Kha Khans - the derail thread on the Saints of Independent $cientology

[HelluvaHoax!]

Just wanted to bump this thread with this post from HH. Truly insightful, should probably be its own thread.

I have stated before that the biggest thing I got from Scientology was HOPE, which made me feel really good when I was young and idealistic. It only took about a decade for that to fade away and to see what was left in its place.

Thanks. And I actually did think of starting a separate thread that ran YouTube videos 24/7 showing people who think they have special "powers"--but then are ridiculously debunked.

That's all that Scientology is:

An "Operating Thetan" is exactly what is depicted in those videos. The old silver-haired Tai Chi master is an OT. You saw him flipping his many (student) attackers all about as if they were nothing more than rag dolls? You saw him using his "tech" to demonstrate "total cause over life"? There's your proof, you saw it with your own eyes!​

Pay no attention to the end of that video[SUP]1[/SUP] where our OT warrior conclusively proved that he could easily defeat a lone homo sapiens fighter.



[SUP]1[/SUP] If you did happen to see the end of the video, you should write up your O/Ws and do an amends project for looking at entheta on the internet. When completed, you should report for false data stripping and "rollback" to erase any lingering reactive thoughts that gave you the mistaken belief that the OT fighter was defeated. People thinking that will lose their eternity, so be sure to handle your insane mind asap, while there is still a slim hope to save you.

 

[Gizmo]

Yeah, well, the first I heard of these "incredible" ot powers was the ability to find a parking place.

I know to some people that is really very impressive however I've been finding a place to park my car as long as I have been driving.

C'mon. How many of you have ever gotten in your car, gone somewhere, not been able to find a place to park & just gone on back home ?

Or other super huge wins & displays of amazing feat day after day of getting to course on time? Now there is a BIG ot ability !

Even going on a regularly scheduled break & finding - ot miracle of ot miracles - the snack bar has the exact hot food you want to eat.

Or even finding someone just outside the course room building that has a light ?

Impressive struff.

So, it really isn't hard to grasp why the adherents feel they gets the best gains in the universe - look at those huge super ot powers they have gained !

 

[Terril park]

Just heard from a friend who was one of the top auditors at Mayo's
AAC. He was there auditing for 6 or 7 months and heard of no case
of anyone having a psychotic break.

 

[Dart Smohen]

I find it concerning that so many folks still have not let go of their connections to the cult.
In my career in Scn I have processed many people on "upper level" material, was Chief of Advanced Courses and research auditor in 1968, opened the AO in Edinburgh with Bill Robertson, Senior C/s AOSH and did the AO review auditing.

In all that time I have NEVER seen anybody demonstrate what is considered to be an "OT ability". Ok, projecting intention is easy, Malcolm Nieman and I used to sit in the AO and see if we could get people to do simple things like turning around to look, move their hand etc. Sometimes it worked, more often it didn't.

The only time I ever saw what I would consider anything even remotely resembling an "OT ability" was in Las Palmas where we developed abilities (not deliberately) just doing huge amounts of physical work. Even then, despite becoming very aware and able to accomplish serious physical achievements, these were not what you would describe as "OT abilities".I have described before seeing Fred Peyer drop a peseta coin on the table and make it move without touching it. To us it was no big deal, just "cool".

Hubbard was for the most part stoned out on drugs. When he became aware of the things we were able to do he went nuts. He had nowhere near any of these abilities ( for want of a better word) and decided that he had to disband the Sea Project, close down the Hubbard Exploration Company and introduce the Sea Organization with its silly one billion year contract. Most of the crew just signed it, the reverence was immaterial. I decided not to, along with Terry Dickenson who told Hubbard that he was off his rocker. I was tasked with conducting James Fuller back to St Hill so he could "De-PTS".

With all the drugs Hubbard was taking and his "research" into "The wall of fire" he was acting and talking in an increasingly delusional manner. When I became Chief of Advanced Courses I had access to the safe and read the full transcript of Hubbard's writings on OT3. No, I didn't fall into a 36 day freewheel, become ill or come anywhere close to death. It was a rambling SF diatribe very mindful of what "Doc" Smith wrote in the 1930's.

