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WhyTheyAreDead- My Theory

Discussion in 'General Scientology Discussion' started by Anony-Moose, Feb 1, 2009.

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  1. Anony-Moose

    Anony-Moose Patron

    Recently my thoughts were placed upon the scientology dead. I made a quick list of all the scientologists that I personally knew in some way, that are now dead. In just two minutes, my list had 19 people on it. All died way before their time, they did not die of old age. In fact, now that I think about it, I've never known a scientologist who simply died of old age. Three of them, who were New OT 8's, died of cancer not long after completing OT 8. None of them were people that I think, "God, I sure am glad that guy is dead." Maybe two or three of them, I would say, were really messed-up. But they were probably messed up by scientology in that being in scientology denied them access to true help.

    Anyway, not to ramble, I was thinking, you know, the people on my list, most of them, were really, really good people. Now some of us are fortunate enough to get out. But some really good people get stuck in there and can never get out. So many of the real jerks seem to flourish inside, people I want to feed to my German Shepherd, you all know the type. The callous, shark-eyed ones who dk how to spell the word humanitarian, aka the Un-Dead.

    I think many of the people who die in there, do so because they are genuinely good. And a genuinely good person who cannot reconcile nor escape the evil that is inherent within that organization, just gets sick and dies because they have no other way out.

    Anyway, I was just wondering if people here who knew scientologists who died, have a similar observation, that's all. I used to think that the scientology dead were just a statistic like any other sample of a population. But no, I now see a common thread and I wonder if others see it too. And I also thought we could honor the dead by remembering them and sending them positive wishes, and also be thankful that we, are alive and well.
     
  2. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    We do have a memorial thread here AM. We discuss this from time to time. The amazing thing to me is that when I was "in" we never even talked about it. I rarely even would have been told that someone died. It was just kind of a forbidden subject. On the memorial thread we even have a candle lighting section. Check it out.:yes:

    Link please???????:whistling:
     
  3. uniquemand

    uniquemand Unbeliever

    The dead you hear about are usually the wild cases, the ones "worthy of note". I haven't known anyone who was a scientologist who died. I do know that scientologists die, like anyone else (and sometimes in ways unique to scientology, i.e. Lisa). Just for some balance, there has never been anyone in my extended family who died "of natural causes" or "of old age". My grandfather died of a stroke, my grandmother on that side died of a stroke (he at 79, she at 97), my other grandmother died of complications from colon cancer. My father died of lung cancer, my mother survived breast cancer, my cousin died of cirrhosis, my aunt died of complications from a tracheotomy after throat cancer. None of them were Scientologists. They are the people that were in my family who died.

    Of my friends who have died, all of them were in car crashes. None of them were scientologists.

    I've always thought "natural causes" was a way of saying "we're not bothering with an autopsy, or otherwise investigating actual cause of death". Everyone dies OF SOMETHING, it's never just "whoops, I'm dead".
     
  4. uncle sam

    uncle sam Silver Meritorious Patron

    Hey therre Mr./Mrs. Anony-Moose

    Did you know Dennis Dubin [died October 2008-new OT8 of cancer]?
     
  5. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    We do have a memorial thread here AM. We discuss this from time to time. The amazing thing to me is that when I was "in" we never even talked about it. I rarely even would have been told that someone died. It was just kind of a forbidden subject. On the memorial thread we even have a candle lighting section. Check it out.:yes:

    Link please???????:whistling:

    BTW- congrats on your 10th post!!
     
  6. Anony-Moose

    Anony-Moose Patron

    On my list of 19, one is a child, and most are in their 40's and 50's. Only one was an accident victim, but they were the one driving. Some are extended family members. Only one on the list was over 70. I know its rare for people to die of old age, but today I think half or most people do live into their 70's and 80's, right? Even though they may die of cancer or heart failure.

    I'll check out the memorial thread, GT, thanks. And I'll light a candle.
     
  7. Anony-Moose

    Anony-Moose Patron

    US wrote:
    He's not on my list but the name is familiar. Was he related to Stan Dubin?

    Most of the people on my list are not even on the WTAD site! That makes me wonder how many more there really are. I'm sorry I can't publish my list without instantly making public who I am.
     
