TRUE friendship possible in Scientology?

[MrNobody]

This is very good, and I just have a little bit to add - to the friendship issue. Out here in the wog world, it isn't easy to make GOOD friends either. When the chips are down, you find out who your true friends are - and believe me, it won't be who you think. It will SURPRISE you. But you WILL know.

People are flakey everywhere, and most that you meet will be out for themselves, when it comes down to it. Very rarely will you find a true and good friend. When you do, KEEP THEM CLOSE (even through long distance - and over long years). Also, remember, just because YOU feel like a good friend, and ARE a good friend, does not mean they are or will be.

When it comes down to it, you can count your true friends on one hand. And THEY are precious, worth more than gold. Treat them well, and be loyal and true. If they are not that to you, then 'disconnect' - be my guest - OR just keep them at arms length, as an aquaintence, and do not trust or depend on them.

I agree with the "you can count your true friends on one hand" part, because I would say that I have almost a handfull of GOOD friends, but I disagree with the "KEEP THEM CLOSE" part, so here's how I see it:

Every human has his/her own "path of life". Sometimes someone just crosses your path for a second, sometimes someone's path goes closely parallel to your own path for quite some time (these are the close friendships), until their life takes a sudden turn and they disappear in the distant fogs of time.

Now for the REAL friends: There's no need to keep them close -your paths will cross again and again anyway.

 

[Lurker5]

OK - I think that was what I meant to say - LOL

I agree with the "you can count your true friends on one hand" part, because I would say that I have almost a handfull of GOOD friends, but I disagree with the "KEEP THEM CLOSE" part, so here's how I see it:

Every human has his/her own "path of life". Sometimes someone just crosses your path for a second, sometimes someone's path goes closely parallel to your own path for quite some time (these are the close friendships), until their life takes a sudden turn and they disappear in the distant fogs of time.

Now for the REAL friends: There's no need to keep them close -your paths will cross again and again anyway.

Oops - I think that is what I meant, as I have a friends, the handful, I haven't SEEN is years, but when we do see each other, we pick up where we left off, like it was yesterday. I meant, keep them close - in heart, even over long distances, long periods. They don't have to be physically close at all. :wink2:

 

[lkwdblds]

My FSM Harry - Typical Case in Point

My original FSM Harry is a typical case in point. He got my brother and me in the same day, got us to an into lecture at L.A. Org, we both signed up and he met us after the lecture and went for coffee. The next 2 weeks or so, he met with us every day and called every day to see how we were doing.

CASE#1 - Harry drops my brother. My brother was suicidal and had some very big case issues. When he met Harrty, his whole outlook improved and Harry provided purpose to his life. Suddenly, one day, Harry stopped calling him or returning his calls. My bother went into depression.

Harry was still friendly with me, more so than ever. I called him to discuss my brother. He said that he shared many facets of case with my brother and my brother was starting to key him in and make him non sessionable in his auditing so he had to "cut the comm line." I said, couldn't you have met with him and explained this to him, given him a chance to understand or perhaps give him a chance to improve. Harry said he should have done that but he had too heavy of a case to do it and could only confront cutting the comm line.

Harry and I continued our freindship and got closer and closer and were each others best friend for one year and then I joined the Sea Org. After that, of course my time was taken up but he would come by the Org perhaps two days a week and I would always see him on my "libs" day off. We had this relationship for two years and then I got promoted to the "Apollo". Harry took me out for an expensive dinner with wine and mixed drinks a day or two before I left for the Apollo. On the Apollo, I wrote to him regulary. I only lasted there 2 months and requested to leave and was off loaded. I returned to L.A., worked up the formulas to Non Existence and started making payments on my Freeloader debts and ony then called Harry with enthusiasm and happiness about the prospects of reconnecting with my old best friend now that I was out of the S.O. but still very much a committed Scientologist.

Guess what happened. You got it.