In conclusion I would reiterate that it factually impossible for a person to achieve any "OT abilities" from participation in the materials of Scn. Yes, people may well make gains from doing drills, just as if they took a walk, did yoga, swam daily or any other activity which repeated participation brings about.

It is time for folks to move on.

Dart

 

[eldritch cuckoo]

I find it concerning that so many folks still have not let go of their connections to the cult. [...]

Please, could you set the format of your postings to standard font size?!!
It annoys the hell out of me, and I can't imagine I'm the only one. I have to fiddle with browser settings each time or copy it into the text editor.
Also, it gives the impression that you consider your stuff three times more important than everybody else's and/or are shouting, at last with longer postings. Is that the impression you wish to give? I doubt it.
If you're having problems with your eyesight, write the postings in a text editing program with sufficient zoom and/or font size. You can also make this the standard setting each time the program is opened (at last with Microsoft Word). Or write it in the Windows text editor, where you can set the default size of the font to one that is large enough for you. This setting also remains until you change it.

 

[freethinker]

What was Ronnies reaction when you told him he was "Off his Rocker"? I would love to have been there when someone told him the truth.

I find it concerning that so many folks still have not let go of their connections to the cult.
In my career in Scn I have processed many people on "upper level" material, was Chief of Advanced Courses and research auditor in 1968, opened the AO in Edinburgh with Bill Robertson, Senior C/s AOSH and did the AO review auditing.

In all that time I have NEVER seen anybody demonstrate what is considered to be an "OT ability". Ok, projecting intention is easy, Malcolm Nieman and I used to sit in the AO and see if we could get people to do simple things like turning around to look, move their hand etc. Sometimes it worked, more often it didn't.

The only time I ever saw what I would consider anything even remotely resembling an "OT ability" was in Las Palmas where we developed abilities (not deliberately) just doing huge amounts of physical work. Even then, despite becoming very aware and able to accomplish serious physical achievements, these were not what you would describe as "OT abilities".I have described before seeing Fred Peyer drop a peseta coin on the table and make it move without touching it. To us it was no big deal, just "cool".

Hubbard was for the most part stoned out on drugs. When he became aware of the things we were able to do he went nuts. He had nowhere near any of these abilities ( for want of a better word) and decided that he had to disband the Sea Project, close down the Hubbard Exploration Company and introduce the Sea Organization with its silly one billion year contract. Most of the crew just signed it, the reverence was immaterial. I decided not to, along with Terry Dickenson who told Hubbard that he was off his rocker. I was tasked with conducting James Fuller back to St Hill so he could "De-PTS".

With all the drugs Hubbard was taking and his "research" into "The wall of fire" he was acting and talking in an increasingly delusional manner. When I became Chief of Advanced Courses I had access to the safe and read the full transcript of Hubbard's writings on OT3. No, I didn't fall into a 36 day freewheel, become ill or come anywhere close to death. It was a rambling SF diatribe very mindful of what "Doc" Smith wrote in the 1930's.

In conclusion I would reiterate that it factually impossible for a person to achieve any "OT abilities" from participation in the materials of Scn. Yes, people may well make gains from doing drills, just as if they took a walk, did yoga, swam daily or any other activity which repeated participation brings about.

It is time for folks to move on.

Dart

 

[Dulloldfart]

What was Ronnies reaction when you told him he was "Off his Rocker"? I would love to have been there when someone told him the truth.

<snip another's quote in large font>

What I sometimes do when quoting BIG-FONT peeps is to change the font size of their words from 5 to 1 (the smallest setting; default font size here is 2).

EDIT: With Dart, it was eye trouble. I just spoke to him. I told him about Ctrl-ScrollWheel for rapid browser zoom in/out.

Paul

 

[Knows]

Udarnik, you'd have to had seen a Cult training film about the tone scale.....and a portion of said film, with a woman writhing over a man....and the man standing stone cold still....as he ignores the woman's wiles.

Upon reading your description of her...that memory popped up....

Quite funny,

In the Cult.....one is suppose to keep one's TRs IN.....and not react to such a thing as an attractive woman....or her allurements.

So sad.

So....FLUNK!! La Fatty!!