  8. uncle sam

    uncle sam Silver Meritorious Patron

    To A-M

    Dennis Dubin is not related to Stan Dubin-if the Stan Dubin you are referring to is an old time staff member of FCDC? Is he dead-[stan-i mean}????? That would be big news and if he is dead -please tell all you know-thanks.
     
  9. Anony-Moose

    Anony-Moose Patron

    No, Stan Dubin not dead afaik. Stan Dubin lived in CW and had a field group many moons ago. But I'm not really on the who's died in CW lines. Like someone said, they just don't promote that stuff.
     
  10. Good twin

    Good twin Floater

    Been thinking about this since I first started reading this thread. I took a break to get the wings and dip and stuff for the Super Bowl tonight.

    I tried to evaluate the number of dead Scientologists and the circumstances of their deaths against the number of dead non Scientologists and the circumstances of their death that I have direct knowledge of and/or intimate connection to. It's impossible. I have so very little non Scn history. I can't analyze it properly. But, I can say for certain that observing the way we react (or not) to death and the way we "grieve" is definitely something I feel qualified to comment on.

    I've been "out" for a little over a year now. I've cried more since being out over the people who died while I was in than I did for the entire 30+ years I was in. The first was my father. He died when I was 22. I was the one who found his body. I was on post the next day. Two were fellow staff members who committed suicide (different Orgs and different decades). I was really mad at the first one for all the devT of trying to handle the upset and bad PR. The other I went into agreement that his decision to kill himself was truly the greatest good.... There were several OTs who obviously had some unhandled case phenom or blah blah blah. But NEVER not one time just simple plain raw emotional grief. No knot in my throat, tears welling up, God this isn't fair, or even it could've just as easily been me.

    I feel now. I cry hard. I make no apologies for becoming too emotional or making a scene. When I hurt I can't hold it back. I let it rip. I may be more composed as time goes on, but I have a lot of catching up to do regarding experiencing real human emotion.

    Recently I heard a story from the inside about an Exec who gave a cold hearted explanation of a fellow staff member's devastating medical prognosis. It was cold and cruel and heartless, but far from unfamiliar. My heart breaks for the dead. My heart breaks for the dying. My heart also goes out to the undead soulless brainwashed banner carriers who haven't an ounce of compassion or human kindness.

    Sadly...I know exactly how they think and feel. Or not.

    GT
     
  11. Markus

    Markus Silver Meritorious Patron

    You hit the point!

    I think many of the people who die in there, do so because they are genuinely good. And a genuinely good person who cannot reconcile nor escape the evil that is inherent within that organization, just gets sick and dies because they have no other way out.

    You are so right on this! Just read the tragic story of my brother.

    Anyway, I was just wondering if people here who knew scientologists who died, have a similar observation, that's all. I used to think that the scientology dead were just a statistic like any other sample of a population. But no, I now see a common thread and I wonder if others see it too.

    I see this too!!

    Love

    Markus
     
  12. Anony-Moose

    Anony-Moose Patron

    Oh, Markus, you are Uwe's brother and I know your story from Clambake. I am so sorry about your brother. I am so sorry he died in there instead of with his family. I did not know Uwe, but I am sure he would have been a much happier person if he could have been with his family during the end of his (too short) life. My heart goes out to you.

    Thank you for your comments and I wish you the best. You are honoring Uwe now by helping to divert others from scientology.
     
  13. Telepathetic

    Telepathetic Gold Meritorious Patron


    "In November,1944, Swank still felt that an occasional soldier,"perhaps less than 2%, belonged to the group capable of withstanding combat stress for an inordinate length of time. But we find him reporting in 1946:

    This seemed true...in November, 1944. Since then we have concluded that all normal men eventually suffer combat exhaustion in prolonged continuous and severe combat. The exceptions to this rule are pychotic (insane) soldiers, and a number of examples of this have been observed."

    Battle For The Mind, by William Sargant

    I will not compare being in Scientology to being in severe and prolonged combat, but I think you might agree with me that there are similarities.

    TP
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2009
  14. Panda Termint

    Panda Termint Cabal Of One

    I do, TP.

