Who should be held accountable, who get's a free pass?

[PirateAndBum]

One example among many: Marty and Mike have both admitted that they were part of a "raid" of Pat Breoker's home in order to find OT 9 and 10, and could not find anything. They both admitted that at the time of the raid, the late 80's, they knew LRH had not been working on anything like this - even though he claimed to as far back as the 1970's.

For how many years did they lie and support selling these non-existent OT levels to Scientologists? Did Rinder approve speeches at events and engage in sales pitches selling something to Scientologists he knew did not exist?

We know Miscavige has. It is colossal Jim & Tammy Baker-level fraud.

So why doesn't Rinder turn him in?

Turn him in where?

He's come out and said it. Does he have some super-powers you haven't told us about?

The religion angle makes it all a large messy ball of glop.

Have you filed suit for fraud? Why not?

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

"What if DM got out? What if DM made some sort of blanket apology, got on TV and started exposing the moral crimes of Scientology? Told everyone that he was raised in it and was brainwashed and had no choice. Would he get a pass too? Would we just forgive and forget because he went on Anderson Cooper or wrote an article for The Times and said "yes we did bad things and I'm sorry"? I have a feeling we would, because we are forgiving. We did it with Mike, why not Dave? But don't we want more than that? Would we ever get more than that? Would we ever find out if there are buried bodies? Sexual abuse cover ups? Bribery to police, coroners, judges? Obstruction of justice? Criminal activities."

Miscavige knows perfectly well that he's living high off the hog on the back of "donations" from people who are unaware of the fact and can barely afford it. Even if he got a free pass from a belief system point of view, he must accept culpability for that. And all the abuse (much of it physical) too.

Not only that, what happened to Shelly?

It's easy for me to say that Mike Rinder should get a free pass because I wasn't in deep or long enough for what he did to make any difference to me personally. All the same though, in his case I think he's doing enough good exposing the CofS's chicaneries to offset the harm he's done in the past.

 

[Emma]

It's easy for me to say that Mike Rinder should get a free pass because I wasn't in deep or long enough for what he did to make any difference to me personally. All the same though, in his case I think he's doing enough good exposing the CofS's chicaneries to offset the harm he's done in the past.

I do too, but does that mean he doesn't have to answer direct questions from people who he harmed, or oversaw the harming of for decades?

If the ED of my Org got out and started posting here, and apologised for the harm she caused me or others, I would forgive her. But it sure as hell wouldn't stop me from asking very pointed questions about her history with me, her vindictive behaviour towards me & others, her lies, her overseeing of financial fraud. One example is a particular person who was bilked of his life savings/retirement plan on the promise of one day going Clear. It was a lie. He'd taken lithium and other psych drugs and was NEVER going to be given auditing. They just sold him course after course, meter after meter, book after book, CD series after series, all with the promise that "after you finish this course we'll consider you for auditing". He was a very anxious person just looking to get better. Not only did they defraud him of his money, sell him a bullshit future, they also made sure he wasn't taking the medication that might have helped him. Yeah I'd ask her about that.

I'd also ask her about how she thought it was OK to have 10 and 12 year olds working at the church when they should have been in school. It took a Bryan Seymour episode on Today Tonight to uncover this and shame them in allowing those kids to go back to school.

I'd ask her why she demanded other staff members recruit their kids to staff when both of hers were allowed to remain in wog schools, go onto do university degrees and flourish in life. Why did her kids get a pass?

I have lots of questions. She'd never post here because she wouldn't like my questions, but they are questions I still want answers to.

So Cheryl Wickens, if you are out there and want to join ESMB one day, you will be welcomed and I will forgive you, but you better be ready for some hard questions.

 

[Bill]

I think it is up to the victims of the abuse to forgive or not. Barring that, perhaps criminal charges, conviction and sentencing. I don't think anyone should get a free pass.

Good deeds, before and after Scientology might make up for the abusive, criminal acts, but it all depends on the relative balance.

But I think that the bad actions in Scientology don't nullify good deeds afterwards as some say. Maybe the good deeds aren't enough but that doesn't mean the good deeds are erased. I welcome Mike's good deeds post Scientology. Whether it's "enough" is not up to me.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I see where you're coming from Emma. I totally agree about the person who was bilked of his life savings too, that's a disgrace.