CASE #2 - Harry dumped me. Just like with my brother, when I called Harry, he answered and was very nervous and edgy and refused my offer to get together and told me he could not talk right now and would have to hang up now because he was just leaving when I called. I told him I would like to meet for coffee and that I was in good standing again and wanted to explain to him what happened on the Apollo. He said that he was sure that I tried hard and meant well but he did not want to hear anything at all about it. He pleaded with me not to tell him any of the details. I realized that the same thing had happened to me as what happened to my brother 3 years earlier, Harry had dumped me. My best friend had dumped me! He did it because I was no longer safe for him and any contact with me would mess up his case and his progress up the bridge. In all honesty, I was persistent and we saw each other perhaps once a month and exchanged an occasional phone call. I was doing 90% of the reaching. The friendship continued in this reduced capacity for about 4 years and then around 1980 it ended. I married in May 1981 and had lost touch with Harry about a year and a half earlier so he didn't even know I was married. In 1984 I ran into him with my wife and I was now safe again and he invited us to a party he was having at his house and we went and then lost touch again. We met at Flag by chance in 1991 and my last sighting was at the New Year's Eve Org Party On Jan 1, 1999. He talked to me animatedly for 5 minutes, I met his 5 year old daughter and than he moved on. That was it. He moved to Clearwater, I never got any notification that he had moved let alone his address and phone number. I no longer cared. If I was on a desert island with only him, I would have no interest in speaking with him. I did see his picture once, thumbing through a slang dictionary. It was shown under the heading "fair weather friend".

THE CHURCH of Scientology. In this Church, your fellow congregation members do not tend you in times of travail and need and take care of you. Instead you become unsafe for them to communicate with. A three year stint as one's best friend can be ended in 5 minutes or less without even a letter or a phone call. One moment a person is your best friend and the next minute he is unsafe to be around and a pariah or social outcast.

TWO QUESTIONS WHICH ARISE:
#1. Do you really need friends such as Harry?
#2. Should your Church really be the C of S?

I was Harry's best friend, I would have done anything to help him, to be there for him to the end of our lives. When he was my best friend, he did not like me for who I am but only me, the winning Scientologist, in a higher condition. Me the being he never knew and when he had the chance to know me, it wasn't safe for him to do so. Probably within 5 seconds of the moment when he heard that I had left the Apollo, the friendship was over only I did not know it or suspect it. IS THIS ANY WAY TO RUN A NAVY? IS THIS ANY WAY TO RUN A CHURCH? IS THIS ANY WAY TO BE A FRIEND?
Lakey

 

[paul.spiritualquest]

My original FSM Harry is a typical case in point. He got my brother and me in the same day, got us to an into lecture at L.A. Org, we both signed up and he met us after the lecture and went for coffee. The next 2 weeks or so, he met with us every day and called every day to see how we were doing.

CASE#1 - Harry drops my brother. My brother was suicidal and had some very big case issues. When he met Harrty, his whole outlook improved and Harry provided purpose to his life. Suddenly, one day, Harry stopped calling him or returning his calls. My bother went into depression.

Harry was still friendly with me, more so than ever. I called him to discuss my brother. He said that he shared many facets of case with my brother and my brother was starting to key him in and make him non sessionable in his auditing so he had to "cut the comm line." I said, couldn't you have met with him and explained this to him, given him a chance to understand or perhaps give him a chance to improve. Harry said he should have done that but he had too heavy of a case to do it and could only confront cutting the comm line.

Harry and I continued our freindship and got closer and closer and were each others best friend for one year and then I joined the Sea Org. After that, of course my time was taken up but he would come by the Org perhaps two days a week and I would always see him on my "libs" day off. We had this relationship for two years and then I got promoted to the "Apollo". Harry took me out for an expensive dinner with wine and mixed drinks a day or two before I left for the Apollo. On the Apollo, I wrote to him regularaly. I only lasted there 2 months and requested to leave and was off loaded. I returned to L.A., worked up the formulas to Non Existence and started making payments on my Freeloader debts and ony then called Harry with enthusiasm and happiness about the prospects of reconnecting with my old best friend now that I was out of the S.O. but still very much a committed Scientologist.

