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Question to (ex-)Scios and (ex-)Staff: What should you have done differently?

Discussion in 'Stories From Inside Scientology' started by knn, Apr 7, 2009.

  1. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    IDK. It's kinda like staying in a bad marriage. Afterward you can say "Gee, I should have got out sooner", but then you'd always wonder if you really gave it your best shot. After 32 years I can say ..."I put everything I could have into my relationship with Scientology". Because of that I have no guilt or regrets for leaving.
     
  2. ExScnDude

    ExScnDude Patron with Honors

    Wow! Just about the worst president in the USA shows up here - the father of the modern Republican party ideology. Hopefully you've rehabilitated yourself some. :D

    I should have said "Go Fuck Yourself!" to the first wild-eyed, crazed exec who ever gave me a hard time. That would have saved me a lot of years and wasted effort.
     
  3. Tiger Lily

    Tiger Lily Gold Meritorious Patron

    Don't believe that for a second knn. :no:

    No pressure though. I was just checking. :wink2:

    -TL
     
  4. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    What I should have done differently, as a Staff Member:

    1) Code of Honor.

    2) Code of Honor.

    3) Code of Honor.

    Essentially, I alloyed my affinity for the subject of scientology to the group pretending to deliver it, and allowed my own opinion of myself to be influenced by decrees from that group. Additionally, I allowed my trust in that group to supercede my prior commitments to my marriage. I was waiting for them to do the right thing, and ended up giving them the room to separate me from my family before I could fix the situation.
     
  5. cantsay

    cantsay Patron Meritorious

    As much as I wish I hadnt gone through all that heartache, all the hell, blood, sweat and tears, it wasnt ALL for nothing - it has constributed to make me the person that I am today, and Im quite proud of the person Ive become.

    I dont think I would be such a rounded, logical person if history had been different. Who knows. At least now I know how much shit I can get into when I let others tell me what is right and wrong, instead of trusting myself.
     
  6. Telepathetic

    Telepathetic Gold Meritorious Patron

    I don't quite see it as writing a book or directing a movie. People get money, praise and other good things from doing such things. :D

    Now, if the question were directed towards the future...I might have a few things to say.

    TP
     
  7. Mystic

    Mystic Crusader

    by-pass

    I would have started meditating at the age of 16 and just by-pass all this schidt.
     
  8. lkwdblds

    lkwdblds Crusader

    The early gains vs one's Code of Honor

    When a person is blown out by an intro lecture and then believes he or she has achieved major gains in their early courses and auditing, I think that person can forgive himself for rationalizing or looking the other way when he encounters his first major outpoints.

    The critical point comes when a basic tenet you love turns out not to be practiced in the Church as promised. A good example is the maxim, "If it isn't true for you it isn't true." When you first have conclusive evidence that you can not use this datum if you are staff or Sea Org, I think that this is more than a Red Flag but is a complete breach of trust against the person who is trying to operate using this datum and the Leadership of the the group which insists in a policy 180 degrees opposed to the datum.

    In my case, I left the Sea Org quickly when I detected many basic truths which they espoused being violated on a routine basis. I am proud of doing this. On the other hand, I stayed in the Church for more than 25 years after leaving the Sea Org and I feel this was a real break down in my moral fiber
    and backbone. I stayed far too long, buying in to a bunch of crap that it was my own PTSness, out-ethics and case which was causing me problems.
    I thought everyone else was winning but me. If I had it to do over again, I would leave after 13 years instead of 32 years. It took me 13 years to figure out the Church was more interested in money and statistics than in actually helping individuals and mankind and that is exactly when I should have left.
    lkwdblds
     