On the whole I got off pretty lightly, but they tried to sell me a co-audit package to Clear without having anyone at the org I could co-audit with (there rarely is in an outer org); it wasn't cheap either (#12,000). I declined, but only realised it was a scam when I came here and read Thetan Exterior's comments about his experiences at another org.

I was also more or less ordered onto an ethics course by someone I later discovered was herself having an affair with another staff member (despite being married). I was *angry enough about being pushed around like that that I disappeared for six weeks and didn't come back on course until they'd both gone, and only then did I discover the truth about their situation. (I didn't do the course either.)

The question I would still want to ask though, is whether or not it's even possible to go deep into the CofS rabbit warren and thereby accumulate the knowledge which would enable you to effectively expose them, without at the same time getting embroiled in some highly questionable activities? I would guess it isn't, and you're not going to get the one without the other. I remember someone who hasn't posted here for a while saying she had to go door to door collecting donations for the Org from people who could ill afford it, which she now feels very guilty about.

* If I'm honest, there was a certain amount of fear as well; I felt they were trying to control me and didn't want that to happen. As I've said before I was also very lucky that the Org "showed their arse" to me so early on; if they hadn't done, I might well have been tempted to get more deeply involved than I in fact did.

 

[He-man]

Personally I know that I don't have any answers any more. The older I get I realize more and more exactly how little black and white there is in the world, not talking about science but about the human world.

I have needs though, and feelings. Feelings like a strong resentment towards anyone who ever made excuses for Scientology, its tech or its founder. Needs like a need for justice to be served. I find that I still hunger for that even if it feels ridiculous at the same time. Most people who ever did something to me personally are either dead or missing. I only know of one person still involved in the church who did something to me personally. Everyone else is gone. The one parent I have left has been kicked out for being even far too weird for the freshmen cultists in Sweden. Hilarious isn't it? Believe too much in Marcabians and invader forces and nowadays they'll slowly run away from you.

It seem that it comes down to who's been wronged by whom though, doesn't it? Except for upper management. Most people seems to at least want upper management to come clean for closure if nothing else.

I don't think the church will be done in before I die, and I still hope to have at least 75 years left before I'ma gonna kick the spiritual bucket of nonsense. I just wish it wasn't so.

I wish it wasn't so hard for law enforcement across the world to connect the dots. I wish all evidence was the plain and easy to see.

I wish that politicians wouldn't be so chicken about "religious freedom". Isn't freedom of speech and freedom to assemble enough? Why do people need to have such a hard time about being laughed at? Can't there be another way to protect actual religious minorities from persecution?

I also wish that people could see individuals at face value, without this silly need to make heroes out of everyone they see on the screen. If I had known it was that easy to become popular I'd have chosen to pursue my dreams of theater instead of going for the monies.

Aaanyways, just wanting to chip in a bit more on this without actually having much constructive to say.

 

[Terril park]

"What is the cost of lies?​

​

"It's not that we'll mistake them for the truth. The real danger is that​

if we hear enough lies, then we no longer recognize the truth at all.​

What can we do then? What else is left but to abandon even the ​

hope of truth, and content ourselves instead . . . with stories."​

. . .​

"We are so focused on our search for truth, we fail to consider how ​

few actually want us to find it. But it is always there, whether we ​

can see it or not, whether we choose to or not. The truth doesn't ​

care about our needs or wants. It doesn't care about our governments, ​

our ideologies, our religions. It will lie in wait, for all time."​

​

HBO Series Chernobyl​

Spoiler: Special Limited Edition

Don't be huntin' too long for this issue of Time on Ebay or at your local library.

I think Chernobyl is the greatest series I've seen
despite the massive competition.

 

[Alanzo]

The quality of the discussion in this thread reminds me of the old days on ESMB.

 

[Gib]

Personally I know that I don't have any answers any more. The older I get I realize more and more exactly how little black and white there is in the world, not talking about science but about the human world.

I have needs though, and feelings. Feelings like a strong resentment towards anyone who ever made excuses for Scientology, its tech or its founder. Needs like a need for justice to be served. I find that I still hunger for that even if it feels ridiculous at the same time. Most people who ever did something to me personally are either dead or missing. I only know of one person still involved in the church who did something to me personally. Everyone else is gone. The one parent I have left has been kicked out for being even far too weird for the freshmen cultists in Sweden. Hilarious isn't it? Believe too much in Marcabians and invader forces and nowadays they'll slowly run away from you.

