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Truth about Scientology website

Discussion in 'Completions Lists' started by mow, May 15, 2008.

  1. clamicide

    clamicide Gold Meritorious Patron

    I Don't Get It....

    I missed this thread when it started, but it hit a nerve with me. When I first started healing from all the cult crud, I froze when I discovered this list existed. I was just back out in the 'real' world, looking for work, and had been informed that local employers routinely searched all aplicants online. Whenever I had gone out and had seen the evil yellow tent, inevitably rude jokes and ridicule of how insane or stupid someone had to be to fall for that s*** would be shouted out. Colbert makes a crack about Xenu--people laugh. Last night I caught Dana Carvey on HBO and he did a whole spiel detailing the Xenu bit and giving a description of exactly how weird a ritual a religion would have to be to be crazier than Scio. The word is getting out about the cult--but folks think people were nuts to get pulled into that bs. I'm a billion times better now and have no problem chatting and telling the truth about the evil--but I'm happier than hell that an employer won't find me there. I prefer to deal with it on my own terms. Potential employers don't get to know I was a victim of My surviving the cult makes me less naive and I can spot bs better than most now--but, that's not the impression someone would get by seeing me as an ex-cultie and dismissing me beforehand.

    Now, as far as the statistic accuracy of the data base, I seriously queston it, so I don't think I fully understand its purpose. I was a trained auditor, yet my only listing was being clear under my (very common) maiden name. Cursory checks of people I knew from different orgs failed to show them at all. If the lists are only being taken from the upper organization lists, then all the completions listed only in the local organization mags aren't showing up. If the data isn't gathered from all the local organization and mission mags, then there is missing data. Add to that times when staff or funds were down or there was some other reason the mag didn't go out-i don't know how this possibly gives an accurate picture. With CCRDS being done at local orgs during those years covered by the data base, people I know who attested to Clear did not show up. Staff are so busy trying to get stats up that the last thing anyone cares about sometimes is the completion list. I remember a pc in the HGC who was upset because he wasn't showing up on the lists so a special effort was made to make sure he was listed. We were all shocked somone actually read the effing mag.

    Now, though it might sound all rosy for the cult-the list of names also covers another dirty secret that makes the picture cloudy. In the giant heydays of massive Clear attests...years later, oodles of those folks were found to be NOT CLEAR. Mags don't print a retraction of the state. I'm guessing that this is one reason Clear numbers aren't showing up. Another 'only in Scientology' wrinkle is that the majority of cycles I ran into attesting to Clear, the person was a 'past-life', basically a lot of these 'new' Clears being produced aren't new-but *cough* 'recycled'. (I gotta agree with Beghe on the whole Clear thing).
  2. Pooks


    The stat information is definitely limited. We are not looking for total numbers of Scientology completions around the world. That would be nice but not very difficult to get. We do it by Org (or per Magazine)

    For instance we had 10 years worth of Stats from AOLA. While management was bragging about unprecedented expansion in making OT's, the stats for AOLA were going down

    Here's 28 years of Flag completions graphed.

    Here's 28 years of Flag Processing Completions-- Scroll down and look at all of them. They're interesting.

    There is absolutely no information on internal stats on Scn. The only way I can figure out how to view their expansion or contraction is to use their own completion lists and graph them. As you can see, it needs as update.
  3. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    Fine. Then use the stats without the full names. "J. T." instead of "John Thomas". Use the "public figure" versus "private individual" test - for example, Tom Cruise is a public individual promoting the church broadly in the media, thus named. Expose criminals, sure.

    This is a witch hunt as it is currently presented.
  4. Pooks


    Sorry, I don't agree. It's not a witch at all. It's data. It's an effective tool in exposing the cult.

    Please read my original post above to see why the lists were made and posted. It has many purposes and witch hunt is not one of them.

    The names will stay.
  5. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    Of course they will. And of course you do not agree. However, the effect created is that of a witch hunt. A list of Jews. A list of people who did not expect or agree that their names would appear to their future employers or any one searching in something which didn't exist when those very limited circulation mags were issued. . So regardless of your justifications, it operates as a witch hunt.

    You do personal harm to each person listed by their full name. Worse than that you have been made aware of that harm, and you continue to commit it, despite there being reasonable solutions to preventing that harm.

    I'm sure you feel perfectly justified. Doesn't change the effect.
  6. Pooks


    NO U
  7. DCAnon

    DCAnon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Well, as soon as someone is harmed by that list, let us know. A membership list isn't illegal, discrimination is. If someone is illegally discriminating against you, take them to court. Until someone rounds up Scientologists and shoves millions of them into ovens, don't you dare compare yourselves to Jews in the Holocaust.
  8. klidov

    klidov Silver Meritorious Patron

    ^^I agree with this^^^
  9. byte301

    byte301 Crusader

    So do I.

    Today's criminals can be tomorrow exes. And in order to make people come to their senses and leave the cult or inform people who they are really dealing with we need that list.

