ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

What was Mary Sue Hubbard's Sea Org rank?

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by ChrisO, Dec 18, 2018.

  1. ChrisO

    ChrisO Patron

    Mary Sue Hubbard was aboard the Sea Org ships during the 1960s and early 1970s, but does anyone know what rank she had? Or indeed if she was a Sea Org member? If she was, would that have made her the only person other than LRH who had authority in both the Guardian's Office and the Sea Org?
  2. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    MSH's rank?


    Persons in that class were the elite of the elite--which is why Mary Sue was bestowed the great honor of being chosen to represent LRH personally (in federal prison).
  3. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    She was the Controller (that was her post title) and may have been the only one with a foot in both camps.

    Warning: Very naughty video below ...

    Clay Pigeon likes this.
  4. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Captain, I seem to recall.

  5. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

  6. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    Yeah, but you'd do well to take some of what he says with a hefty grain pinch of salt.
  7. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    What is a "right shunt?"...or just shunt?

    (in the King's English...) :)
  8. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    But it is SO amusing!
  9. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    CBR was awarded the rank of “Right Arm” (RA), granted the title of Captain and he was 2nd Deputy Commodore (1st deputy was Mary Sue Hubbard).

    Mary Sue in uniform:
    JustSheila likes this.
  10. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    You're not serious asking that are you?
    Leland likes this.
  11. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Whoever wrote/edited that was apparently never in the SO. There are two "statuses" that are independent of each other: rank and post title. Permanent (earned) rank is long-term -- more or less -- while posts come and go. So someone can be awarded the permanent officer rank of Lieutenant (for merit) and subsequently fall from glory and be a long-term dishwasher (not from merit). There is also brevet rank, where the post has an automatic rank associated with it independent of the holder's long-term rank. For example, the CO of a service org like AOSHUK gets an automatic brevet rank of Lieutenant, even if their long-term rating is Chief Petty Officer.

    "Right-arm" is a designation appended to rating/rank meaning something like able to handle the position on a ship. So Captain (R.A.) Bill Robertson meant he was qualified to captain a real ship (in the Sea Org view). Originally the "right arm" designation was superior to the wimpy landlubber "left arm" designation, and I assume this meant wearing lanyards etc on the right arm/shoulder instead of the left side, but the landlubbers didn't like being shown up so wore the lanyards on the right shoulder anyway (see pix of the Dwarf etc).

    There are Flag Orders listing official SO ranks. I don't have any. I don't remember exactly what the top looks like, whether it tops out at Captain or not (..., Midshipman, Warrant Officer, Ensign, Lieutenant, Lt Commander, Commander, Captain). But it seems to me that "Commodore" is a Sea Org post title, not a rank. The Dwarf has only grabbed the rank of Captain, remember.

    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
    F.Bullbait likes this.
  12. F.Bullbait

    F.Bullbait Oh, a wise guy,eh?

    Well, if Blue had the SO experience that I had, it was very lubberly. In LA, I can't recall anyone having a rank other than being an org board senior and few wore uniforms.

    Your description of rank was very educational.

    When I think about it, I did read a manual about SO on the flight to LA after being recruited. Maybe rank was explained there. The expectation in the brochure was all spit and polish, yes sir, no sir, salute everything and so on. When I got there, there was none of that fascist dream, just spit and roaches.
  13. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    MSH was the first to have the post title, “The Guardian” AFAIK (over the GO). I remember issues written by MSH as Guardian. Jane Kember was also made Guardian.

    In the earliest COS org boards I remember studying from the OEC, (in the 60s) MSH was always over Div 1 in some way or other. I believe in one of them she was Supercargo. AFAIK, she was never over the technical aspects. HH or some of the old timers may be able to confirm.
  14. Leland

    Leland Crusader

    Yes, I think I figured it out.

    Just not an American slang expression at all....
  15. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    My last rank was approved by the late Lt Cmdr Wally Burgess. For the most part I considered the Officer Selection Board to be very cliquish giving each other and the same people promotions. I think this is because some people understood and liked to work the promotion system. I don't ever recall CSWing or asking for a promotion but got them nonetheless.

    The problem with brevet rank to my thinking is it serves as a kind of rank inflation and lowers the respect for rank. There were still a fair number of people around who had served on the ships when I was in but as we know Miscavige got rid of most of them in the 80s and LRH was already doing a pretty good job of tossing them under the bus before that.

    I see pictures of these people now laden down with "I was there" ribbons and I have to wonder what they did to get those. In my day I think even in Scientological terms they still meant something but if any real world military person knew what they were for they would think it was a joke.

    I wore my thread bare uniform and cheap plastic shoes with pride regularly but somehow I thought lanyards were always a bit pretentious and I didn't like them flopping about. One time a little old lady stopped me in the market to tell me how her late husband was in the Navy and I was too embarrassed to tell her I was in a pretend Navy resurrected from a long gone rebellion in another part of the galaxy.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
    ThetanExterior and F.Bullbait like this.
  16. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    In the vernacular (in England), a right c**t is a cut above being just an ordinary c**t. See? :biggrin:
  17. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    You can blame trubs for dragging this thread into the gutter, I didn't start it.
  18. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    Woody Allen briefly experimented with scn in the 70's, but soon decided it wasn't for him ...

    Little David likes this.
  19. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    I think Mary Sue was a unique case, being Controller. In my time in the SO, Mary Sue was Mary Sue. She was LRH's wife and de-facto second-in-command of Scientology. This is why she presented a special problem to Miscavige. If, at any time, she had made an announcement that Miscavige had illegitimately seized control of Scientology, then DM would have been out, and it would not have mattered how many lawyers and PI's DM had.
  20. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    It's a good thing this never happened. Just think if a competent leader had risen instead of Miscavige.

    Scientology might've actually grown for real which would've perpetuated the abuse.

    Apparently, plans to assassinate Hitler were scrapped when the allies realized his ineptitude was a blessing in disguise. Same with Miscavige.