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Robert Heinlein, A Stranger in a Strange Land, and Ron Hubbard

Discussion in 'L Ron Hubbard' started by Mimsey Borogrove, Mar 29, 2013.

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  1. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    So. What the heck? I am wondering to what extent Heinlein influenced Hubbard or vice versa. See, I just listened to Heinlein's book a Stranger in a Strange Land book on audio book while driving, and many points in the book struck me as Scientology. The mental gains resulting in a healthy body, the ability to leave one’s body, the utopian group. My biggest criticism of Bob's work is it seems like a daydream to me. Especially his later books. And the free love bit, well, seemed unreal. But as the book progressed I began to appreciate him as a writer more and more. The further I went the more parallels between his fiction and my understanding of Scientology ( the version I hooked up with in the late sixties ) became apparent.

    I began to wonder - who influenced whom?

    Cut to: I read a bit about R.A. Heinlein on wikipedia, and discover, he was married 3 x, his 3rd wife was a muse of sorts, he knew Campbell, odds and ends about his life.


    So, now I am listening to L. Wright's wonderful book about Scientology on CD as I am driving home from work, And what do I hear? Hubbard had an affair with Heinlein's wife (which one, I don't know). And this is on the heels of his hooking up with Sara which made Parsons see red. Oh, sorry. Was Robert A. putting his free love theories to the test? Wright has Parsons getting pretty jealous. One wonders.

    Randy Ron. A side of him I never knew.

    But, back to my point - which came first, Heinlein's ideas or Hubbard’s?

  2. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Interesting topic, thanks. There's some work on Hubbard, Heinlein, and his wife Leslyn in this OCMB thread.
  3. JackStraw

    JackStraw Silver Meritorious Patron

    The "Stranger in a Strange Land" characters included the "fair witness" which may have influenced or been influenced by "obnosis" drills:

    What color is that house? "White... on this side" as she dove into the pool.

  4. Leon

    Leon Gold Meritorious Patron

    LRH crops up in various places in Heinlein's works. You'll find odd references to a red haired guy and other oblique hints.

    And also the slight hint of kinkiness to his sex preferences. Heinlein's I mean. These are all regular features.
  5. R6Basic

    R6Basic Patron Meritorious

    Also, lead character decides he needs to start a religion to help the world become a better place.

    I have read Stranger in a Strange Land at least twice so but do not know if I fully grok the book.
  6. Lurker5

    Lurker5 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Wow, I read this long before knowing anything about scno/co$, in fact was still at home in school, jr-high? or high? school . . .? Can't exactly recall. When it first came out (paperback). My dad was big sci fi fan (me too). Loved it, though even at the time I had same thoughts as Mimsey. Now I am shocked to hear of these connections/similarities to lrh/scno/co$. :omg: Holy crap . . . But I am happy to say, I out-grew my crush on the Michael character in this book. :blush: Thank God, or I might have really fallen for scno (but not lrh, ick) . . . Yikes. :unsure::ohmy:

    Edit: Looked it up, I was in jr high !
  7. JackStraw

    JackStraw Silver Meritorious Patron

    I found myself put off by Heinlein's seeming (unseemly) interest in incest in his "adult" books. Time Enough For Love, etc.
    The "juvenile" books were great, but the others were-twisted. I didn't like them. In some ways, a great author, in others, a damn pervert.

  8. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    The whole "thou art God" business strikes me as the 7th dynamic sort of a concept. It is amazing what you pick up on a second read - and what I like/hate about audio books is that you can't skip ahead - you get to hear every word, no matter how cringe worthy. Now I admit, this was written around 1960, but still, dear, the dialogue - aiiyiee. Oh wait. I take that back. I saw some of Two Broke Girls my wife was watching the other night. Yeowch!

    Share the water,

  9. today's scifi don't have the same soul
    just gimme that ole time grok and roll
  10. Don Crom 3rd mo can

    Don Crom 3rd mo can Patron with Honors


    :coolwink: C- Ya DC
  11. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Heinlein's third wife was Virginia "Ginny" Gerstenfield. RAH and Ginny started their affair while RAH was still married to Leslyn. (Patterson, Wm. (2010) Robert Heinlein: In Dialog with his century (p. 424). I noticed the use of "muse" in Ginny's 2003 obituary, but I have not seen where Robert called her that.

    Hubbard's extramarital sequence was Leslyn, while Hubbard was doing his "Princeton post-graduate" stint, and then Sara in Pasadena.