LOL

That reminds me of a film in Scientology -

Do you remember the one with "Miss Gottbucks"...in a fur - in a court of law and just got away with...murder? Can't remember the crime...

and La Tubby talking about the injustice of our justice system...blabbering about "if you have money - you can commit murder and get away with it....BUT NOT in Scientology. Scientology has "Ethics" which puts the Being at Slight Gentle Cause...."

Now - here we are in 2015 and take a look at what Scientology has morphed into.

Here we have IAS Donor Bat Shit Crazy Linda Lombardo.

Ms. Lombardo's write up after becoming a Gloritorious Baffooniorius Meritorious IAS Gold Donor - who gave GOBS of money to David Miscaviges crooked Lawyer slush fund so Miscavige can keep the show on the road and stay out of jail. Who is willfully ignorant as to what the leader of her Cherch is up to as well as the fraud and deceit of the founder....

She states: "Breaking through the barriers of IAS statuses is a demonstration of abilities gained"

 

[AnonyMary]

I just felt bad for him because he was gagged by the cofs and then effectively further gagged here, the very place he could have benefited from, as most of us have done.

I hope he's well anyway.

From my last communications with David, he's doing just fine.

I don't know exactly what you are referring to here but I don't think he was "then effectively further gagged here". On ESMB, that is. I know at one point there was some sort of back channel crap going on to besmirch him or whatever ( Even I was pulled into some of that drama at one point but I called it for what it was and cut it off ). But I don't see that he was gagged from it all.

AFAIK, David has a life and he's living it and just seems to be someone who is just not going to allow others to trap him into violating any NDA settlement agreement. Who can blame him? He and his wife been put through hell by CoS and OSA. Far more than others have He's done with all that. And with Scientology. Few can say that he didn't try to help people, even though he later came to see that Scientology was not all it was cracked up to be. But I believe he evolved out, battered and bruised and wiser from the experience and making the most of what he could of the remains of what the cult did and took from him.

I feel bad for him being gagged but I also know, from experience with people who have signed gag agreements to get their money back from Narconon, that there comes a time where oone has to lose something in order to win the whole of it all. I believe David has long accepted the gag and has moved on and is living life on his own terms, aside from the limits of the gag, and enjoying his time left here on this earth to make the most of it.

 

[Knows]

Yeah, well, the first I heard of these "incredible" ot powers was the ability to find a parking place.

I know to some people that is really very impressive however I've been finding a place to park my car as long as I have been driving.

C'mon. How many of you have ever gotten in your car, gone somewhere, not been able to find a place to park & just gone on back home ?

Or other super huge wins & displays of amazing feat day after day of getting to course on time? Now there is a BIG ot ability !

Even going on a regularly scheduled break & finding - ot miracle of ot miracles - the snack bar has the exact hot food you want to eat.

Or even finding someone just outside the course room building that has a light ?

Impressive struff.

So, it really isn't hard to grasp why the adherents feel they gets the best gains in the universe - look at those huge super ot powers they have gained !

I swear to you this happened.

The ONLY time I was not able to find a parking space was when I was visiting an Org in another City. I was on a job assignment and was stationed in another City for month. I figured I would take a course.

The Org was located in an area where there was no parking. Members and staff had to pay for it. Staff mainly took the bus or train. I thought they were absolutely stupid to chose this location.

I had a rental car. I wanted to drive so I could have my car.

I went to the Org and ended up driving around for at least an hour looking for a parking spot.

I was so pissed. I called the Org and told the receptionist. She told me "happiness is overcoming obstacles blah blah blah"

I left a message for the course supervisor that I was going home due to NO PARKING.

They called me back and told me I need to go OT - they never have problems finding parking spaces....

Kid you not!

LOL

 

[Leland]

That reminds me of a film in Scientology -

Do you remember the one with "Miss Gottbucks"...in a fur - in a court of law and just got away with...murder? Can't remember the crime...

and La Tubby talking about the injustice of our justice system...blabbering about "if you have money - you can commit murder and get away with it....BUT NOT in Scientology. Scientology has "Ethics" which puts the Being at Slight Gentle Cause...."

Now - here we are in 2015 and take a look at what Scientology has morphed into.

Here we have IAS Donor Bat Shit Crazy Linda Lombardo.