Guess what happened. You got it.

CASE #2 - Harry dumped me. Just like with my brother, when I called Harry, he answered and was very nervous and edgy and refused my offer to get together and told me he could not talk right now and would have to hang up now because he was just leaving when I called. I told him I would like to meet for coffee and that I was in good standing again and wanted to explain to him what happened on the Apollo. He said that he was sure that I tried hard and meant well but he did not want to hear anything at all about it. He pleaded with me not to tell him any of the details. I realized that the same thing had happened to me as what happened to my brother 3 years earlier, Harry had dumped me. My best friend had dumped me! He did it because I was no longer safe for him and any contact with me would mess up his case and his progress up the bridge.

THE CHURCH of Scientology. In this Church, your fellow congregation members do not tend you in times of travail and need and take care of you. Instead you become unsafe for them to communicate with. A three year stint as one's best friend can be ended in 5 minutes or less without even a letter or a phone call. One moment a person is your best friend and the next minute he is unsafe to be around and a pariah or social outcast.

TWO QUESTIONS WHICH ARISE:
#1. Do you really need friends such as Harry?
#2. Should your Church really be the C of S?

I was Harry's best friend, I would have done anything to help him, to be there for him to the end of our lives. When he was my best friend, he did not like me for who I am but only me, the winning Scientologist, in a higher condition. Me the being he never knew and when he had the chance to know me, it wasn't safe for him to do so. Probably within 5 seconds of the moment when he heard that I had left the Apollo, the friendship was over only I did not know it or suspect it. IS THIS ANY WAY TO RUN A NAY? IS THIS ANY WAY TO RUN A CHURCH? IS THIS ANY WAY TO BE A FRIEND?
Lakey

Exactly. You got my point, true friendship is not possible with members. Specially if there are very much "in". Sorry, for your personal story.

 

[me myself & i]

I know what you mean, Paul.

I never did any Scn services before becoming a Sea Org member, so my views on friendships created when in Scn (which for me, always meant when in the SO, too) may be from a different perspective.

I had some true friends in the SO. Real friends, loyal friends. Friends willing to break rules with me, friends I had fun with and who always remembered my birthday. Friends I could cry, dance, sing, hug and tell anything. Friends I could drop in on unexpectedly for a meaningless chat. Although of course, most chats had something to do with Scn or the SO.

When I left and began adjusting to life outside Scn, the friendships became strained. Eventually we stopped talking altogether, sort of drifted off and apart from each other. That hurt - especially when I started having the same sort of thoughts you are having now. Was it a real friendship or was it all because of Scientology? At the time, I thought it was all because of Scientology and was extremely disappointed.

When my old friends started finding me again and me them, some after 23 years of separation, I found the love, loyalty and friendship was still there. We were out, but the friendships were still intact that were made when we were both in.

Our lives are different - kids, families, careers. We have to start all over again rediscovering each other, finding out what we now do and don't have in common and filling in the lost gaps of our lives. But the re-discovery process itself is a bit like falling in love again (friendship-wise) with an added bonus - there is no longer any worry that the other person does not feel the same way.I already know who they basically are, that I love them, that they know me and love me for who I am, regardless of what has transpired between.
And I don't have to ever again worry about losing them, no matter how much time or change transpires in our lives.

Again, the S.O.may be a bit different. The friendship bonds there are incredibly strong; something I am not sure all exScn and exstaff who were not S.O. can understand. How could it be otherwise? We spent more time with each other in a year than most married couples in the real world could spend together in ten years, and went through times of pain, success and laughter, all of which only strengthened those bonds.

When everything else was stripped away, friendship and love was what we had. The lasting kind.

Yes, I believe true friendships can definitely be made in Scientology. I think friendships only sleep when one is in and the other out, until both are together in an environment where they can freely express their friendships again.

Beautifully spoken.

Thank you.

(and your friends)

 

[byte301]

I made some true friends in scientology. They are almost all out now.