    The CofS/Hubbard fosters the idea that scn'ists are engaged in a prolonged battle against the evils of the world (including the personal battle against the Reactive Mind/Implanters et al).

    This has been one of their most successful actions in holding onto people, nobody wants to "desert a conrade in need/group to which you owe your allegiance" etc. in the midst of battle (see The Code of Honor).

    It's part of the trap.

    On the subject raised by AM, I know that a long-serving SO member commented about his body's forthcoming demise, "To be honest, I'll be very glad to be out of it." Most people think he meant the body, I think he meant the CofS.
     
  15. Telepathetic

    Telepathetic Gold Meritorious Patron

    I did say there are similarities and you just pointed these out. It's just the bullets flying and torn bodies that are missing:wink2:

    Regarding your friend in the SO, well,maybe for him/her dying is the only honorable way to leave. It's a shame.

    TP
     
  16. The Clam

    The Clam Patron with Honors

    I don't get this fixation on dead scn. People are dying of cancer all the time. JUst because someone did OT8 it doesn't protect them from cancer. I had four close friend who were not scn and all were under the age of 50 that died from cancer. To draw the conclusion that processing causes cancer is absurd.Today the cancer is more prevalent then prior years. Why? toxic chemicals in our food, water and environment.
     
  17. Telepathetic

    Telepathetic Gold Meritorious Patron

    I agree with you, I don't think processing causes cancer either. I do think though, that working in an environment such as the one in the "church," could be hazardous to your health.

    TP
     
  18. Ackerland

    Ackerland Patron with Honors

    OT8 processing takes place only aboard their cruise ship, the Freewinds. The Freewinds used to - and probably still does - have a considerable amount of blue asbestos that was used as insulation material in the construction of the ship. When breathing in even small amounts of the asbestos fibres into your lung, the risk of developing lung cancer is considerably increased. Smoking increases this risk even more and we all know that many Scientologists smoke like volcanos.
    Thus, It is very possible that there indeed is a strong correlation between OT8 service completions and cases of lung cancer. Of course, due to the secrecy of the church this is unlikely to be scientifically verifyable in the near future. But many reports from breakaways suggest that claims OT8 graduates more often die from lung cancer than non-scientologists cannot easily be dismissed.

    IMHO, it would be a worthwile cause to try to check the names from Freewinds service completions from the past and see whether you Ex-Scientologists have any info on these persons, about when and how they died if they're not alive anymore.
     
  19. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    This thread is interesting ... especially when you have the 'old viewpoint' to look over as Good Twin has done so well and honestly.

    I too recall that attitude to death and I recall how it was basically 'entheta' to discuss anyone's death ... I now think it was just another non confront and of course it was an out PR situation being 'handled' (hate using all these Scn words and am trying to train myself out of it ... I will eventually).

    I also get where you are coming from Anony-Moose re 'the good dying young in Scn' ... and I expect it has a ring of truth particularly for the more sensitive souls that died after playing the game (and paying the $) possibly/certainly knowing it was all a huge lie and a con.

    Who knows what suppressing your real thoughts and/or withholding communication out of fear of losing loved ones and feeling constantly degraded often for years on end .... not to mention exhausted ... does to a person?

    Make them ill I would imagine ...

    We are the lucky ones ... able to vent and rant now and then .... laugh a lot ... even tell silly jokes without giving a toss if we are called spiteful names or declared suppressive and therefore dump any accumulated upset by the bucketful.

    I just feel a bit silly and a bit sad when I look back.

    PS. Clam .... I think the people that do OT8 believe they will be protected from cancer/illness by doing that and the other levels.
     
  20. Anony-Moose

    Anony-Moose Patron

    The Clam wrote:
    What fixation are you referring to? No one here said processing causes cancer, either. But LRH did say that cancer is caused by problems on the 2D and OTs are supposed to be fully cause over their dynamics. He also expected PTS tech to handle illness, and the Purif is supposed to handle all those toxins from the environment that you mentioned there. I don't think you are a real clam. You do not sound like a clam at all, to me, because you do not seem to know your LRH tech very well. And jeez, I hope you weren't drinking the same water that 4 those close friends of yours were drinkin'!. :omg: