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Are Freezoners Scientologists?

I have to disagree with some of the critics who I hold in high esteem. Freezoners are Scientologists, just as Lutherans are Christians. I consider the Freezoners similar to the defrocked monks in the Middle Ages who were liberal thinkers and disenchanted with the hypocrisy in administration by the Catholic Church of Rome. They sold their services as teachers and tutors. There was a special name for them, but it escapes me. Per the Church of Scientology, Freezoners are not Scientologists. Per L. Ron Hubbard’s policy they are not Scientologists because they are not in good standing with the Church. The Church may not even know that they are exes, but that still, per Church policy, would not make them Scientologists because to the Church, whether their doubts are discovered by the Church or not, they are in a lower condition.

But I do not use L. Ron Hubbard’s viewpoint, or the Church of Scientology ethics decrees in formulating my view. For example, L Ron Hubbard somewhere, I think on the Tony Hitchman interview, said that a Scientologists is anyone who uses Scientology. I don’t necessarily buy that either, because this is more evasive reasoning by Hubbard so it can be then argued that there are eight million Scientologists and that Scientology is non-denominational. So I don’t care how Hubbard or the Church defines a Scientologist. As a critic, I can’t hold the view that Hubbard’s thinking is inherently warped and at the same time accept his determination on what is or isn’t a Scientologist. How I define a Scientologist is someone who believes it works and uses it. I believe hypnotism sometimes works but I don’t use it, so I’m not a hypnotist. So I define a Scientologist as someone who believes it works and uses it.

Also, I noticed that Freezoners still are the effect of, and still use the inconsistent and manipulative reasoning (if you can call it reasoning) of Hubbard and the Church. By manipulative reasoning I do not mean reasoning where the user tries to manipulate the other side, I mean that the reasoning itself manipulates the person to accept the indoctrination. It is not reasoning to arrive at a synthesis; the thinking process used is in itself a self-indoctrinating process. That's why the Scientologist can't see it.
For example, when there is a point about Scientology they disagree with, such as disconnection, some Freezoners will say that Hubbard got it wrong and he was inherently flawed. Yet at the same time they marvel and consider him brilliant and will accept abstract concepts and principles of Hubbard as truth, such as the ARC Triangle. Or they will accept other principles and practices such as the workability of the e-meter. With regards to the technology of Scientology, the Church is consistent, but authoritarian and thereby corrupt, and the Freezone is inconsistent but democratic. But all believe and use Scientology.

So it seems to me that Freezoners can rightfully call themselves Scientologist, but not members of the Church of Scientology. Just as when Martin Luther split from the Catholic Church of Rome he could still call him self a Christian. A person’s religion is determined what the person believes and is applying in life. It is not determined by administrative authorities whether it is the Pope or David Miscaviage.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Escalus

Patron Meritorious
I personally don't care if they think of themselves as scientologists or not. Couldn't give less than a damn and don't see why it's even important. They're just very slim customers is all. I have no idea what they believe, and they refuse to tell me. That's a very great mystery to me.

I figure if you're happy about something you'd want to tell the world. And, quite frankly, they can't. Or - at least - I haven't met one yet who can.
 
I have no idea what they believe, and they refuse to tell me. That's a very great mystery to me.


No mystery, there is no "Freezoner Dogma".

Mostly individual freezoners, like most others, "believe" what they choose to believe. No one answer is possible to your question. [And I even know freezoners who'd disagree with THAT. :) ]


Mark A. Baker
 

gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
What FreeZoners believe:

Is entirely up to them. Many "believe" in the standard scientology dogma, and think modern management is just run by an asthmatic dwarf.

Others think that Hubbard was on to something, but wasn't always right, or was only right as often as a stopped clock is right, but that when he was right, he was worth listening to.

However, for a pretty accurate understanding of how most scientologists in the FreeZone believe, just read "The Road to Clear" by Clearbird Publishing.

It's not a mystery. It's scientology, as understood by the parishioners, although perhaps NOT exactly as understood by Hubbard, or by those who are running the organizations. As Veda would say, it's the part of scientology that is the shore story. So long as that's the only part that is engaged in, I find it beneficial and worthwhile, although incapable of delivering "OT", or of creating "Clears".
 

gomorrhan

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes, I know your views regarding this.

