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Scientology's End - less wishful thinking please

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by FascinatedNeverIn, Jan 28, 2014.

  1. FascinatedNeverIn

    FascinatedNeverIn Patron with Honors


    After lurking here for quite a while, I humbly notice in thread after thread the large numbers of posters breathlessly predicting the collapse of the church and its impact: it's all crashing down, they'll go bust, Miscavige will run, Miscavige won't run, there will be a coup, mass suicides, armed last-stands, the media will go to town, the world will learn of the atrocities, Governments will lock them all up, Monique is making history, ...

    It's generally a frenzy of exasperation and wishful-thinking filling the information void. It is difficult to separate those people with valid info from those who are longing for their fantasy to be true.

    As a casual observer, it's all seems a bit over-the-top, especially as the cult still has hundreds of brain-washed people believing the ramblings of Hubbard is their salvation. Belief is extremely powerful and often clung to tightly without any reason, flying fully in the face of facts.

    If Miscavige ran to Nicaragua tomorrow, hundreds of people would defend and follow. Thousands would believe it was the next step in some crusade. It is better to be in the group than wrong. Look at how they believed the tosh about Ron 'leaving his body behind to research elsewhere'. They applauded the notion with no evidence that he'd even died, let alone gone anywhere. Likewise there's no description of which pustule on his backside he had pulled the 75 million years from, or evidence that past lives even exist. Same with Creationists, who blindly follow the writings and 'doings' of Bronze Age con men and magicians and reject any competing information built on sound testing.

    I, of course, am exasperated like others to see the harm that it brings its adherents, but we should remember that Scientology is a tiny, tiny thing in a big, big world. It is a minor self-help subject in a world with famine and wars and pandemics and disasters. More people buy a 10th-rate self-published e-book about sexy rainbow dragons (I assume) than call themselves Scientologists. More people once read the relationship book 'Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus' than possibly have even heard of Hubbard.

    If Monique Rathbun was deposing the Catholic Pope or the head of the Russian Orthodox church or even a prominent television evangelist in the US, world media would almost certainly be jockeying for position in the court room with highly-paid analysts back in the studio to pick over the details. That we rely on Tony and Mark and Scott and Mike and ESMB members to relay news is a big clue to how much Scientology is a non-event.

    A digression...

    If there really was a planet-wide demand for the 'cure' that auditing supposedly gives, the world would probably be in such a poor state that it wouldn't function. Most people exist and fix problems without any help outside their family. Talking to your mum about your credit card bill will likely do more for you than paying someone sitting in front of a 'religious artifact'. A bit of sympathy, tea, biscuits and maybe a small loan for a month gets the job done.
    It seems to me that those who find themselves caught up in the 'glamour' of the Sci community are looking for something they lack. They are trying to fix a hole; they want to belong. I can't locate in Scientology anything that offers more than talking things over honestly with friends and family.

    Most people on Earth are just trying to survive. They don't have the time to sit in a building and have a nice chat about so-called past lives and obsess over the policies (totalitarian rules) and writings of a mad old fuck. Billions of people don't have time to navel-gaze about confronting and understanding the twisted language of some fictional bollocks written in a book, even if they could read. And they certainly don't have the time to write on the internet about how they worked out it's all bollocks! ;)

    Scientology, in its lofty talk about Universes and galaxies given in air-conditioned tents, seems to forget the existence of Mr Patel, whose daughter just died of cholera, or a Ghanaian orphan watching his mother die of AIDS.

    Unless living standards are raised to the point where everyone has abundant food and leisure time (i.e. a majority middle-class), Scientology or any similar self-help group will fail in its aims of 'clearing the planet'; and, if that becomes reality, with 7 billion people, the Earth will probably be exhausted of its resources anyway, sliding back into war and poverty. How a religion purely for 'the able' can hope to exist in reality, where the basis of economics means that some people must have less than others, is something I've never seen asked or answered.

    Back on course...

    The Syrian civil war is important - it is affecting millions of people. Scientology is affecting perhaps 25,000 middle-class robots, and it is, thankfully, dying. I know lots of people who have never heard of Scientology, and don't give a toss about it. They are trying to feed their family. Hubbard is not important and the world won't change when his unscientific twattery finally departs. It will only change for a few that have mired themselves in the hype.

    The people who know the details are the ones on the inside with information, not speculation. To hasten the demise it needs these people to act and start supplying information and documents that cannot be denied, and class-action suits to generate media interest. The world will just keep turning in the meantime, oblivious.

    Anyway, I've written enough. I hope I don't come across badly.