The people that I really care about that are still in are not themselves as far as I'm concerned. I saw their true heart at one time or another. I will never give up on them even though I count them as the walking dead at this point.

Next week they may be out. It works that way with this cult.

Don't count them out.

 

[The Clam]

when I was in the church I found hanging out in the hood with thugs far more interesting. Scnist were so damn boring and those rich scns my god they would sit around and compare notes of their upstat food and accommodation at flag. Besides who want to hang out with someone who looking to write you up for having a good time at the titty bar or get stumbling drunk or even a good bar fight.

 

[byte301]

when I was in the church I found hanging out in the hood with thugs far more interesting. Scnist were so damn boring and those rich scns my god they would sit around and compare notes of their upstat food and accommodation at flag. Besides who want to hang out with someone who looking to write you up for having a good time at the titty bar or get stumbling drunk or even a good bar fight.

Well, I was in a really small mission in a small town. I think we alll got close because it was so small. Plus it was back in the 70's before things got REALLY rotten.

But I do agree that a lot of scilons were boring.

 

[Lucretia]

Exactly. You got my point, true friendship is not possible with members.

I agree. I was very good "friends" with two fellow staff members. They were getting married and sent out invitations etc. I was not invited because I was in a lower condition at the time. When I got out of my lower condition, all was lovey-dovey again. In $cn you've only got "friends" if you are upstat. What sort of friendship is that??

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

My friends, going in, are still my friends, long after we left.
My mate, who I met "in" is still with me.

friends are friends

associates are just that

 

[lkwdblds]

Your summary says it all

My friends, going in, are still my friends, long after we left.
My mate, who I met "in" is still with me.

friends are friends

associates are just that

Carmelo, I think your summary says it all. My friends going in, are still my friends too, such as Ken, Harry's non Scientology cousin. With a few rare exceptions, I would call all of those who we meet and believed were our friends while in C of S, only associates. What about the one we thought was our best friend and the greatest friend ever, of mankind, LRH? When one is out is he still our friend or does he too become only a former associate?
Lakey

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Carmelo, I think your summary says it all. My friends going in, are still my friends too, such as Ken, Harry's non Scientology cousin. With a few rare exceptions, I would call all of those who we meet and believed were our friends while in C of S, only associates. What about the one we thought was our best friend and the greatest friend ever, of mankind, LRH? When one is out is he still our friend or does he too become only a former associate?
Lakey

He was never my friend. My friends, who had known him personally at Washington, D.C. and St. Hill, who continued to know the score (by way of the rumor line), didn't push the party line. They called it as they saw it.

We were doing something fun, and at the time, valuable. LRH was the head of the firm. He wasn't infallible.

The tech I walked away with was worth every penny and every hour I spent working and studying. i'd do it all again.

I left after 8 years (from 68 to 76). The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow was all illusory. It was never sold to me as true by my friends. When i first went to lA to go Clear, I was WARNED about the Sea Org. What not to say. Certainly not to join it.

Part of the training and auditing I got stiffened my resolve in terms of perceiving and not knuckling under to evil and robotism.

 

[Mest Lover]

I had no friends while in.
I recognized early that anyone willing to disconnect from you for their religion was someone not to be trusted as a friend.

The 1 friend I had that was in was a lifelong friend who helped me when I finally was set free. At that point, he was also no longer in. He was and still is an athiest.

 

[paul.spiritualquest]

Update

He was never my friend. My friends, who had known him personally at Washington, D.C. and St. Hill, who continued to know the score (by way of the rumor line), didn't push the party line. They called it as they saw it.

We were doing something fun, and at the time, valuable. LRH was the head of the firm. He wasn't infallible.

The tech I walked away with was worth every penny and every hour I spent working and studying. i'd do it all again.

I left after 8 years (from 68 to 76). The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow was all illusory. It was never sold to me as true by my friends. When i first went to lA to go Clear, I was WARNED about the Sea Org. What not to say. Certainly not to join it.

