Since losing my mum almost month ago now, it’s really hit home to me how cold the ‘official’ response is from Scientologists to the loss of of a loved one. Not all S.O./Staff were cold, but most were and would simply say “Joe Bloggs has dropped the body”, or “Jane Doe decided to drop the body”. There’s this disassociation and disconnect to the loss someone might be feeling at losing their partner/friend/husband/wife/sibling/relative etc., and it’s a very cold hearted attitude. They of course then go on to say you need to get your loss/grief handled, and yet again this doesn’t acknowledge the loss someone is feeling, and all they might need is a hug and someone to talk to.
“They Dropped The Body”
- Thread starter vumba
- Start date
Yes, the Scientology approach to death is quite thought-provoking, for a non/ex-Scientologist (ETA: and callous for those who experience it). On the one hand, on the cosmic scheme of things they are right: deaths happen all the time, and bodies don't last forever. And if you've ever seen extreme poverty and illness in places like India, life starts to look very cheap indeed. On the other hand, that's a person you knew and loved. To the people who loved them, a deceased person's life can't just be regarded as something in the past, a bunch of old memories to be discarded without sorrow. I always took solace in the idea that although the body of a loved-one might be dead, they themselves would live on, continuing their journey elsewhere.
Cold detachment is fine when you are talking about death in general, and in a philosophical sense. But it's not fine when you are talking about actual people you know and love, in my opinion. Once you lose that love and care for those around you, there isn't much discernible point to life.
Helena Handbasket
Gold Meritorious Patron
First of all, vumba, my condolences on your loss. I've no doubt you are hurting, and you don't need cookie-cutter condolences like "dropped the body" right now.
I do believe that death is not the end. That there is an afterlife, and in my belief system that afterlife generally results in picking up a new baby body somewhere else.
I don't know if your mother was in pain at the end, but the pain always abruptly stops at the final moment. That is one of the the very few good things about it. I'm talking about physical pain, of course. The emotional pain of losing somebody goes on for both the bereaved and the departed.
Someone once said it's worse for the survivors. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The departed feels the emotional pain of separation, too, even though they no longer have a physical body.
Imagine being in a relationship -- absolutely perfect from your point of view. Then all of a sudden your partner announces it's over. You would feel copious amounts of emotional pain -- this is what happens when one of a couple dies. (Add to that any physical pain, of course.)
Perhaps saying "dropped the body" is a way of saying the departed will get a new chance at life, in a new, healthy body. This is good. But the hurt of separation isn't reduced much by such a platitude.
And there's always a chance of reuniting with someone in the future. It seems I and another (whom I care about VERY much) come across each other every few lifetimes. This I hope for; and I hope it will work out well.
Feel free to post some more, vumba. I'm willing to listen.
Helena
I do believe that death is not the end. That there is an afterlife, and in my belief system that afterlife generally results in picking up a new baby body somewhere else.
I don't know if your mother was in pain at the end, but the pain always abruptly stops at the final moment. That is one of the the very few good things about it. I'm talking about physical pain, of course. The emotional pain of losing somebody goes on for both the bereaved and the departed.
Someone once said it's worse for the survivors. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The departed feels the emotional pain of separation, too, even though they no longer have a physical body.
Imagine being in a relationship -- absolutely perfect from your point of view. Then all of a sudden your partner announces it's over. You would feel copious amounts of emotional pain -- this is what happens when one of a couple dies. (Add to that any physical pain, of course.)
Perhaps saying "dropped the body" is a way of saying the departed will get a new chance at life, in a new, healthy body. This is good. But the hurt of separation isn't reduced much by such a platitude.
And there's always a chance of reuniting with someone in the future. It seems I and another (whom I care about VERY much) come across each other every few lifetimes. This I hope for; and I hope it will work out well.
Feel free to post some more, vumba. I'm willing to listen.
Helena
lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
My condolences for the loss or your mom and for your grief.
I wish you may still feel her love within you!
Hopefuly, you have loved ones to hug you and make you feel your grief is acknowledged.
Friends usually know how to comfort people because they really DO care and DO love...
I wish you may still feel her love within you!
Hopefuly, you have loved ones to hug you and make you feel your grief is acknowledged.
Friends usually know how to comfort people because they really DO care and DO love...
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No One
a girl is no one
This struggle of belief is so difficult for me and hits way too close to home these days.
At an early age, I had Christian beliefs. Someone who was passed on, could with 'faith', be reunited in 'heaven' and live happily ever after in paradise.
Later on, I believed in the COS teachings of reincarnation and also in the "promised possibility" of no longer forgetting those you loved and having some or total control over what happens next.
Now facing some health challenges of my own, and recently having lost some people very close to me ... I don't know what to believe at all.