    To out front groups and scilons trying to infiltrate organizations, school boards, city administrations, and even governments, by hiding the fact they are scientologists, we need that list.
  10. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    Just an analogy. Wear it if it fits. I was thinking of the period were Germany labeled peoples, but hadn't yet determined how far to go. Say, 1933. Perhaps even that is too harsh. Lists of Catholics in Protestant England? Again probably too harsh. But. You get the idea.
  11. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    No, you don't.
    You've made good points in the past on this thread. This isn't one of them.
  12. Human Again

    Human Again Silver Meritorious Patron

    By the time you have to go to court it is because you have already been harmed.

    If someone had stopped the jews being discriminated against BEFORE the holocaust, perhaps it wouldn't have been able to happened.

    You are taking a very hard stand on the earlier poster's right to think and speak - in comparing themselves to the Jews in the Holocaust. I don't think Scientologists, ex or otherwise, are about to be rounded up and decimated, however I am sure if you cool down and think about it, telling someone "don't you dare!" is really extreme. It is human nature to look at extreme examples and compare one's own situation to those. It takes nothing from the horror or the compassion we have for those who suffered and still suffer from the effects of that inhumane attempt at genocide.
  13. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    So you are labeling completions as criminals? Casting suspicion on each and every public person listed, as criminals? Witch hunt, nothing less, done with a vindictive intent covered by a specious reason.

    My opinion. I'll tell you though, at least OSA doesn't publicly publish their goldenrod on the internet, where it lives for all time.
  14. DCAnon

    DCAnon Silver Meritorious Patron

    You know who else lists people? The IRS. The Census Bureau. Your PTA. Club memberships. Criminal Records. Your tax info, marriage license, death certificates, and in a lot of cases, your social security number are public record. Records live forever, you can't unring the bell and pretend it never happened because you're embarrassed about it now. I'll bet lots of people wish they could take back things they've done that are common knowledge and public record. Doesn't mean they get to rewrite history. As I said, if the list harms you in some way, then you have a case. List or no list, people aren't allowed to illegally discriminate based on belief. If you're just speculating about things that haven't happened, you're talking out of your ass. And your continued persecution complex comparing yourself to a people who were massacred as being the same as a name on a census list somewhere is way WAY out of line. You need to reevaluate priorities and learned the difference between something you don't like and actual persecution. It's sick to compare your embarrassment at having people know you were a Scientologist, ESPECIALLY SINCE NO ONE HAS DISCRIMINATED AGAINST YOU FOR IT, with millions of people starved, tortured, and murdered in agonizing death camps. :angry:
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2009
  15. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    I think this quote:

    Pretty much sums up the thinking behind insisting on placing the full names of completions on that site.

    I take your point, the analogy was harsh and convenient. And not truly even close.

    However guarding against the "criminals" listed on the completion lists is pretty damned harsh and unfair.
  16. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    Follow the earlier pieces of the thread. There is actual harm done, probably not actionable, but unnecessary and substantive despite that.

    Now that employers routinely search a person's name for derogatory information as a matter of course, this site is detrimental. That wasn't the case even five years ago. It certainly is now. And it's subtle, because that interview you don't get or that call for a second interview that doesn't happen, that's not detectable. But it happens. Employers are first looking for who to say no to, and the Church has no credibility as any kind of a positive.

    I compared the listing of peoples according to a religion to a much much worse incident, also with a list, and from that comparison I got the less severe comparison of completions to "criminals":

    I agree any comparison with the Holocaust wasn't a good one. However, I do think that the reasons given for presenting the list as it is are specious and this quote is closer to the actual underlying intentions.
  17. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    I didn't, actually. I compared the listings, inaccurately. There really isn't any comparison at all. I didn't insist that I had any personal fear of being rounded up, or any personal experience along that line. What I did was indicate that you are labeling people, to their harm, in a similar manner. The degree of harm can't be compared at all.
  18. GreyLensman

    GreyLensman Silver Meritorious Patron

    IRS records aren't listed on the internet.

    Census records aren't listed as far as I am aware with individual names and information. Though I wouldn't put it past the government to sell that data... But they only publish public summary on the internet, not individual responses, and not names.

    PTA, offers the option of NOT being listed on the school websites by name.

    Club memberships - again, if I requested, I can't think of any organization I belong to that wouldn't be willing to remove my name if I asked, from be published on the internet.

    Criminal records aren't published directly on the internet - and only convictions would be public record, after confirmation by a court. I'm pretty sure arrests aren't though they may be published in a newspaper.

    My SS# won't be on the internet and that would most definitely be actionable.
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2009
  19. DCAnon

    DCAnon Silver Meritorious Patron

    I tried to be nice, I really did. It's just like talking to a brick wall. You did something you're embarrassed about and it got put on the internet. Welcome to the 21st century and stop your freaking crying. You're not a special unique little snowflake in that regard. You made the decision to take Scientology courses and I have zero sympathy that the information is now public record. Too bad. You have no right to rewrite history and erase information just because you made a mistake. Start crying again when someone actually discriminates you. In all honesty, your persecution complex makes me sick.
  20. DCAnon

    DCAnon Silver Meritorious Patron

    Yes, yes they are. Guess you just don't know how to look for them.