  2. He-man

    He-man Hero extraordinary

    Dreamers got to dream! I have my wishes for the future so does many other, I'd say 99.99% of all the people who has never heard of this particular brand of brainwashing has dreams. :)
  3. MissWog

    MissWog Silver Meritorious Patron

    Gotta run out so ill reply later but this is something we can make an impact on..just keeping one more person from joining is all I am after.. Not trying to solve world hunger or war here..just making sure people in my life are aware of the cult and all it's horror!
  4. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    I agree that the end of the Church has been breathlessly predicted since as early as 1995 on alt.religion.scientology. A large number of the posters here spent a lot of time on that forum, and will know of what I speak. For those that don't, that was the first "internet war" that the Church had. As I recall it, the group was started to discuss Scientology, and then Church OSA blundered and tried to close/remove the group, which made news (Wired? I forget) and attracted people from a variety of other places who didn't appreciate Scientology trying to curtail their internet freedoms. Here was the modern protest against Scientology movement started. Anonymous took it up much later, and expanded it, and brought the 4chan and hacker communities into it, and people got really excited, thinking that protest and hacking could bring down the Church. It didn't. People want to believe their own hype.

    Religious Scientologists will continue to exist, as will the Church, for a variety of reasons, but mostly because once people "identify", they have a very hard time stopping identifying, whether that be as a Scientologist, as Anonymous, as a critic, etc.

    It may be possible to bring the Church down over the long haul, but not without a Constitutional Amendment in the US, as our 1st Amendment protects "freedom of religion" here, with no definition of religion or its freedoms.
  5. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Is Scn likely to collapse dramatically within the next five years? Unlikely.

    Then again, take a look at the likely number of active (either on service or staff, or regularly paying money towards something) Scns, and how the numbers seem to be dwindling, compared to the 1990's. Call up your nearest mission, and see if anybody even answers the phone.

    When we start seeing Scn buildings being foreclosed on for non-payment of taxes/bills, we will know we are closer to the end.
  6. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation


    Welcome ... honest straight speak (based on common sense) never comes across badly.
  7. anonomog

    anonomog Gold Meritorious Patron

    I love the predictions and hopes and opinions and flights of fancy being expressed by exes. It makes me think of hope.

    Whatever gave you the idea that a social message board would give you the straight facts? This is a message board not a respected news media site. If you want facts stick to Reuters.

    In 2008 it was very difficult to get media/blog writers to report on Scientology. I got one reply back saying that s/he had experienced strange harassment after doing one article, was glad to get the info but wasn't going to touch it. Now the same sites are reporting and joking about the church relentlessly. We have come a long way.
  8. Knows

    Knows Gold Meritorious Patron

    Great post! Thank you for validating the fact that Scientology is so miniscule and tiny in the World. That is a fact and it is shrinking. No one really knows what state of affairs this cult will end up in for sure, but if we can help destroy it by exposing the truth and save just one life from entering its hellish gates - it is worth it. Due to the magnitude of destruction $cientology can cause to a person, a family, a business, a group - it needs to be destroyed, disabled and buried by telling the truth.

    We are here (most of us) to expose the lies $cientology $ells so that if someone is taking a "peek" or trying to decide if Scientology really is a good Organization - they may read some posts here and reconsider their involvement. It may be a lifeboat (it was for me) for one fully indoctrinated into the "Scientology think" and needed to find out once and for all what this Organization had been up to for the past 60 years. It was not pretty and this information helped me jump ship.

    We hope it will help others in doubt jump ship.

    Scientology is very dangerous, but only to those still in under its "spell".
  9. FascinatedNeverIn

    FascinatedNeverIn Patron with Honors

    I was prompted to post by becoming more aware that my fascination with this train wreck was not in any way felt by anyone I know. It's miniscule. Obviously, if I brought up some tit bit learned from Tony or Mike in conversation I'd have to qualify it by explaining I'm not actually a believer - just an observer. I felt myself giving much more importance to, for instance, the Super Power opening than it deserved.

    I'm sure everyone on here can imagine feeling awkward telling their girlfriend "there's this big building being opened in America by some bloke who beats people up, and it's so funny there's hardly anyone there... and ... and the helicopter... it's... it's... "

    "ok, I'll get the drinks in..."

    She doesn't care. Miscavige, after all, sounds like a poor-quality Russian car made in the 70s and ridiculed by Lada drivers. Scientologists are just weirdos to the majority of normal people, if they've heard of them at all.
  10. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    If the shady IRS deal had not occurred in 1993, Scientology Inc. would have been in serious trouble. Prior to the shady deal, Scientology Inc. owed more in taxes and penalties than it had assets. That shady deal could be reversed, and it would not require changing the constitution. By the way, the IRS can not decide what is or is not a religion. That's slight of hand. Trickery, manipulation, and subtle and not so subtle coercion, have served Scientology Inc. well.