However, the book is entitled "The Road to Clear", and that's what most FreeZoners I know relate to. The OT III stuff is, when known, generally regarded as almost unbelievable.
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
So it seems to me that Freezoners can rightfully call themselves Scientologist, but not members of the Church of Scientology. Just as when Martin Luther split from the Catholic Church of Rome he could still call him self a Christian. A person’s religion is determined what the person believes and is applying in life. It is not determined by administrative authorities whether it is the Pope or David Miscaviage.

The Anabaptist Jacques

As most of Scientology has earlier and deeper roots - at best Scio is a Johnny come lately gatherer of much of those earlier deeper roots - once you pierce the Scio Matrix - and get your deeper roots.....being told you are a Scientologist when you obviously are not - then acts as an enforced wrong item.

I've been processesing people on their Own Goals, Own Games and Own Identities for almost 50 years - (of course most of my clients are squirrels) - not once has a client given their Prime Identity the name of "A Scientologist" - nor for that matter "A Freezoner" or "An Independent."

Finding out what you really are, who you really are, what your OWN wants are, what your own Interests are, What Games of your Own trully are, What your OWN Prime Identities are that you need to wear in order to what you love to Be - Do - and Have - are extraordinary steps forward to living a happier life.

Alan
 
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Div6

Crusader
Wow. Someone with the word "anabaptist" in their nick stirring the pot.

Does any one else see the irony in this?


Civilizations on this planet have a well documented history of vilifying anything they don't understand. For a humorous illustration of this, you can read
Lexicon of Musical Invective: Critical Assaults on Composers Since Beethoven's Time
by Nicolas Slonimsky

It is amazing just how much invective these creative types managed to engender in their time. As an example: "Beethovens Second Symphony is a crass monster, a hideously writhing wounded dragon, that refuses to expire, and though bleeding in the finale furiously beats about with its tail erect."
[Zeitung fur die Elegant Welt, Vienna, May 1804]


TL,DR People will criticize that which they do not understand.
(Cycle of an overt and everything...)
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
Nice groomed for TV, but wht a crock! TR0 was out. He was on the hop the whole time looking for answers. This guy is not OSA; he had not been drilled anough deal with the media. His changes of subject were obvious without being blatant. Heber would have done a far better job, and would have had the audience spellbound--so why is he in the SP hall?
 

Veda

Sponsor
Nice groomed for TV, but wht a crock! TR0 was out. He was on the hop the whole time looking for answers. This guy is not OSA; he had not been drilled anough deal with the media. His changes of subject were obvious without being blatant. Heber would have done a far better job, and would have had the audience spellbound--so why is he in the SP hall?

I tried to find the video of Heber doing his dismissive smirk at the mention of Xenu, but couldn't locate it.

The "Church" of Scientology has OT 3 on its Grade Chart, and the Scientology Freezone promotes itself as an alternative to the "C" of $ for those wanting to do their OT levels (OT 1 - 7 or 8), and both do the "Xenu who?" routine.

What's funny is that neither can get their stories straight.

Or maybe it's sad.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Wow. Someone with the word "anabaptist" in their nick stirring the pot.

Does any one else see the irony in this?

The irony I see is that, in keeping with TAJ's description of Scientology 'discussion tactics' TAJ himself is being attacked, rather than his discussion points.

TL,DR People will criticize that which they do not understand.
(Cycle of an overt and everything...)

People will also criticize what they *do* understand. Hubbard's 'theory' that understanding = agreement is palpably false.

Zinj
 
Wow. Someone with the word "anabaptist" in their nick stirring the pot.

Does any one else see the irony in this?


Civilizations on this planet have a well documented history of vilifying anything they don't understand. For a humorous illustration of this, you can read
Lexicon of Musical Invective: Critical Assaults on Composers Since Beethoven's Time
by Nicolas Slonimsky

It is amazing just how much invective these creative types managed to engender in their time. As an example: "Beethovens Second Symphony is a crass monster, a hideously writhing wounded dragon, that refuses to expire, and though bleeding in the finale furiously beats about with its tail erect."
[Zeitung fur die Elegant Welt, Vienna, May 1804]


TL,DR People will criticize that which they do not understand.
(Cycle of an overt and everything...)

