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The smoking Gun

Discussion in 'Important documents' started by WildKat, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. no, i don't think so. it's not the koolaid. it's the firsthand knowledge that the tech can and often does produce phenomenal results combined with the knowledge that there are in fact vested interests whose balance sheets can be seriously affected by widespread application of the basics of training and auditing

    there certainly is koolaid in CoS


    so too is there wine
  2. sallydannce

    sallydannce Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yep. I think I wrote this some place else about the broader implications of this case. The gag orders that the cult uses are dodgy - at best. At worst they are allow protection of criminality. They supposedly opt an individual out of their access to - right to - domestic laws process and protection. Dangerous stuff. It is about time the authorities woke up and challenged that.

    This to me is one of the ways the cult has managed to survive all these years. They have used clever manipulation of domestic laws to "opt" themselves out of due process. Religious cloaking is a classic example of this.

    Debbie Cook is but one small speck in a much larger picture. She may not agree with me on that point. She's probably feeling rather "pivotal" at this time. Ultimately I see Cook as a pawn in a much bigger game. For both sides.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
  3. Beacon

    Beacon Patron

    Looking forward for a second, I can't see the church's main lawsuit (on the NDA) going forward. The church disputes Debbie's testimony about the abuse, coercion and duress. If the suit sees the inside of a courtroom, duress will her primary defense. If the church asserts that Debbie is lying, then the defense can bring in loads of witnesses:

    1) Marty and Mike
    2) Amy Scobee and Mat Pesch,
    3) Claire and Mark Headly
    4) Jeff Hawkins
    5) Mark Fisher
    6) Steve Hall
    7) Gary Morehead
    8) Tom DeVocht
    9) John Brousseau, etc.

    Since these folks would be compelled to testify in court, that they are under their own NDA's won't matter.

    What's the church going to say - it's a conspiracy?

    Unfortunately for Miscavige, he cannot affirmatively prove that there was no abuse. It's literally the "when did you stop beating your wife" scenario . . . .

    The court may also compel those inside at INT to testify:

    1) Heber
    2) Guilliuame (spelling?)
    3) Mark Yager
    4) The "inch" wives, etc.

    and, eventually - David Miscavige.

    They may all invoke the Fifth Amendment, but then they're still screwed.

    No ffffing way this goes back into court, except for a summary judgement motion, and the church will get beat down on that one big time.

  4. ChurchOfCylontology

    ChurchOfCylontology Patron with Honors

    And as long as the raging alcoholics still find benefit from the wine then they ask not to be held accountable for the consequences of their actions.
  5. olska

    olska Silver Meritorious Patron

    At this point, Debbie is still bound by the original NDA, and in her testimony claimed she didn't think she had violated it.

    That means that, outside a court of law, where she is compelled by law to testify,
    she is still legally limited in what she can say about the Co$ by whatever was in the NDA.

    The Co$ sees that pursing the lawsuit in court, in which they accuse her of violating the NDA and seek damages of $300,000 or more, has already and can in the future cause them great harm because her testimony is ordered by the court under penalty of contempt of court -- they give her the pulpit from which to speak.

    Also, other witnesses can be called to support her defense of herself, which will no doubt turn on whether or not the NDA is valid, and the box nested inside the Pandora's box aready opened will then be opened and god only knows what's inside it!

    She did not initiate this lawsuit and her court appearance -- they did.

    If they drop it now, she would have to initiate a suit claiming that the NDA was invalid because she signed it under duress.

    Seeing as how she is determined to protect the good name of Hubbard and Scientology, if the Co$ just dropped their suit, do you think she would initiate a suit against them? Keep in mind that bringing a lawsuit against scientology is, in their "justice" (puke) system, a High Crime...

    Seeing as how it would tarnish the name of her religion, do you think she actually wants to disclose all the "buried bodies" and other stuff she knows about?

    If not, then why would she want to prove the original NDA invalid?

    In their view, they've already "ruined" her by excommunicating her. She can no longer communicate about anything to anyone still "in good standing." They'll run their usual black PR campaign on the faithful.

    So what will happen?

    will they just drop the suit and keep the original NDA in place and leave her hanging there while they mount a huge black PR campaign to discredit anything she's already said?

  6. ChurchOfCylontology

    ChurchOfCylontology Patron with Honors

    Two thoughts here -

    1. Her impromptu press conference on Friday was also in violation of the NDA and another cause of action, if the Cult wants to add another monetary charge to the suit. If the court ruled that the TRO was invalid due to duress, that would have ruined their entire lawsuit so they dropped the TRO.

    2. We've already seen that Debbie wants to go away quietly and was willing to illegally bargain for that privilege. Chances are high that if the lawsuit is dropped and nothing further comes from these events (such as a counter suit) then we know that Debbie won't do the just, legal, and morally right thing. She's already said that in writing.
  7. olska

    olska Silver Meritorious Patron

    Not sure that (bolded) is true. In the interview, she talked about HER TESTIMONY -- she didn't say all that much about the Co$, or scientology, and what she did say was that she was a dedicated scientologist concerned about the well being of her religion.