It seem that it comes down to who's been wronged by whom though, doesn't it? Except for upper management. Most people seems to at least want upper management to come clean for closure if nothing else.

I don't think the church will be done in before I die, and I still hope to have at least 75 years left before I'ma gonna kick the spiritual bucket of nonsense. I just wish it wasn't so.

I wish it wasn't so hard for law enforcement across the world to connect the dots. I wish all evidence was the plain and easy to see.

I wish that politicians wouldn't be so chicken about "religious freedom". Isn't freedom of speech and freedom to assemble enough? Why do people need to have such a hard time about being laughed at? Can't there be another way to protect actual religious minorities from persecution?

I also wish that people could see individuals at face value, without this silly need to make heroes out of everyone they see on the screen. If I had known it was that easy to become popular I'd have chosen to pursue my dreams of theater instead of going for the monies.

Aaanyways, just wanting to chip in a bit more on this without actually having much constructive to say.

I don't have any need for closure from any scientologist that may have harmed me, even upper management.

They, and all of us involved where just pawns. The closure I got was a false applied religious philosophy that we were pawns of.

Dead L Ron hubbard is dead and he ain't coming back. Closure. False religion.

 

[Voodoo]

Where is the golden line in the sand that ekes out who should be held accountable for their actions in the cult and who gets a pass?

Alanzos ongoing crusade on Mike the Raindeer and his cool gang of beans has gotten me thinking a lot about this question. Mike was head of OSA for a long time and from what I understand, does not speak about his own involvement with the church during that time. The reason to me is unclear and can be speculated, of course, but that is beside the point I want to make.
Mike seems to be likable and is perceived as doing the right thing with his involvement in the Aftermath and all that.
To be fair, he has said that he's gone to the feds and on his blog he has made an admission that it was his job to run Osa ops on people.
It is clear to me that Mike has successfully been able to leave the church without going to jail. This is obviously upsetting for some, however, why must Mike be held accountable for the mess he bred with his fellow men? Why him? Why not all of us? Only some moments ago this was posted on this board:

I don't mean to single someone out, my point is, a lot of us have done morally reprehensible acts, if not downright criminal. So why do some get a free pass, whilst others doesn't.

Should it not be whether the acts that "we" have done during our time in Scientology were criminal, that should be the golden line? And if that is the bar, who are we to judge? I mean, no one here has the right rank to judge anyone for their admitted or believed crimes, proven or unproven. No one here has the right to impose some sort of restrictions on anyone. We don't live in a world where some oddball from Los Angeles has the mandate to forcibly "body route" us to some pigs berthing awaiting enrollment to the RPF.

I don't think anyone here should try and judge others. Especially since it is so plain that it is purely subjective whether someone does get a pass from his peers or not.

I do however believe that it is extremely important to discuss these things. Remember the 3rd party rule? Why was it a part of Ethics? For me the answer became clear years ago when I had a stroking beard moment. Scientology tries to teach us not to give criticism. Why is that important?
Criticism makes people think, gets them old cogs in the head spinning again. Maybe that is why we suck so hard at giving and receiving criticism within the Ex world. I mean, speaking for meself, my critical thinking kicked into action in my mid 20's!

I used to think that everyone who held any sort of position in Scientology should be held accountable, whenever and always. I still think that holds, but I am more keen to feel more forgiving. I understand why no one wants to go to jail. I mean there are so many reasons why someone should get a free pass for not speaking out if we start there. So if someone is actively engaging and pursuing a life as a critic, I've felt that I mightn't like it, but I'm not gonna stand there and do something about it.

So who should be held accountable? Who gets a free pass? Why is it ok to piss on someones parade and not on others?

For me, the answer is that most people are sheeples who need a leader or group to follow. Such people will always find some kind of opinion leader or dogma to do their thinking for them -- thus they can be very protective or defensive where it comes to criticisms or perceived attacks on their tribe or its leaders.

It's a cult of personality thing, in my view.