I think you're trying to be dismissive of me, but you're comments are a bit non-sequitor within themselves, so I'm not sure. I have been in Scientology for well over 30 years. So I think I know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about my experiences with Scientology.
Hubbard's work is not a symphony. He isn't a Beethoven. The cycle of an overt and everything... is your discursively created, socially constructed, opinion. My point has been that scientology training and processing debilitates a person's ability to reason properly. This is manifest in how Scientologist and Freezoners reason.
The mental distortions are manifest by the following:
1) The tendency to almost exclusively use reduction reasoning and logically false comparisons to most things. By reduction reasoning I mean breaking things down to the tiniest part in order that they can then compare apples to oranges.
2)The tendency to only categorize and use similes in their discussions.
3) The tendency when they can’t persuade another to deftly change the point being discussed to another point which the other person may agree with, and try to persuade others they are right by showing their agreement on the point they have switched to.

Your argument seems to fall into the categories I've marked in bold.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
Scientologically, free zoners are squirrels.

Having read so many materials where the meaning was so much more than the words on the page, I was open to the concept that perhaps Xenu and his story would mean more to someone who was ready to receive that information, but as the story was leaked mroe and more by people who have done it, I came to dismiss it more strongly.

Like The Illusionist said: If BTs are real, why aren't we befriending them, and uniting into a stronger entity?
 

Div6

Crusader
I think you're trying to be dismissive of me, but you're comments are a bit non-sequitor within themselves, so I'm not sure. I have been in Scientology for well over 30 years. So I think I know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about my experiences with Scientology.
Hubbard's work is not a symphony. He isn't a Beethoven. The cycle of an overt and everything... is your discursively created, socially constructed, opinion. My point has been that scientology training and processing debilitates a person's ability to reason properly. This is manifest in how Scientologist and Freezoners reason.
The mental distortions are manifest by the following:
1) The tendency to almost exclusively use reduction reasoning and logically false comparisons to most things. By reduction reasoning I mean breaking things down to the tiniest part in order that they can then compare apples to oranges.
2)The tendency to only categorize and use similes in their discussions.
3) The tendency when they can’t persuade another to deftly change the point being discussed to another point which the other person may agree with, and try to persuade others they are right by showing their agreement on the point they have switched to.

Your argument seems to fall into the categories I've marked in bold.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I'm not trying to be oblique, I am just wondering of what importance ANY of these labels are. The irony being that Anabaptists, Bogomils, Cathars, and any number of other "schismatic" groups have been singled out in the past and hunted down and killed for "being different". (Does that violate Point #1?)

Hubbards work was "creative". Of what can be legitimately argued, and has been and will be. My point was only that exposure to the unfamiliar can breed strange ideas and alienation.

I also would say that your assertion that "My point has been that scientology training and processing debilitates a person's ability to reason properly" is a flawed assertion. You could substitute "military" for "scientology" for example, and have an equally arguable statement. But since you made the assertion, the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise it is simply an exercise in demagoguery.
 
I'm not trying to be oblique, I am just wondering of what importance ANY of these labels are. The irony being that Anabaptists, Bogomils, Cathars, and any number of other "schismatic" groups have been singled out in the past and hunted down and killed for "being different". (Does that violate Point #1?)

Hubbards work was "creative". Of what can be legitimately argued, and has been and will be. My point was only that exposure to the unfamiliar can breed strange ideas and alienation.

I also would say that your assertion that "My point has been that scientology training and processing debilitates a person's ability to reason properly" is a flawed assertion. You could substitute "military" for "scientology" for example, and have an equally arguable statement. But since you made the assertion, the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise it is simply an exercise in demagoguery.