Part of the training and auditing I got stiffened my resolve in terms of perceiving and not knuckling under to evil and robotism.

I really believe you lived another era in Scn. Also what Lakey says is true, there are higher expectations for SO, etc...

Update on my friend:

On another comment in this thread, I never pushed the Miscavige thing on him. I mean the guy has eyes and ears, he is constantly commenting outpoints and seeing them, here and there, but obviously doesn´t want to use them much in the end: eyes and ears. The short discussion was ended on "there are more pluspoints". He clearly did his doubt formula. Another pearl was "Mayo did really alter-is a confidential reference, and two non-confidential bulletins." They simply won´t see. Now he is paying the next load for his wife´s intensives...

You simply cannot be fully sincere, and stay close friends. Let´s be honest here, if I just shared 1/1000th, of what I have been posting, reading, or seeing in internet, or talking with people, I would get heavily REPORTED by him. What for? What for getting in unnecessary trouble? I can "quitely and without sorrow" leave, and that´s the stand I have on leaving at this point.

But it is a Gestapo group, period. Doublethink, no true friendship, mind police by your closest "friends" and associates. That definitely is very far from my definition of friendship. I still have a moral debt with the guy, and he is a great person, deep in his heart. He has been over 35 yrs. plus inside, I noticed how much he needs it for his EGO. He defines himself as the tech holder, he is very good at helping people with it outside of the church, but I noticed, one part is to feed his ego. He listens to LRH´s tapes daily on his car. He knows 100s of references verbatim, including date of issue. He won´t read anything not LRH, although I recomended him at least 10 other books.

Another thing, on this issue. I was fucked up, I mean big time, around 8-12 months ago. All my world: inner and outer collided completely, you believe the org would help, the super EDs, that were your best friends? Did I have the lepra now that I was in trouble? Was I the PTS to avoid? Or could I have been an out-ethics cat or just a possible SP? Not even the HGC cared to call, with payed hours. Another "best friend" became a staff member, who hang around almost daily, and I was not worth even a phone call. Thanks to that crash, it opened my eyes. The reges were gone, what was false admiration turned into watching a leper. That guy was the only one there, helping, daily. I can´t forget that. Another guy, a "wog" (how I despise that word, it is sooo derogatory , just using it out of a mistype... ), a lawyer, helped me out of that truly unfair situation, we won the court case, it had been a completely unjust situation, he never charged a penny, he just helped, till I was out of the problem. This was another eye opener. Now we are best friends, and he got payed all his efforts duly at the end.

It is not the first time in my 17 years in that microuniverse of Scn. that I have been in trouble. And EVERYTIME I needed true help or friendship, it was either "payed" help or no help. Friendship is correlated to standing and PR inside. I´ve seen that TIME after TIME. If somebody helped you, it was for an agenda, either regging, recruting, or some other reason. I´ve only once, with the guy mentioned above experienced simple help.

I believe a true friend, just helps, no matter what.

 

[Gottabrain]

This is a great thread.

One thing mentioned a lot in the comments here by exScn is reporting on each other when in Scn.

I would like to hear more about that.

I was never CL IV org staff, nor a Scn before the SO.

My experience in the SO was very different than that. We rarely ever reported on each other at AOLA, unless absolutely necessary or maybe for a cram or tech outness. KRs were a no-no amongst the staff there; only Newbies did it. Crams were preferred.

What did other people experience on this, in and out of the SO, Cl IV Orgs or as public? I know very little about this happening.

 

[Mest Lover]

What did other people experience on this, in and out of the SO, Cl IV Orgs or as public? I know very little about this happening.

I used to get chits for not waking a guy up when he asked me to, eventually i just started putting his little wake up notes in my ethics folder marked "Fell Off TM." I was not an alarm clock, that was not my thing. and actually I enjoyed getting KRs cuz it made me look all the worse to them.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Update on my friend:

You simply cannot be fully sincere, and stay close friends. Let´s be honest here, if I just shared 1/1000th, of what I have been posting, reading, or seeing in internet, or talking with people, I would get heavily REPORTED by him. What for? What for getting in unnecessary trouble? I can "quitely and without sorrow" leave, and that´s the stand I have on leaving at this point.