The former luminaries of Scientology who've chosen to assume leadership roles in the ex-Scn / anti-Scn domain have it the worst. I assume that most who have taken on that role, have done so to see justice done, and to somehow atone for their own sins in those injustices. They get shot at coming and going - from both sides.

I don't know...maybe some of them deserve to be in the crossfire. Perhaps some don't. In varying degrees, most of the ones I'm familiar with have at least tried to make up the damage by speaking out, or by helping the ex-Scn community in any way they can.

Then again, some take DM's dirty money and slink out of sight. Some grab whatever's left of their senses and just run as far away from the screaming monkey cage as fast as they can - never looking back. I know a couple of those.

What a can of worms this question opens. I can easily see a thread like this going over a thousand posts.

 

[Voodoo]

What if DM got out? What if DM made some sort of blanket apology, got on TV and started exposing the moral crimes of Scientology? Told everyone that he was raised in it and was brainwashed and had no choice. Would he get a pass too? Would we just forgive and forget because he went on Anderson Cooper or wrote an article for The Times and said "yes we did bad things and I'm sorry"? I have a feeling we would, because we are forgiving. We did it with Mike, why not Dave?

Sorry Emma, but Dave is in a league of his own, where it comes to crimes against humanity. He is, without doubt, one of the sickest, most vile beings that has ever been associated with Scientology.

The man doesn't have a single redeeming quality or attribute. I know from personal observation that he's nothing more than a sawed off, psychotic thug, who couldn't care less about any human being. He actually relishes fishing out pain, heartbreak, and torture to others.

There's no way on God's green earth he'll ever be forgiven by the ex-Scn community.

 

[scooter]

A lot of these posts are something I would have wholeheartedly agreed with in the past. My opinion has changed dramatically, especially over the last year or so.

I despise people like the Drunken Maggot because they are despicable. But I am not going to attempt to judge whether they should be punished or not. Simply because I see them as emotional retards who may have money, power, etc. but no control over their emotions or thoughts. And that is Hell right there.

They will live out their crippled lives worrying about being found guilty of crimes and punished. I think in Mike’s case he’s trying to “make up the damage done” as best he can and not because it’s part of Hubbard Tehc but simply because it’s what decent human beings do.

Judge him? Judge Marty? Judge myself? I am happy to see the justice system used for that purpose. I spilled my guts to the police, as Marty and Mike apparently did. As a few others have apparently done. I’m not interested in seeing kulties punished for the sake of revenge or closure. Removed from society to prevent them continuing to harm? If that’s what the system finds is needed.

Yes I can get angry about things done to me and others and would love to see pain inflicted on the perpetrators. But I cool off and think if that’s going to make a better place for my kids and their generation. And seriously I did enough shitty things before,during and after my time in the kult to know I cannot in all honesty pass judgement.

Not that that makes me a saint.

Nor does it mean I’m not willing to fight a good fight.

 

[Free to shine]

A lot of these posts are something I would have wholeheartedly agreed with in the past. My opinion has changed dramatically, especially over the last year or so.

I despise people like the Drunken Maggot because they are despicable. But I am not going to attempt to judge whether they should be punished or not. Simply because I see them as emotional retards who may have money, power, etc. but no control over their emotions or thoughts. And that is Hell right there.

They will live out their crippled lives worrying about being found guilty of crimes and punished. I think in Mike’s case he’s trying to “make up the damage done” as best he can and not because it’s part of Hubbard Tehc but simply because it’s what decent human beings do.

Judge him? Judge Marty? Judge myself? I am happy to see the justice system used for that purpose. I spilled my guts to the police, as Marty and Mike apparently did. As a few others have apparently done. I’m not interested in seeing kulties punished for the sake of revenge or closure. Removed from society to prevent them continuing to harm? If that’s what the system finds is needed.

Yes I can get angry about things done to me and others and would love to see pain inflicted on the perpetrators. But I cool off and think if that’s going to make a better place for my kids and their generation. And seriously I did enough shitty things before,during and after my time in the kult to know I cannot in all honesty pass judgement.

Not that that makes me a saint.

Nor does it mean I’m not willing to fight a good fight.

I totally agree, wonderfully stated. It's an interesting journey of changing viewpoints isn't it? That pendulum of opinion and reaction swings until settles into a balance. But only if you do the hard personal work of questioning and forgiving yourself too.