship.

    If the sibling is unmarried, and your husband is the next-of-kin, then be prepared for the possibility that your husband may be the one to arrange for end-of-life services, at which point you could do it however you want. This may also be the case if the sibling's wife does not have the funds to arrange for funeral/burial (a distinct possibility with Scientologists), and approaches you guys.
  18. LookingBack

    LookingBack New Member

    Hmmm. One part of it really caught my attention!

    "Today, come wiser now
    The chains gone weak
    And tyranny of the cult
    Gone tired with the years"
  19. LookingBack

    LookingBack New Member

    The sibling's spouse has worked for the church for decades. One of their children married and joined the sea org at age 18. If the sibling dies before my husband and there was a service, I think he would be invited but I am not sure I would....the sibling's spouse doesn't like me. I asked a few questions once about scientology's tax exempet status and the frackas with the IRS, and boy did she shut that conversation down.

    Another question: how to continue a dialogue when they shut the conversation down? One time my husband was telling the sibling about a relative who had surgery and was having a tough recovery, and the sibling said abruptly that he couldn't hear it and changed the topic. Huh? Why?
  20. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    With regard to the sibling shutting down this particular conversation, you have to understand the way scientologists are trained to think. They believe everyone is responsible for their own condition therefore if this person is having a tough recovery from surgery it is their own fault.

    Also, they are trained to "be effective" therefore they are not allowed to give sympathy. I'm surprised the sibling didn't say that the person who'd had surgery should stop whining and do something about it. That's what I would expect a scientologist to say.

    Anyway, the reason they shut down that conversation was probably because it was just considered to be "entheta" and they are not allowed to go into agreement with this type of situation. If the person who'd had the surgery doesn't want to solve their own problems then they should shut the fuck up. That's the attitude of a scientologist.