That is probably my biggest lost 'certainty' that I miss the most, and wish I had back.
I would still so much like to believe that we go on, and come back... but It's so difficult because, on the other hand, I want to reject anything (everything) Hubbard said.
So what was the deal with an 'OT' saying they were able to get in comm with the thetan and told them to go get a new baby body? Were they just making it up, delusional?
I know reincarnation is part of other far older religions and schools of thought. Still, can't help but to want to throw that baby out with the bath water. Ahhh.
I guess I'll know when I know... and by then it won't really matter.
At an early age, I had Christian beliefs. Someone who was passed on, could with 'faith', be reunited in 'heaven' and live happily ever after in paradise.
Later on, I believed in the COS teachings of reincarnation and also in the "promised possibility" of no longer forgetting those you loved and having some or total control over what happens next.
Now facing some health challenges of my own, and recently having lost some people very close to me ... I don't know what to believe at all.
That is probably my biggest lost 'certainty' that I miss the most, and wish I had back.
I would still so much like to believe that we go on, and come back... but It's so difficult because, on the other hand, I want to reject anything (everything) Hubbard said.
So what was the deal with an 'OT' saying they were able to get in comm with the thetan and told them to go get a new baby body? Were they just making it up, delusional?
I know reincarnation is part of other far older religions and schools of thought. Still, can't help but to want to throw that baby out with the bath water. Ahhh.
I guess I'll know when I know... and by then it won't really matter.
Ohhh I am so sorry you feel like this. I send you a hug. As you say, older and ancient religions believed in reincarnation too. I do have a very strong knowingness and belief that we come back, and I hope you can feel this again. Both my mum and my great-aunt had absolute faith that they were in control of when they were going, and both prepared everyone for that time. It doesn’t make the grief of their loss any less, but it helps to know that they chose to go and went so peacefully without any drama. I would what Hubbard said, and read more on what the Buddhists and Hindus say. OT levels... pahhhh!This struggle of belief is so difficult for me and hits way too close to home these days.
At an early age, I had Christian beliefs. Someone who was passed on, could with 'faith', be reunited in 'heaven' and live happily ever after in paradise.
Later on, I believed in the COS teachings of reincarnation and also in the "promised possibility" of no longer forgetting those you loved and having some or total control over what happens next.
Now facing some health challenges of my own, and recently having lost some people very close to me ... I don't know what to believe at all.
That is probably my biggest lost 'certainty' that I miss the most, and wish I had back.
I would still so much like to believe that we go on, and come back... but It's so difficult because, on the other hand, I want to reject anything (everything) Hubbard said.
So what was the deal with an 'OT' saying they were able to get in comm with the thetan and told them to go get a new baby body? Were they just making it up, delusional?
I know reincarnation is part of other far older religions and schools of thought. Still, can't help but to want to throw that baby out with the bath water. Ahhh.
I guess I'll know when I know... and by then it won't really matter.
Thank you. I really am fine. It hits in waves, then small ripples, but I really am fine thanks. I actually find it therapeutic, and I feel mum around me quite a lot. XMy condolences for the loss or your mom and for your grief.
I wish you may still feel her love within you!
Hopefuly, you have loved ones to hug you and make you feel your grief is acknowledged.
Friends usually know how to comfort people because they really DO care and DO love...
lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
I am experiencing what you describe for the last 25 years or so...since I letf the cult, its lies and dellusion.This struggle of belief is so difficult for me and hits way too close to home these days.
At an early age, I had Christian beliefs. Someone who was passed on, could with 'faith', be reunited in 'heaven' and live happily ever after in paradise.
Later on, I believed in the COS teachings of reincarnation and also in the "promised possibility" of no longer forgetting those you loved and having some or total control over what happens next.
Now facing some health challenges of my own, and recently having lost some people very close to me ... I don't know what to believe at all.
That is probably my biggest lost 'certainty' that I miss the most, and wish I had back.
I would still so much like to believe that we go on, and come back... but It's so difficult because, on the other hand, I want to reject anything (everything) Hubbard said.
So what was the deal with an 'OT' saying they were able to get in comm with the thetan and told them to go get a new baby body? Were they just making it up, delusional?
I know reincarnation is part of other far older religions and schools of thought. Still, can't help but to want to throw that baby out with the bath water. Ahhh.
I guess I'll know when I know... and by then it won't really matter.
May I tell sincerely how I learned to deal, the best as I can with it???1) the great dellusion:
When this happens it's very much painful, in the mind as well as in the body; we feel very worry.
But , actually this is a blessing. It's a pain that will lead to a major change of beliefs and mindset.