    Scientology works
  11. Chris Shelton

    Chris Shelton Patron with Honors

    The OP is a fair enough assessment of Scientology at present, but not how it's always been. Recall in the 80s that general public name recognition of Dianetics went from something like 10% up to 90% due to the work of Jeffrey Hawkins and the CMU dissemination campaigns that were so popular back then. With Miscavige's interview on Nightline and the IRS tax recognition in the early 90s, Dianetics and Scientology were actually becoming more acceptable and even somewhat mainstream in certain circles. Scn celebrities like John Travola and Kirstie Alley were even popular back then and listened to by the general public. In other words, the 80s and early 90s were a bit of a PR hey day and there were positive thoughts and feelings about Scientology back then. It may have been an unknown to most people, but it was not a negative and at least the subject itself had some recognition.

    Due to the persistent, un-tiring efforts of a few people on the Internet and in live demonstrations and in court, such as Gerry Armstrong, Jon Atack, Jesse Prince, Arnie Lerma, word about the Church's human rights abuses and corruption kept getting out. With the rise of the Internet, OSA could no longer control the flow of information and the ex's and critics continued to go go go at it. People like Tory Magoo joined in and youtube channels started.

    And, of course, Miscavige flushed all the good will and PR down the toilet with his sociopathic policies and behavior behind the scenes, destroying whatever workability or fun there was in Scientology and making it openly a 100% monkey-making operation. This had, of course, started years earlier with Hubbard (who was definitely in it for the money) but Hubbard was much better at it, was better able to control the flow of information and was better able to distract the parishioners with "new tech releases" every so often.

    When Anonymous came on the scene, they had the collected works of all the Scientology ex's and critics to use as fodder for their cannons and they blew it all up big-time and put the spotlight of really bad press on Scientology, which pretty much flat-lined the expiring subject there on the operating table. But Anonymous would not have been anywhere near as effective in delivering those truths if it hadn't been for the earlier voluminous work done by all the earlier ex's and critics.

    The OP seems to be making the point that why is anyone on this board or anywhere else bothering with such a piss-ant, insignificant cult that has no real effect on the world at large? My answer to that is:

    (1) if the work by the ex's and critics above had never happened, the Church would not now be an exposed, dying creature - so thank god for them!;

    (2) there is an extremely cathartic effect in speaking out, even if just on an internet chat forum, for those who used to be in and had their communication and lives suppressed for so many years - it really does help to get it all out and be acknowledged by others who have been in the same boat;

    (3) now that it is dying - and it really is dead and just doesn't know it yet - it's fun to watch it go down for the count. And some of us still secretly harbor the belief that maybe, just maybe, we can reconnect some day with lost family and friends and significant others, so we keep track of what is going on.

    Those are my two cents.
  12. Sidney18511

    Sidney18511 Patron with Honors

    To the OP...welcome, and thank you for your thoughts. I myself am also a never-in, but have been following this evil organization for years. I have a soft spot in my heart for the posters that I "know" that have been harmed by the COS.

    You are correct when you say that Scientology is a tiny, tiny thing in a big wide world but to the people that have been hurt it wasn't tiny. It is devastatingly big and blew a hold through their hearts and their lives.

    So I applaud with them when they peek into the future and visualize the end of this horrible organization and I imagine it too. And I want this for them. Whether or not Scientology crashes and burns spectacularly or they chug along living off their billion dollar bank account, we will see.

    But if one person looks online and decides not to venture into a Scientology Org or a mission after reading this message board or any of the other critics sites, it is oh so worth it.
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  13. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    That would be interesting, but I think my point is still valid. Even if the current corporate church went down, a new one would be created by the faithful to follow LRH policy, most likely, perhaps even by some of the same people who created RTC. Nothing could be done to stop that, really, even if the old corporate entity owed money, the new one would not, any more than Christianity would be ended if the Children of God were destroyed. It would be a victory over this incarnation of the Church, but without a change to the amendment, nothing stops the next Church of Reformed Scientology to start. Certainly, RTC's death would be entertaining, and the current Church of Scientology would be destroyed, but you can't kill an idea. I would grant that without their current money and corporate structure, they would be unable to do the harm to people that they are currently doing, though.
  14. FascinatedNeverIn

    FascinatedNeverIn Patron with Honors

    Hi chap (or chapess),

    My point was about the fevered imaginations of the end of the cult.

    I understand why people comment on these boards and the various blogs. It was just a teeny bit tiresome looking at the cult hype about its expansion on official posters and then coming in here and seeing equal and opposite hype of its contraction. It sometimes goes a little far and I wanted to make the point that it isn't dead and it probably won't be for the foreseeable future.

    I agree that efforts should be made to deride, close and expose the organisation and its odious tenets, and help victims where possible. Much progress seems to have been done and I fully applaud it. People should bother. People should fight. I am aware I have done nothing in this regard.