  12. Leon

    Leon Gold Meritorious Patron

    'Do what thou wilt' is the whole of the law. The only law.
  13. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    The best Hubbard reference by Heinlein, IMO, is in the closing chapters of his book Number Of The Beast.
    L Ron O'Leemy! That one is a classic! :dieslaughing:

    L. Ron O'Leemy
    Claiming to be an agent of the InterSpace Patrol, he tried to arrest Zebadiah Carter at the Interuniverse Society conference. Hilda Burroughs thwarted him and discovered that he was a Black Hat. He tried to escape via Bifrost, but it dissolved and he tumbled to an unknown destination.
  14. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    This just in from Wikipedia....
    I can see how a being a celeb gave him access to various women, and the ease of having affairs. I wonder how much of this theme of free love was a justifier for his personal affairs. As the wanton sexualituy expanded, I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, which it did in the form of a fit of jealousy by Ben over Gillian. This theme annoyed me more in some of his later books than this one.

  15. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    This is from the BEFORE YOU DO SCIENTOLOGY.COM Discussion thread:

    Here's some interesting affairs and possible homosexual conduct with Robert Heinlein and L. read that here first:

  16. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    L. Wright goes into some detail of Hubbards womanizing in his book, plus the business of his reading some incantination while Parsons was trying to father a moon calf. I kind of suspected Heinlein was of the same ilk, given his treatment of sex in his books. I guess they both were in power on the 2nd dynamic, what with all of the power changes from one woman to the next....

  17. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Adam Rostoker (1959-1997) argued that Heinlein wrote Stranger in a Strange Land as an "allegorical recapitulation of Thelema" and linked Stranger to the Babalon Working through the words of Parsons' "scribe," L. Ron Hubbard.

    In Sex and Rockets, John Carter mentioned Adam Rostoker in relation to the Heinlein/Parsons controversy.

    I don't know why L. Sprague de Camp would maintain that Heinlein did not know Parsons. De Camp and Heinlein corresponded in 1949 to arrange a 20 July meeting between de Camp and Parsons. [Heinlein archives CORR306-08]

    Patterson wrote that Heinlein and Parsons met through their mutual interest in rocketry, apparently following a November 1939 LA Times article about Parsons, Frank Molina and Ed Forman, shortly after Parsons had a paper on powder rocket fuels published in Astronautics. Both men were members of the American Rocket Society (p. 345). It's reported that Heinlein joined while aboard the USS Lexington. (Ref. History of AIAA.) According to Patterson, Heinlein reported to the USS Lexington on 23 June 1929 and received orders to transfer to the USS Roper on 20 June 1932 (pp. 110, 156).

    Also, Heinlein attended a performance of the Gnostic Mass at the Parsonage, and saved the program and a paperbound copy of Crowley's Book of the Law "for future reference." (p. 374). (Wikipedia: Liber XV Gnostic Mass.) (Patterson didn't give a date.)

    According to Patterson's Robert A. Heinlein In Dialog With His Century, Hubbard and Jack Parsons met in April 1945, at Heinlein's suggestion. (pp. 339, 345).
  18. SIASL is a book very much in the pudding

    in electric koolaid acid test (no. i have never drunk koolaid with my lsd) the wolfeman menions the presence of SIASL at la honda and the pranksters grokking. several communes formed in the sixties around the book and though grok never made the OED it was common parlance in the hipster movement

    in fact it is a wealthy word for those who seek greater awareness; it stretches the concept of understanding. word clearing diminshes misunderstanding and the not understanding of words and thus lessens the barriers to grokking the materials but though this may help one get to the threshhold you must tep through on your own

    for instance, in 1986 i went to an M's-redsox game at the kingdome sitting in centerfield just to the leftfield side of staightaway. in the fifth or sixth with the M's up a run the hose had runners on first and third and the starter was pulled as marty barrett came to the plate. i grokked not just the situation on the field but the starter in the dugout. if the runner on first scores and seattle never ties he gets the loss even though he left with a lead. i had him in my sights and as the hurler released the ball tone 40 TR-1 at barrett i said "hurt him" (gaargh, i used to be such a sweet guy but i'm an awful narsty schadenfreude prick sometimes) barrett swung and tagged it on a straight line centered dead on my nose. the ball didn't even seem to move but just hang in space and swell in size. then it started first to drift slowly to my right then faster and struck the astroturf in the and skipped to the wall. both runners scored, barrett to third with a triple, seattle never recovered and the poor starter caught the L

    so ya wanna get the marrow of OT stuff ya gotta grok
  19. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    grok may not be in the OED but it is in the webster's and encarta. I guess the OED will include it when Dr. Mahmoud finishes the martian /english dictionary.

    By the way - Wiki asserts it's there. Maybe it is confidential - eyes only?

  20. Leon

    Leon Gold Meritorious Patron

    I thought it came from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, another of Heinlein's books. It's where I first came across it - an excellent book of his written in a style of a sort of futuristic English language. Fascinating. Well worth reading.