Ms. Lombardo's write up after becoming a Gloritorious Baffooniorius Meritorious IAS Gold Donor - who gave GOBS of money to David Miscaviges crooked Lawyer slush fund so Miscavige can keep the show on the road and stay out of jail. Who is willfully ignorant as to what the leader of her Cherch is up to as well as the fraud and deceit of the founder....

She states: "Breaking through the barriers of IAS statuses is a demonstration of abilities gained"

I don't recall that film....but sounds funny. LRH's training films were always a bit campy.

Geeze that poster is fu*ked up. Case gain from donating money....a real Kool Aid drinker.

More like high pressured sales tactics until all one's common sense blows up.....how truly un-spiritual.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Snipped and my emphasis.

From my last communications with David, he's doing just fine.

I don't know exactly what you are referring to here but I don't think he was "then effectively further gagged here". On ESMB, that is. I know at one point there was some sort of back channel crap going on to besmirch him or whatever ( Even I was pulled into some of that drama at one point but I called it for what it was and cut it off ). But I don't see that he was gagged from it all.

I did explain what I meant earlier, but was trying to be tactful (lol, yeah I know).

I'll leave it at that now.

Glad to hear all is well though.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

This http://www.xenu.net/archive/FBI/fbi-110.html is a long, rambling letter LRH wrote to the U.S. Attorney General in May of 1951. In it, he accuses Sara Northrup of being a Communist or being under the influence of Communists.

It is interesting reading. Interesting to see LRH "reframing" his entire relationship with Sara. Oh, and he refers to the Jack Parson's home as a "free love community". Heh, heh. Yeah, Ron, we've read about the rather wide swath you were cutting through the free love community. As opposed to being home with your wife and two children.

The Original Men in Black thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...te-Cooper-detailing-the-Original-Men-in-Black!

 

[Enthetan]

Very interesting!

I thought about that a moment and realized that the first thing one would need to discern is whether or not that emotional/psychological element that is being "separated" is in fact a desirable state.

Many positive human responses (smiling, laughter, feeling of joy, energized...) are mimicked under very undesirable conditions. For example someone who is stabbed or shot often feels no pain whatsoever and doesn't even realize they are seriously wounded until much later. Another example is an accident victim who goes into shock, might appear to replicate a "calm" or "serene" zen state of mind.

Essentially Scientology sets up a creative role playing game and invites the players to use symbology, iconography and story telling paradigms to work their way through inner conflicts and stress. In parallel fashion, Christians who endlessly study the Bible and can quote the appropriate scripture (verbatim) in any challenging life situation--likewise are observably relieved by the Bible's sacred story paradigms.

The gleam that filters into their eyes as they report what God or Jesus said is not indistinguishable from a starry-eyed Scientologist reciting the "LRH reference" that "handles everything" in the physical world and beyond.

But as far as "HUGE WINS" go, I see it as an ever-present expression of humanity. Sudden bursts of euphoria are EVERYWHERE...go to a bowling alley, sit in the stadium for a sporting event, hit a rock concert, or drop in a sports bar when the local NBA, NFL or MLB franchise is playing. How is that any different than people holding soup cans and whooping it up?

For that matter, how is the adrenaline-driven euphoric rush a thuggish street mugger experiences (when he steals your wallet and watch) in any way different from the "high toned" ARC gush a Scientologist experiences when they stand up and applaud a wall photo?

Prayer and meditation can also produce euphoric states with the release of beta-endorphins. I'm wondering if the common denominator might be prolonged, focused concentration on something.

Might it be something similar to the "runner's high" that occurs after prolonged physical exertion, and which also results in the release of beta-endorphins?

Might this have been LRH's real discovery? That forcing the PC to maintain focus on something for an extended period of time results in a beta-endorphin "rush", which Scientology calls "key out"/FN/VGIs?

 

[Udarnik]

Prayer and meditation can also produce euphoric states with the release of beta-endorphins. I'm wondering if the common denominator might be prolonged, focused concentration on something.

Might it be something similar to the "runner's high" that occurs after prolonged physical exertion, and which also results in the release of beta-endorphins?

Might this have been LRH's real discovery? That forcing the PC to maintain focus on something for an extended period of time results in a beta-endorphin "rush", which Scientology calls "key out"/FN/VGIs?

So does chanting for an extended period. I have a feeling these techniques for producing endorphin rushes came directly from the OTO practices.