  9. Peter Soderqvist

    Peter Soderqvist Patron with Honors

    That question seems somewhat awkward formulated!
    Because it is not possible to go back in time and so make everything different.
    It is much more constructive to ask; now when you know better what will you do when you see the Scientologists? I would tell them the truth (the truth as I see it)! That the problem you have with no expansion, and bad reputation is stemming from your own misapplication of basics, because as you know, you are responsible for you own condition! The misapplication is as follow; once a upon time back in 1938 L. Ron Hubbard established Survival as the dynamic principle of existence, and at least in 1950 the optimum solution; “The greatest Good For the Greatest Number of Dynamics” as its modus operandi! It seems to me that CoS today have left out the dynamic principle of existence from the equation since it is against your survival to work as a staff for close to no salary at all with the justification that it is the best for the group! The Communist in the East succumbed because of that, so we should now better in the West than to do anything of the sort! In short: first find out what is best for your survival, next do the optimum solution! :)
     
  10. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Yes, he said that.

    It wasn't uncommon for Hubbard to tell Scientologists what he was going to do to them before he did it to them. Sometimes, he'd tell them while he was doing it to them. (Usually, it was presented as being something that the "enemy" would do.)

    It had a "nothing up my sleeve" effect on people who trusted him.

    Generally, it messed with people's heads by throwing off their capacity to defend against what he was actually doing to them.

    What's remarkable is that Scientology still uses these quotes to mess with people in much the same manner.
     
  11. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    Welcome to the island of LOOOST!

    No, the statement "greatest number of dynamics" is a trap. Because it doesn't say "greatest number of YOUR dynamics". If it would say "your" then you could make an equation like "Hmm, my dynamics go down the drain thus it's better I won't become staff".

    Instead it says "greatest number of dynamics" which includes dynamics of every life form in this universe. Thus YOUR dynamics don't count too much.

    You could state "But wait a sec! If MY dynamics get killed then noone's gonna save the universe". But that's not how the Church thinks. The Church doesn't plan for eternity. The Church only plans from thursday to thursday. Thus "booms" never translate into growth.
     
  12. Tiger Lily

    Tiger Lily Gold Meritorious Patron

    Very well stated. Thanks.

    Veda, that articulates very well what I have been seeing unfolding in my understanding recently. . . . from realizing that the COfS has the suppressive characteristics that are introduced so early (ups and downs course, or early ethics training) to actual things LRH said as a "warning" about what could happen.

    So here's the question I'm struggling with -- which was it -- was he "good", really warning about what the SP's could do, or was he "evil" using our trust in him against us, playing with our minds, and laughing all the way to the bank.

    And where in the world did he learn to manipulate so effectively? No arguing the guy was good at it, no matter what his intentions were.

    Someday I really hope I understand all this. :dizzy:

    -TL
     
  13. Voltaire's Child

    Voltaire's Child Fool on the Hill

    I think that is only important from an historical perspective.
     
  14. sp declared

    sp declared Patron with Honors

    Many things. But the one I most regret is that, while in the SO, I was the chiarman of a comm ev on a Mission Holder and I decided we should declare her and we did so. Violating KSW = you are suppressive = we are going to put your head on a pike.

    Little I thought at the time about the fact I was actually breaking up a family and throwing somebody's life in hell. Later on I came to realize the magnitude of such an overt act and I regret it.

    I cannot mention your name my dear friend from California. But look, I was young and I was an asshole. A complete asshole. I cannot forgive myself for the harm this has probably caused to you: the connections to your family, your friends, etc. What a bad cycle.

    I apologize and, even though this may or may not repair the harm I caused, be aware that Karma, later on, did catch up with me. I apologize.

    :no:

    Sp declared
     
  15. CornPie

    CornPie Patron Meritorious

    What would I do different?

    Never agree to anything "life changing" without thinking it over for 24 hours.

    If they call me in exactly 24 hours, I add another 48 hours, 72 hours, etc.

    The better the salesperson is, the more important it is to make them wait.

    Ask around, look for the good and bad news. Enter "xyz sucks" into Google.

    This includes; taking a class, joining staff, buying a car, moving, mortgage.

    This does not include; choosing a restaurant, going to a movie, buying a TV.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I think another thing is, if you realize you've made a mistake, get out as early as possible.