But it is a Gestapo group, period. Doublethink, no true friendship, mind police by your closest "friends" and associates. That definitely is very far from my definition of friendship. I still have a moral debt with the guy, and he is a great person, deep in his heart.

I have a friend, who joined the sea org about 5 years ago. For a decade or more we had talked an hour at a time over coffee several days a week. We talked about everything under the sun except what was wrong with scientology and the auditing I give others outside the Co$. We had both done Clear and OT stuff decades ago. We lived in the same town for decades. We both lost our shirts in the recession of 1980. We both earned it back. I never tried to save him from the Evil Empire. He never tried to save me from Hell and Damnation.

We're both health and nutrition conscious. He has Fuck You money. He joined the SO because he felt a calling to serve. If he ever sees the irregularities, he can walk with no downside.

I have any number of friends still "in." Just because YOU find the Co$ an absolute black hole doesn't mean your friend does. My thoughts on your actions of friendship run to: don't run your negative shit on him. Share positive stuff that each of you hold valuable. Everything from the new song or download on your ipod to politics and what you're eating, drinking, to what you're seeing at the movie theater. Friends have wide ranging discussions, not just the date of the HCOB on R3R commands.

my friends know that I like Jimmy Buffett, Frank Sinatra, Bob Marley, Toby Keith, -- I know what their tastes are.

I have a lot of friends, family and a mate who are class Vllls. We never talk about HCOBs, tapes, etc. We may talk tech, but it is ours not some buggered church's.

We continue to share jokes, stories, and personal stuff by e mail and phone.

 

[Kutta]

From Gottabrain:

My experience in the SO was very different than that. We rarely ever reported on each other at AOLA, unless absolutely necessary or maybe for a cram or tech outness. KRs were a no-no amongst the staff there; only Newbies did it. Crams were preferred.

I was in the SO at St Hill from about 1978-81. Until I started reading here on ESBM last June, I had never heard of a KR. AFAIK no staff used them. Nor did we cram each other. Of course a CS could cram an auditor, but otherwise, I never heard of it. We must have been real dilettantes! LOL

I really felt the cutting off from fellow SO members when I left. But thinking about it of late, I have realized that in fact, I never had a real, free-flowing, heart to heart conversation with anyone there. There just wasn't the time or safe space to build a true friendship. There were many for whom I felt a good friendly vibe (in passing during the working days and nights), and a few for whom I didn't, but the conditions did not allow me to develop any long lasting true friendships.

I have been most sorry that my friendship with Pat and Harry Bloomberg who got me into Scientology in NZ and who were salt of the earth type people was cyboshed (?sp) by disconnection policies, even though I left in good standing having routed out. Then again, I was never presented with any conditions to suffer on up or a Freeloader debt. So much occurred, or more exactly didn't occur, during my short spell in the SO at SH, that after reading here on ESBM I know I was lucky to escape the far worse experiences of others. It is a wonder I wasn't RPFed for my big flunk when sent to Flag for training. Instead I got a week or so going to the beach and a flight back to the UK and my kids.

Sorry, gone off topic!

 

[Gottabrain]

Thanks, MEST Lover and Kutta. Would love to hear from former FSO and ASHO staff, as well as ex-public and more CL IV & mission ex staff.

I wonder if the different attitudes from different orgs led to those friendships lasting or not? Writing KRs on a friend seems such a nasty thing to do.

 

[uniquemand]

Friendship is possible. However, it is always secondary to the greater good. I'm a believer that the big ol' world will be just fine with or without me and my purposes and dreams. Therefore, I choose to put my relationships in front of any purpose or group. After all, a group is a bunch of different relationships. If they all degrade, so does the group. So long as the "Church" acts like a cult, and puts it's own welfare and mission in front of the welfare of their parishioners and staff, they are doomed, and I hope they end quickly with minimal damage to public and staff.