This is a growth crisis that we only need to acknowledge in letting the confusion and the not-knowing to arise and to be....for a though challenging moment!
It's like a fearfull deep storm; But the pain comes from resisting to let go.
It's a sort of spiritual moult and you are about to slough your old spirituel skin to grow a mature one to better move on with you journey!
It's like a fearfull deep storm; But the pain comes from resisting to let go.
It's a sort of spiritual moult and you are about to slough your old spirituel skin to grow a mature one to better move on with you journey!
2) Your new skin
Dropping the old skin makes us feel naked and vulnerable since the protection of old beliefs
Is gone, even though we may try to hold onto it in search of a sense of security.
But if we only acknowledge it with humblenes and confidence then, we will feel this special uncomfortable moment like morphing from a caterpillar to a butterfly.
3) The butterfly
When wings drie and are strong enough, there is a complete new world, out of the cocoon that is awaiting for us To be explored. A journée de Will travel dit pur best friend: YOU
We don't have a clue of what this world is made of... We will Will recognize it and will allow time to make our own discoveries instead of listening to anyone pretending to know...
Why won't we listen?
So, be confident in you, let the Windows wide open, take deep breath, and soon you will discover that letting go and not knowing is very natural and not fearfull at all.....
Indeed, yes, you will know when you know!
Keep on going and be your own master..you already have much more wisdom than most human beings do...
Be confident, Even though there la Nothomb To know (conceptual mind) you already know all there is to know, like animals do , like nature do!
(as a side note, I find Jonathan livingston seagul moovie and soundtrack very inspiring...)
Please excuse my bad english though.
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Thank you.I am experiencing what you describe for the last 25 years or so...since I letf the cult, it's lies and dellusion.
May I tell sincerely how I learned to deal, the best as I can with it???
1) the great dellusion:
When this happens it's verry much painful, in the mind as well as in the body; we feel very worry.But , actually this is a blessing. It's a pain that will lead to a major change of beliefs and mindset.This is a growth crisis that we only need to acknowledge in letting the confusion and the not-knowing to arise and to bee..for a moment!
It's like a fearfull deep storm; But the pain comes from resisting to let go.
It's a sort of spiritual moult and you are about to slough your old spirituel skin to grow a mature one to better move on with you journey!Because those pretending they know are only sticking to their beliefs...so preventing you To make your own fly and discover what this new world is made of...away of cult, any faith, any pseudo teaching...since their purpose is to comfort those who never had the courage to fly...
2) Your new skin
When dropping the old skin makes us Feel naked and vulnerable since the protection of old beliefs
Is goone even though we mat try to hold onto it.
But if we only acknowledge it with humblenes and confidence then, we will feel this moment like morphing from a caterpillar to a butterfly.
3) The butterfly
When wings drie and are strong enough, there la a complete new world, out of the cocoon that is awaiting.
De don't have a clue le what this world la made of... We will Will recognize it and Will allow time To make our own discoveries instead of listeni...ng To amyone pretending to know...Why won't we listen?
and to wake up as you are doing!
So, be confident in you, let the Windows wide open, take deep breath, and soon you will discover that letting go and not knowing is very natural and not fearfull at all.....
Indeed, yes, you will know when you know!
Keep on going and be your own master..you already have much more wisdom than most human beings do...
Be confident, you already know all there is to know!
(as a side note, I find Jonathan livingston seagul moovie and soundtrack very inspiring...)
Please excuse my bad english though.
As far as I am concerned, any 'OT' who pretended they were able to get in comm with thetans of deceased bodies, exteriorise at will, or recall their eternity of whole track existence is, after a while, as culpable as Hubbard. Once someone does the OT levels and realises they have been conned, they have a responsibility to say so to those around them, on their way out the door. I would give them a free pass for a while, as they are probably trying to convince THEMSELVES they have gotten the abilities they were promised. But once they realise they have been conned, they owe a duty to others in the org to say so, in my opinion.
I relied on the testimonials of OTs in Scn. That's why I stayed in. I was lucky to not spend all that much time in the church. But if I had spent decades in there, and reached the OT levels only to find there was nothing there, I'd have been really pissed off at the OTs who span me a yarn.
I sometimes wonder whether there are people in Scn who have gotten some of the abilities, like stably exterior and such. I'd still be open to the possibility. But it seems unlikely, from what I've seen.
lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
As a long time Zen Buddhist practitionner (THE WORST student ever in my pagoda)
I can say there is the dharma and there are beliefs, rituals, esoterism as in any other spiritual practice. Anything LRH had said was nothing close to buddhist philosophy...I can say without any doubt he has never studied or practiced any school of buddhism... He had 0 wisdom of it and Scientology contains 0 of it's scriptutes, practices, toeachings, or philosophy! There is absoluetely none! Sorry about that!