    Because the longer you hang on, the tougher it's going to be to get out.

    And the more they head-screw you for being a "quitter", the worse it would have been if you'd have hung around longer.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009
  16. apple

    apple Patron Meritorious

    shoulda,woulda, coulda

    An Exec. (OT 3) when he was fatally injured said to leave Scn. he said it was not worth it. I should have left. Especially when I could see the red flags popping up. I would not have left empty handed. I would have convinced the nicest Scn. girl to leave, then we would ride off, start a career early and a new life and make babies. What an incredibly productive, non-wasteful plan for life it would have been. The mind then would have not been so garbled by Scn. think.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009
  17. Peter Soderqvist

    Peter Soderqvist Patron with Honors


    Soderqvist1: Let’s see what Ron has to say about it, but first let me quote Michael Shermer!
    I have 5 books by Michael Shermer the Executive Director of Skeptic Society, I have read "why People Believe weird Things", "The Borderline of Science", "How we Believe", and his fourth book; "The Science of Good and Evil: Why People Cheat, Gossip, Care, Share, and Follow the Golden Rule." He has a new theory of Ethics, which he calls "the Provisional Theory of Ethics", it do align with basics in Dianetics and Scientology! I am wondering about what Shermer would say if he knew that Ron was on to this already in 1938?

    The science of Good and Evil chapter 7 page 187:
    For Millennia, philosopher and observer of human behavior have noted that we have a tendency to seek pleasure and avoid pain. Pleasure and pain encompasses many things, from pure physical to ethereal states. We may find pleasure in a kiss or in an idea. We my experience pain in a slap or in an insult. Happiness is a good synonym for pleasure, and unhappiness is a good synonym for pain, and thus we my state that one of the fundamental drives of human nature is that we strive for greater levels of happiness, and avoid greater level of unhappiness. My Colleague, social scientist and moral philosopher Jay Stuart Snelson, expressed this sentiment well in his "win-win principle"; "Always seek gain through the gain of others, and never seek gain through the forced or fraudulent loss of others!

    Chapter 6 Page 158: Absolute Morality
    As defined earlier Morality involves right and wrong thoughts and behaviors, in context of the rules of a social group. Page 159: here yet another problem is averted by fuzzy logic, where shades of probabilities allow us to assign fractional values to moral answers that are more or less likely to be applicable. Page 162: Jeremy Bentham 's principle of the "greatest happiness for the greatest number". Specifically, I found his quantitative utilitarianism attractive.


    Bart Kosko
    Kosko’s most popular book to date was the international Best-seller Fuzzy Thinking, about man and machines thinking in shades of gray.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_Kosko

    Michael Shermer
    http://www.skeptic.com/

    The Primary Axioms By L. Ron Hubbard
    It has been noted that there is a gradation in the scale of survival. Gains toward the ultimate goal are pleasurable. Failures toward the final defeat are sorrowful or painful. Pleasure is therefore the perception of well-being, or an advance toward the ultimate goal. Pain, therefore, is the perception of a reduction toward the final defeat. Both are necessary survival factors. For the purpose of Dianetics, good and evil must be defined. Those things which may be classified as good by an individual are only those things which aid himself, his family, his group, his race, mankind or life in its dynamic obedience to the command, modified by the observations of the individual, his family, his group, his race or life. As evil may be classified those things which tend to limit the dynamic thrust of the individual, his family, his group, his race or life in general in the dynamic drive, also limited by the observation, the observer and his ability to observe.
    http://www.ronthephilosopher.org/phlspher/page24.htm