    We don't know what was in the NDA -- we know it was many pages long. We also know that the Church thought police come down hard on anyone who has the slightest odor of disaffection.

    But, there may be enough "open to interpretation" points that technically she hasn't actually violated the NDA, ever, even in the interview.

    Might be fun to go over her interview and analyze exactly what she did say, with this in mind... but I'm not gonna do it, I've spent tooooo long going over this bs already! need a shower! :omg:
  8. Jquepublic

    Jquepublic Silver Meritorious Patron

  9. ChurchOfCylontology

    ChurchOfCylontology Patron with Honors

    The NDA is posted at this link:

    In the NDA, Debbie signed away her right to disclose any information about the Cult. Yes she mostly referred to her testimony but she is also not supposed to publicly disclose ANYTHING about the cult. They could make an argument that she revealed more than just her testimony. It may not be a strong argument but that's never stopped them before.

    Their entire case is not strong and the dumb bravado the lawyers gave about a summary judgment tells me that they know it.
  10. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    The fact that she did talk to some reporters after the hearing was surprising to me, particularly so with her attorney sitting in on the conference.

    The lack of concern for the NDA is telling.
  11. Petey C

    Petey C Silver Meritorious Patron

    That is not how you stop a dog from barking. Or, maybe that's the Sea Org way.
  12. BunnySkull

    BunnySkull Silver Meritorious Patron

    As for who Tony was honored to share the room with - Tobin and Childs is a legit guess and could be correct but why he would be reluctant to name them I'm not sure. He already gave admiring praise to the vets when in court with them.

    The idea its a high ranking celeb is ridiculous - no celeb is going to appear with Marty in public or in an area so crawling with media and OSA trying to monitor M&M every move.

    My guess, other than tobin et al., is Debbie and Wayne. He wouldn't want to publicize the fact he shared personal conversations and time with them because the commenters would go batshit wanting more info. Debbie & Wayne breaking bread with reporters would make the OSA spies shit bricks - and I'm sure that would be icing on top of a double chocolate devil foods cake of a day.

    So I'm going with Wayne, Debbie and possibly a few others still under the radar, but if they are under the radar the last place they should be at is San Anton hanging with that crowd.
  13. olska

    olska Silver Meritorious Patron

    I'm sure you're correct no celebrities would be caught near this unfolding event. Tony's dinner companions could also be some of the others who have escaped and spoken out, such as Jefferson Hawkins, Tom DeVocht. Maybe he'll eventually tell us.

    Meanwhile, I like the idea of it being Debbie and Wayne just because that would totally f*** with the cult's spies and make DM crazy.

    As to whether or not Debbie's interview violated the NDA, I really have no idea, all my comments on it are purely guesses and speculation. I guess we'll find out IF and WHEN it goes to trial.
  14. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    What she is referring to is the speculation - is it more jucy data on Lisa's death? People in the hole? Some other crime we know not of? That is what I was referring to.
  15. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Welcome to American style politics - where you vote for the lesser of two [STRIKE]weevils[/STRIKE] evils

  16. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Just wait for the next Freedumb Mag - That is exactly what Dear Leader will say.:happydance:

  17. ChurchOfCylontology

    ChurchOfCylontology Patron with Honors

    Unfortunately this isn't a vote and this isn't American politics. This is a woman whose moral compass is so off that she needs someone to tell her that what she proposed, in writing, was a crime. Conspiracy to a crime, covering up crimes, and blackmail are all situations that could land her behind bars.

    I'm saddened that no one else seems to see this as a big problem. I'm saddened that she probably won't go to law enforcement on her own. I realize that her going to the FBI may prove to be futile, but we won't know that until she actually does that.

    Debbie Cook needs to prove herself to be the 'most ethical' person she probably still thinks she is because right now she's just another clam that harmed other people and won't admit it. She just got tired of the torture and she's only out for herself right now.
  18. Mick Wenlock

    Mick Wenlock Admin Emeritus (retired)

    well I have been commenting on it - but apparently I do not understand gradients...
  19. Man de la Mancha

    Man de la Mancha Patron with Honors

    I believe it's because a lot of people are hoping she'll give them a new person to worship. Isn't it strange that all the so-called leaders of the "Indie" movement are too cowardly to address anything but their own relatively petty problems? While it's not in anyone's interest (except maybe Scn Inc) for Debbie Cook to go to jail, her refusal to speak out against slavery and child neglect is the antithesis of leadership.

    Also, everyone needs to keep in mind that these "leaders" have been running covert ops for a long time, and there just may be a method to their madness. I sure hope so.
  20. Robin Scott

    Robin Scott Patron

    Historically, Miscavige's final solution is to buy people off.
    A woman who has acepted $50,000 previously might well accept, say, $5 million.
    Sometimes I think Marty and Mike are simply trying to drive up the value of their own final solution.
    After all, people aren't going to continue to want the OT levels for ever, now that we've told everybody they're crap.
    Everyone has their price - and he has a lot of money!
    Love & Peace, Robin & Adrienne