    My point is let's not pretend the world is hanging on whether Miscavige gets his comeuppance, or that some Judgement Day is just over the horizon.
  15. FascinatedNeverIn

    FascinatedNeverIn Patron with Honors

    I fully agree. Even if Miscavige is deposed or the entire pack of cards come falling down, there will be hundreds of people who will not face their own stupidity and turn inwards. And they will feel even more embattled because several splinter sects of Scientology will compete to be the Truth. Hopefully, in that competition, each will rake over the real facts and discover their ideology is built on the shifting sands of a paranoid mind.

    Imagine what the people who have spent a decade in the Hole will do. They're not going to change easily. Their journey out will be long.
  16. MrNobody

    MrNobody Who needs merits?

    In my opinion and without any wishful thinking involved: The cult will stay for many decades to come. It may or may not shrink more than it already does, Miscavige may or may not retire to Bulgravia, heaps of splinter groups may or may not spring up, but, in the grand scheme of things, nothing will change.

    Here's my reasoning for that conclusion:

    - Demands for refunds/repayments/compensation from gazillions of dissatisfied members and former members and/or their families from all over the world.

    - Unpayed bills from all the various cult-entities, front groups and whatnot from all over the world.

    - Heaps of real estate and other assets to liquidate from all over the world.

    - ... and so on and so forth... :biggrin:

    Seriously, how would one seize/liquidate the billions of dollars in various offshore accounts without provoking a world-wide economy crisis and without quite a few banks going belly-up?

    How would one liquidate all the buildings without creating a world-wide real-estate-desaster?

    And then, in the countries which gave the cult "religious status", who wants to be the major politician who opens that enormous can of worms?

    The cult has become an economical and political issue decades ago and unless someone willing and able comes along to "handle" and dissolve this international mess, it'll stay that way.

    Jus' my 0.02 :coolwink:

    Oh, and where did I put my manners again? :confused2:

    :welcome: FascinatedNeverIn
  17. La La Lou Lou

    La La Lou Lou Crusader

    Many of us are very used to hype and exaggeration, the church bigs up it's millions of members and we exaggerate how small the member of the churches tiny but evil leader is. The world generally doesn't give a monkeys doo dah about the cult, it's just useful every now and then for comedians to throw in a comment about Xenu, it gets laughs, people don't sit around talking about it, but they do know it's heifer bollocks bonkers, and so do audiences. You are right that effort should be spent on real things, saving the rainforests, stopping the trade in weapons and handling the economy, and that that would make an impact on the planet and it's people, far more so than my posts ever would. I'm just a bit tired after a few dedicated decades of planet clearing that did nothing to help anyone despite my good intentions. Oh and welcome!
  18. Bea Kiddo

    Bea Kiddo Crusader

    32 years in, as a born in (that is me). Ten years healing from it.

    And a mother who is still in and totally disconnected from all of her family.

    I spent 10 years after I left hoping one day she might wake up. Instead she has slipped further and further away to the point of disconnecting from everyone in her family, not just me.

    The grip Scn has on it's members is completely cult-like.

    I finally came to terms last month that she will never ever wake up and get out. And I let her go. I have to. I have to get on with my life. Though it sounds cold, it is really refreshing and I have never felt better.

    Even when she was in my life, when I was in Scn, she was never really a mother. She was another Sea Org member and I was a thetan (spirit) in a child body, to be treated like an adult.


    And who wants a world full of people like that?

    (I only wrote this here to give you an example of why this message board, and why people hope to bring it down. Scn will never be taken down. But how it is going now, it will never take off either).

    And WELCOME TO THE BOARD, FascinatedNeverIn!!!! :coolwink::coolwink::coolwink:
  19. FascinatedNeverIn

    FascinatedNeverIn Patron with Honors

    Maybe this is going to sound stupid and naive, but has anyone (or a group of disconnectees) ever put free/paid ads in any Clearwater/ LA newspapers to embarrass the Church? Something like:


    Don't let the Church of Scientology pressure you to break up our family. What religion does this?

    Please choose our family over bankruptcy and an eternity they can't prove.

    If done regularly, one thinks they may be ejected as a liability or the local populace would gradually learn of disconnection through a heartfelt appeal.

    I would also think a full or half page advert in a major national newspaper/ magazine paid for by a syndicate of families could be a huge embarrassment for the church.
  20. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Is that supposed to be news? Scientology Inc. has always been a weird little cult. Unfortunately, it's affected many thousands of people, and some of them seek help and information and, sometimes, communication.

    You're miniscule. Does your life matter?

    I bet you feel that it does, and you're right to feel that way.

    Funny how that works out. :)