    The Dynamics
    Every individual is made up of a central thrust through existence. This drive, this thrust through existence, is survival. It is the effort on the part of the organism to survive. We call the urge toward survival a dynamic. As this urge becomes enturbulated (put into a state of agitation or disturbance) or influenced by outside forces, it is either suppressed or it is diluted with other people’s purposes. That is to say, other people force their purposes on the individual. In either way, the dynamic itself becomes to some slight degree enturbulated. As the survival dynamic is cut back or as it is entered or acted upon by other influences – other people and the regular suppressors of life, such as the absence of food, clothing and shelter – this dynamic can become more and more enturbulated until it is headed toward death, or succumb, exactly in the opposite direction. The dynamic goes toward succumb in the exact ratio that it is enturbulated. It goes toward survival in the exact ratio that it is clean and clear. That is regarding it as just one dynamic. If we take a look at this dynamic through a magnifying glass, we find that in this one thrust there are actually eight thrusts, or eight dynamics.
    http://www.scientologyhandbook.org/SH2_2.HTM

    The Dynamics
    An individual seeks survival on one or all of these dynamics and fails when he abandons a dynamic as a survival route. For instance, one who has abandoned all routes to survival except self, the first dynamic, is in a desperate state. The individual who says, "I can live alone" is very interesting. He can’t live without lichen and moss. They create soil so that vegetables can grow. He can’t live without a lot of odds and ends like, for instance, trees to make firewood. That is a life form and he has to be interdependent with this life form. Most important, he is interdependent with the physical universe as he would sure play the devil surviving as a human organism if he didn’t have an earth to walk on. The dynamics mean, simply, how many forms of survival are there. The number of dynamics merely adds up to the number of fields or entities a man has to be in cooperation with to get along. The individual is trying to survive, one way or the other, on all these dynamics at once. No solution is an optimum solution unless it takes into account all the dynamics influenced by it and gives each one its optimum solution.

    That sounds complicated, but it means if you and Bill were in business together and you tried to do a solution that gave you all the benefit and didn’t give Bill any, you would find that it would not work out. It is fundamental in these dynamics that every time you get a solution where the other dynamics aren’t taken into account, where their interests aren’t taken into account, you get a general failure. As soon as you knock out one of these dynamics on a human being and say, "For this individual, this dynamic cannot possibly exist," you get trouble, because they all get knocked out. They come down to the same level, in other words. If you cut out half of one dynamic, you have cut out half of the rest of the dynamics. This package of dynamics is very vital to the survival of an individual.
    http://www.lronhubbard.org/human/dyn1.htm

    Soderqvist1: example; you are dependent upon your fifth dynamic because you need oxygen, and vegetable kingdom is dependent upon carbon dioxide from you, the Biologists call this “symbiosis”, meanwhile the Scientologists call it “Exchange by Dynamics”. Reduce your inhalation of oxygen to half the rest of your dynamics is reduced accordingly, because you have problems to do anything at all!

    Member Been Done had
    Now take a look at my favorite; KSW33. "What we expect of a Scientologist."
    Basically is says no wog can ever be successful or thrive. No one can raise a family, run a business, a country without Scn tech. It encourages Scientologists to hit for the key spots of society, "the president's secretary" or "the advisor of the trade union." "Make a good sound living at it, drive a good car, but get your job done." Interesting, right! This is Ron's good car tech. Then why all the shitboxes in the org parking lots? Because this HCOB is not in every course pack and pales to the life or death fanaticism of KSW1. If KSW33 was given the importance of KSW1 then the CofS would be a much more formidable force in today's world.The path of the church is clear, it will continue to chase Thursday at two into oblivion... BDH
    http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=185436#post185436

    Soderqvist1: As an endnote, I have read these 4 books by Michael Shermer, and "The Demon-Hunted World, Science as a Candle in the Dark" by Carl Sagan, and Steven Hassan’ s both “Combating Cult Mind Control”, and “Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves” And “Bare-Faced Messiah” by Russell Miller, and “Messiah or Madman” by Bent Corydon. “A Piece of Blue Sky”, and “The Total Freedom Trap” By Jon Attack. "Tom Cruise: An Unauthorized Biography" by Andrew Morton, I am simply bookish, frankly; I have over 600 hundred books in my home, no fiction!
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009