I think my proof is in the reasoning demonstrated on these discussion boards. I expanded my list of how the debilitated reasoning manifest itself. But your answer itself I believe is some proof. But here goes:
The mental distortions are manifest by the following:
1) The tendency to almost exclusively use reduction reasoning and logically false comparisons to most things. By reduction reasoning I mean breaking things down to the tiniest part in order that they can then compare apples to oranges, or reversely, argue that apples can‘t be compared to apples..
2)The tendency to only categorize and use similes in their discussions. By this is meant the tendency to refer to general statements of categories, such as SPs, PTS, 3rd Dynamic, 3rd Party Law, etc., and using these concepts as substitutes for understanding the complexity and nuances of a pluralistic society. This substitution of categories for understanding is evidenced when discussing particular incidents. When referring to particulars they use the abstract concepts for similes.
3) The tendency when they can’t persuade another to deftly change the point being discussed to another point, which the other person may agree with, and then try to persuade others that their first point must be right because there is agreement on the point to which they have switched. For example, “Ron is a genius. He gets criticized and attacked. Look how Beethoven was attacked.” (Who doesn’t think Beethoven was a genius?)
4) The tendency to treat abstract ideas as facts, and to treat facts as abstract ideas.
Watch the arguments made on ESBM by Freezoners and Scientologists and see if you can find examples of what I am talking about.
This deterioration in reasoning I mentioned above seems to be present with the Freezoners as well as Scientologists. You can take the person out of Scientology, but if the person is in the Freezone, you can’t take the Scientology out of the person.

The list will probably expand. As far as Scientology being the cause of it, I am working on that. To show that will take more than a few lines.

If it seems that I am smug about this, I apologize. I don't feel smug. I feel what many people do when they realize that an awful lot of good people with good intentins where tricked, coerced, belittled, and then cast aside. So there is a tinge of contempt to those who try to apologize for the crimes. Also, it doesn't make me pleased to see the warp reasoning displayed by Scientologists and many exes who still practice and believe in Scientology display. Its a human and social tragedy really. And I really despise the hubris that Scientologist display. Scientology is applied fascism as far as I'm concerned. Maybe some day I'll write a book about it. Maybe, thanks to others, I won't have to.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I have to disagree with some of the critics who I hold in high esteem. Freezoners are Scientologists, just as Lutherans are Christians.

...

So it seems to me that Freezoners can rightfully call themselves Scientologist, but not members of the Church of Scientology. Just as when Martin Luther split from the Catholic Church of Rome he could still call him self a Christian. A person’s religion is determined what the person believes and is applying in life. It is not determined by administrative authorities whether it is the Pope or David Miscaviage.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Catholics and Lutherans et al are all Christians. But that argument does not then validate the "FZers are Scientologists" - Lutherans are NOT Catholics, for example.

That the CofS and the FZers both sort of believe in Hubbard's drivel would make them Hubbardians (Hubbardists, Drivellists?) or some such generic term. Scientologists are, IMHO, the label that Hubbard, as the originator of the term, is free to decide how it should be bestowed. When Luther and his followers left the Roman Catholic Church they did not call themselves Catholics.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I also would say that your assertion that "My point has been that scientology training and processing debilitates a person's ability to reason properly" is a flawed assertion. You could substitute "military" for "scientology" for example, and have an equally arguable statement.

I think this assertion would fit within TAJ's #1, but, my description/name for that particular 'handling method' would be - 'It's All The Same', something one hears repeatedly from Scientologists attempting to justify what is obviously indefensible.

It involves reducing any criticism/argument to a low enough 'common denominator' that, for example, an H-Bomb is the equivalent of a popped cork, or calling someone a doo-doohead is the equivalent of gassing them in ovens.

It's All The Same

Zinj
 
Catholics and Lutherans et al are all Christians. But that argument does not then validate the "FZers are Scientologists" - Lutherans are NOT Catholics, for example.

That the CofS and the FZers both sort of believe in Hubbard's drivel would make them Hubbardians (Hubbardists, Drivellists?) or some such generic term. Scientologists are, IMHO, the label that Hubbard, as the originator of the term, is free to decide how it should be bestowed. When Luther and his followers left the Roman Catholic Church they did not call themselves Catholics.

Good point. I lump them together for two reasons: They practice their brand of Scientology just like the Lutherns practice their brand of Christianity. So I distinquished between Scientology as concepts and the Church of Scientology as an administrated organizational structure. If they are using Scientology, and auditing Scientology, then they are Scientologist. In the American Civil War both sides considered themselves true inheritors of American ideas. But if Freezoners quack like Scientologist, walk like Scientologist, and audit Scientology processes, they're Scientologist, regardless of what some orthodox Church ethics officer thinks. (Hell, both sides think they are the orthodox ones.)
Having said all that, I still think both grooups are batshit crazy for using Scientology.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 
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