And this kind of stuff also produces psychotic breaks. My sister-in-law in the Buddhist cult manifested symptoms of schizophrenia, and was put on meds. She later went to a retreat where they chanted for 12 hours straight and had another full-on Type III episode despite the meds. She has not done anything like that chanting marathon since, and she has been stable since then, too.

Anyone with any family history of mental illness should stay the fuck away from this kind of bliss-seeking.

 

[Enthetan]

So does chanting for an extended period. I have a feeling these techniques for producing endorphin rushes came directly from the OTO practices.

And this kind of stuff also produces psychotic breaks. My sister-in-law in the Buddhist cult manifested symptoms of schizophrenia, and was put on meds. She later went to a retreat where they chanted for 12 hours straight and had another full-on Type III episode despite the meds. She has not done anything like that chanting marathon since, and she has been stable since then, too.

Anyone with any family history of mental illness should stay the fuck away from this kind of bliss-seeking.

Yes, forcing the rush like that might be dangerous for people with abnormal brain chemistry, as you noticed.

I'm wondering if the phenomenon evolved from our caveman days, where a hunter's ability to stay motionless and mentally focused while waiting for prey to come along the trail, would be of great benefit.

 

[Student of Trinity]

I'm wondering if the phenomenon evolved from our caveman days, where a hunter's ability to stay motionless and mentally focused while waiting for prey to come along the trail, would be of great benefit.

That's an interesting idea. It's not so easy to see the evolutionary benefit of an effect that suddenly strikes after hours of concentration, though.

Maybe the evolutionary advantage for humans was actually opposite: maybe animal predators have a milder but immediate endorphic encouragement to concentrate, and humans evolved a tendency to postpone this and avoid fixating (which, the hypothesis goes, would be beneficial more often than not, for creatures with large enough brains to think more broadly). Evolution is not perfect, however; a mechanism that developed over billions of years doesn't just get eliminated. So maybe chanting and auditing are a way to work around human non-fixation instincts and return to a more primitive concentration high.

Still just speculation, of course. But a surprising number of neurophysiological phenomena, from depression to urination, have to do with suppressing suppression mechanisms, instead of directly stimulating things. Evolution may well have flopped back and forth quite a bit, finding ad hoc ways to undo things that aren't as useful as they once were, then redo them when they come in handy again. Understanding how evolution really works, and how it really differs from intelligent design, is mostly about understanding the ways in which evolution is crude and inefficient and kludgy. The system as a whole is arguably extremely elegant, in the way it so robustly manages to muddle through somehow; but the individual mechanisms that evolution produces are often anything but elegant.

I think maybe there have already been studies of effects on the brain from chanting and meditating. Maybe some of those results could be compared with auditing.

 

[Enthetan]

That's an interesting idea. It's not so easy to see the evolutionary benefit of an effect that suddenly strikes after hours of concentration, though.

I was thinking about something analogous to "runner's high", which also seems to have a delayed onset.

For primitive hunters, runner's high allows them to persist:

A runner's high has been suggested to have evolutionary roots based on the theory that it helped with the survival of early humans. Current African tribes make use of a runner's high when they are conducting persistence hunting. This is a method in which tribesman hunt an animal and track it for miles, eventually killing it due to its greatly increased vulnerability because it became completely physically exhausted.[1]

The onset of "exercise high" doesn't happen at the beginning, but after a while, when the person needs something to help him keep going in the face of physical exhaustion.

I'm wondering if "focus high" might have a similar role, to keep somebody going.

 

[Udarnik]

Regarding the conversation on the Type III thread - I am now swinging in the direction of suicide for Flo Barnett. Even IF it wasn't, there was a previous attempt and no indication that she was referred to a professional.

This is an open invitation for:

refutations of that assumption (WITH SUPPORTING DATA).

direct recollections of the AAC

any documentation for who / how many people went to the AAC

any other records of the AAC.


As I said before, I'm not interested in pummeling Mayo, especially after all he went through. I am interested, however, in looking at the full and true record of the AAC - that is a subject best not avoided Kha Khan style. That group spawned several indie variants or schools, and I consider all of them potentially dangerous.

 

[Veda]

-snip-

That group spawned several indie variants or schools, and I consider all of them potentially dangerous.

Please list the groups it spawned.