Scientology is about building up a huge ego self who must get certainty and control over mest life
While ''getting rid of charge " of pseudo incidents and recalls of past lifetimes...
Although, buddhism dharma teaches to practice meditation in order to get the realization our mind, our thoughts, our ego is not our buddha nature...thus, being our true nature, we can be enlightened in the true roots of suffering and work out our way out of it..
We must let go our ego self, let go the need to control and have the courage to unknow what we thought we knew...thus, certainty is a concept of the ego...there is no self, like in Scientology, who dies and reborn....
Actually it would be more transformation...like your dead body will nurture the soil to then feed the three...
The body is seen as a precious temple..and being enlightened in this lifetime is very important since after death, having no more anchors, it' s very difficult....
It demands much courage to practice buddhism..but the rewards may be great and it will be very helpful at time of death...
Hope it helps to make the difference.
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Thank you, but this is precisely my point, which is why I suggested she forget what LRH says altogether and research elsewhere.
No One
a girl is no one
Thanks Lotus <3I am experiencing what you describe for the last 25 years or so...since I letf the cult, its lies and dellusion.
May I tell sincerely how I learned to deal, the best as I can with it???
1) the great dellusion:
When this happens it's very much painful, in the mind as well as in the body; we feel very worry.But , actually this is a blessing. It's a pain that will lead to a major change of beliefs and mindset.This is a growth crisis that we only need to acknowledge in letting the confusion and the not-knowing to arise and to be....for a though challenging moment!
It's like a fearfull deep storm; But the pain comes from resisting to let go.
It's a sort of spiritual moult and you are about to slough your old spirituel skin to grow a mature one to better move on with you journey!Because those pretending they know are only sticking to their beliefs...so preventing you to make your own fly and discover what this new world is made of...away of cults, any faith, any pseudo teaching, any guru...since their purpose is to comfort those who never had the courage to fly...and to wake up as you are doing!
2) Your new skin
Dropping the old skin makes us feel naked and vulnerable since the protection of old beliefs
Is gone, even though we may try to hold onto it in search of a sense of security.
But if we only acknowledge it with humblenes and confidence then, we will feel this special uncomfortable moment like morphing from a caterpillar to a butterfly.
3) The butterfly
When wings drie and are strong enough, there is a complete new world, out of the cocoon that is awaiting for us To be explored. A journée de Will travel dit pur best friend: YOU
We don't have a clue of what this world is made of... We will Will recognize it and will allow time to make our own discoveries instead of listening to anyone pretending to know...
Why won't we listen?
So, be confident in you, let the Windows wide open, take deep breath, and soon you will discover that letting go and not knowing is very natural and not fearfull at all.....
Indeed, yes, you will know when you know!
Keep on going and be your own master..you already have much more wisdom than most human beings do...
Be confident, Even though there la Nothomb To know (conceptual mind) you already know all there is to know, like animals do , like nature do!
(as a side note, I find Jonathan livingston seagul moovie and soundtrack very inspiring...)
Please excuse my bad english though.
No One
a girl is no one
Thanks Vumba, and my sincere condolences to you. I'm so sorry for your loss.
No One
a girl is no one
The book was a favorite of mine. Also other books by the same author. I never saw the movie though. I'll look for that.
lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
I too read all Richard Bach books like
" Illusions"
"A bridge across forever""
"There's no such place as far away"
They are among my fave..
However you may like a youtube link of the reading of the book..nice when one can't find sleep!
Lonely looking sky (soundtrack)
" Illusions"
"A bridge across forever""
"There's no such place as far away"
They are among my fave..
However you may like a youtube link of the reading of the book..nice when one can't find sleep!
Lonely looking sky (soundtrack)
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No One
a girl is no one
No such place as far away is a personal fave also... and illusions. In a similar line is the giving tree, and the little prince too. I will listen to that I love audiobooks and podcasts. Thank you again!
lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
I was too going to mention the little prince which has more to do with taking care and valuing our loved one who we are responsible for ( as soon as we love them and they trust in us)
However, Jonathan had to do with self-determinism, overcoming challenging times in taking refugee within us in order to find the courage to fly high..while people, in general tend to stick to the "flock" perceived false sense of security!
Jonathan Livingston taught me I am my best ever friend and, that feeling good about being lonely is never to be lonely!
It's like "Be your own master.."
However, Jonathan had to do with self-determinism, overcoming challenging times in taking refugee within us in order to find the courage to fly high..while people, in general tend to stick to the "flock" perceived false sense of security!
Jonathan Livingston taught me I am my best ever friend and, that feeling good about being lonely is never to be lonely!
It's like "Be your own master.."
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