ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

SP Times Round 2 - Moar speaking out!

Discussion in 'Tampa Bay Times/SP Times' started by Div6, Aug 2, 2009.

  1. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    But you see, it's getting more and more extreme what someone would have to claim to an active Scientologist:
    • "Hubbard didn't mean what he wrote"
    • "Fair Game was never cancelled"
    • "GO was never dismantled".
    It's doubtful that a normal current Scientologist has ever heard of "GO" or of "Fair Game":
    "What the heck is GO? What the heck is Fair Game? You are claiming that they were never abolished yet I have never heard of wearing grey rags".

    You would have completely lost credibility by then.

    It is facto cancelled because it's nowhere to be found in an org and noone has to wear rags.

    That the Church viciously attacks its outspoken "enemies" is not "Fair Game" but "vicious attacks against enemies". Whatever they base the viciousness on, it's not the Fair Game policy.
  2. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    Free speech is limited in every country of the world. The US has pretty good free speech attitudes, yet pornography, lies, harassments and disruptive speeches are forbidden/restricted nevertheless.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2009
  3. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Google is every one's friend, even Scientologists, unless they're behind a barbed wire fence or locked in a room (and probably not wearing a 'grey rag'.)

    By the way, I never mentioned anything about 'grey rags', etc.

    You write, "[Fair Game] is facto cancelled because it is no where to be found in an Org, and none have to wear rags." Are there "SPs" wandering around in Orgs? Not usually. "Rags?" I never mentioned "rags."

    Hubbard's words aren't going away, and the Internet is here to stay.

    People who are reading ESMB know about these things. Or soon will. Do you?
  4. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    "Oh, now I even have to look up Wikipedia for some ancient court cases?"

    Harassing of outspoken critics is not Fair Game. Harassing of outspoken critics is trying to silence outpoken critics. Has nothing to do with an Ethics Condition.

    BECAUSE THE HCOPL which introduced "dirty grey rags" and "Fair Game" IS CANCELLED. It was the same HCOPL. It's CANCELLED. Stop beating a dead horse. No normal Scientologist has ever heard of Fair Game or dirty grey rags.

    The grey rags are for people in Liability. Liability is a rather normal/frequent Ethics condition, and yet you won't see anyone with rags. BECAUSE THE POLICY IS CANCELLED.
  5. Zinjifar

    Zinjifar Silver Meritorious Sponsor

    'Fair Game' was never an 'Ethics Condition'; it's one part of the *handling* of an ethics condition, however that handling can and was and still *is* applied to numerous activities by the 'Church'.

    Similarly, a 'dirty grey rag' was one handling for an Ethics Condition, but, you can also use a dirty grey rag to wipe off a counter-top.

    And, the dirty grey rag and mentioning of the *term* Fair Game were canceled because they were seen as out-PR, although the *activity* formerly called Fair Game not only continues, but is specifically mandated to continue in the very order that canceled the use of the *term*.

  6. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    You missed the point. You are NOT allowed to talk freely in the CoS, to think freely, to exercise your rights as a citizen. Just go ask DM how many times he hit Rinder, and see what happens.
  7. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Knn posted a link to a Michel Snoeck site. Isn't Michel Snoeck the Scientology cult apologist known as 'Roadrunner'?
  8. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    The Ethics condition "Liability" and the Ethics Condition "Enemy" still exist of course. But Rag'ing isn't applied anymore and Fair Gaming isn't either.

    Yes, you can say to a current Scientologist that "outspoken critics are harassed". This _IS_ believable. But to state "What is Greatness is a PR stunt because the Fair Game HCOPL was never cancelled" is not only completely unreal but it's also WRONG.

    Thus again: I wouldn't argue by quoting something. Or by trying to interpret what LRH wrote. Instead refer them to FOOTBULLETS (Youtube, e.g. Bunker) or Court Affidavits or the ex-Execs interviews (Ruthbun etc).
  9. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    I think he is roadrunner.
  10. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    Well, historically, Fair Game was part of the formula for an "Ethics condition".

    (Applies both Orgs and Sea Org)

    LIABILITY — Suspension of Pay and a dirty grey rag on left arm and day and night confinement to org premises.
    TREASON — Suspension of pay and deprivation of all uniforms and insignia, a black mark on left cheek and confinement on org premises or dismissal from post and debarment from premises.
    DOUBT — Debarment from premises. Not to be employed. Payment of fine amounting to any sum may have cost org. Not to be trained or processed. Not to be communicated or argued with.
    ENEMY — SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."

    Notice that in this early iteration of "lower conditions" that there was no "formula" by which one could "work out" of the condition. If you were an enemy, then that was it.

    The PL that canceled the use of the phrase "Fair Game" did not cancel the the penalties for Lower Conditions. See
  11. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

  12. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    Rinder WAS allowed to talk freely, but he had to bear the consequences.

    Every freedom is restricted by penalties. Thus any positive statement ("a citizen is free") is worthless when you don't also know the exceptions (murder, theft etc).

    Just like in the USA: Free speech yes, pornography restricted. Or did you think that LRH allowed pornography in the orgs, just because he allowed to "speak freely"? Of course not, thus LRH's statement has to be read in context with his restrictions ("Free speech yes, but those who speak freely about their plan to quit they staff contract are to be punished").

    Nothing special, typical for laws.
  13. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

  14. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Just for the record, the original Fair Game Law was from March 1965:
  15. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    Yes, probably around that time Hubbard started to seriously shift into Darkness Land. Sea Org, Body Thetans, Ethics stem all from that time. Shows probably how GPM processing can mess you up.
  16. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    How about Shelly Miscavige?

    How about open discussion of DM's suppressive characteristics?

    How about true and honest reporting of actual stats?

    How do you reconcile the "Creed" with the RPF?

    The "Creed" is a sham document. "PR" ranks above "honesty".
  17. Div6

    Div6 Crusader

    Or maybe he was just grossly OUT-Ethics, committing overt acts in present time, and PTS as a jay bird.
  18. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Oh please. Now you're switching to, "Ron went insane for our aberrations," poor poor Ron, he loved us so, and he tried so hard. Sniff sniff."

    Read the excerpt from the August 1938 "Skipper letter" (written just after the writing of 'Excalibur') where he described his "real goal."

    Read his 1946/47 'Affirmations'.

    Read his bizarre letters to the FBI from the early 1950s.

    Ron was "messed up" from day one. He had a long term self aggrandizing hidden agenda. Deal with it.
  19. knn

    knn Patron Meritorious

    I wouldn't call it sham, but it's worthless when you want to claim any rights in an org.

    Miscavige doesn't lie about the stats. The stats are true. But he zooms in everytime. Obviously this trick is so successful that it still works after 20 years despite empty orgs:
  20. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    I've always been inclined to think he meant what he said in the Creed,
    it dates from 1954. However the references to God are atypical.

    For anyone still in COS one can always cite the creed over policy as
    creed is defined as "fundamental belief ". Might get one into more trouble though.