My post was of course a spoof of the "bollocks" that Ron used to spew forth about such things. I wonder if there is a Smillie that can indicate irony, so as not to be misunderstood.
Where did L Ron steal Xenu from?
- Thread starter dr3k
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My post was of course a spoof of the "bollocks" that Ron used to spew forth about such things. I wonder if there is a Smillie that can indicate irony, so as not to be misunderstood.
You are entirely correct. The layers of disguise were thicker in the 70s and, especially in the outer orgs and missions (the further away from LRH the better!) it was possible to achieve a fairly high degree of mental healing. I am not so blind, however, to ignore the elements of suggestion/evaluation that the tech was laced with. And one cannot ignore the control factors Ron laced the tech with from upper indocs to taking session notes.
I agree that Ron used positive improvement tech to sucker in more men and elemental spirits to become his slaves. This is why even those of us in the outer orgs and missions eventually fell foul of his mind-sucking cult.
It was a very dirty game that LRH was playing with us. 
But for a while it was fun!
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Ok, so long as you are not viewing the info with a fixed idea that there was no suggestion involved, then that is fine.
Did my description of the general ambience as regards movies and peer pressure and whispers about Marcab and Ron's space opera stuff in his lectures and issues not strike any resonance with your experience?
Are you saying you were not encouraged to expect to run particular types of incidents in your auditing?
Yes, as a Dianetic intern and PC I was fully aware of these things. Myself and my PCs regularly ran the types of incidents that Ron described and suggested to us. Of course implants sometimes didn't erase or go Earlier Similar too well, but L3RD assessments would dig us out by indicating it was not our incident and such stuff. So the suggestions carried on being evaluated for us.
We all knew that some of the History of Man and Ron's Space Opera stuff got fully handled later on, on the confidential courses. This was suggested, stated and evaluated for us by Ron. So meantime we just kept winning, just like Ron said we would - his tech was so fantastically accurate! <irony>
Royal Prince Xenu
Trust the Psi Corps.
On the contrary, I fully understood the humor intent. It was an ideal opportunity to use one of my favorite "swear words", but you'll have to be much more creative before I resort to the rudest word in the galaxy.
nozeno
Gold Meritorious Patron
Maybe I'm missing your point but I'm not assuming anything. It's going to take more evidence than someone holding on to one or two cans and imagining something that makes a little needle jump about.
Hanover Fist
Patron with Honors
The problem with scientology is that it does depend on the credibility of its 'source'. That is why it is fair to attack Hubbard. He made a multitude of claims about reality. Per Hubbard, these claims (engrams, aliens, whole-track, psychs=devil, OTIII nonsense, etc...) were fact. Objective, observable, concrete fact. He also used a myriad of methods cribbed from many sources and glommed them all together as a means to get people to swallow his 'truth'. I don't question the efficacy of his methods in this respect. And again, the gains need to be there for the operant conditioning to take hold.
When research begins to show that Hubbard was an avid drug abuser with a history of dabbling in the 'dark arts' alarm bells should start to go off. When it has been shown that he was a prolific liar, shouldn't that call his credibility into doubt? When it becomes more and more clear that he was at the least a manic-depressive and most likely a paranoid schizophrenic, doesn't that call his claims into question? The other big difference between Hubbard and the likes of Galileo and Copernicus, is that anyone with the tools can verify what they claim independantly. Such is not possible with scientology or dianetics.
Hubbard did not simply evolve the ideas that came before him (like Buddha, Lao Tzu, Jesus, or Muhammad), he came up with a whole new ball game. Xen(m)u, Marcabians, the universe being trillions of years old, ancient advanced civilizations on Earth, etc... are all easily falsified. There is quite simply zero evidence whatsoever that any of this is remotely true.
And to say that none of this matters, that it is all a subjective game to indicate where the 'charge' is in order to...shit I am no good at this lingo...blow it? is that right? Anyway, that just smacks of a solution looking for a problem. You know if you bang your finger with a hammer it will hurt; then if you take some morphine it will feel better. Does that make the combination morphine-injecting-hammer sound like a good idea?
Hanover Fist
Escalus
Patron Meritorious
Absolutely! It also shows that ultimately his hokus-pokus didn't work. He died as screwed up as anybody else, "psyche-drugs" and all.
Ah, but you are both forgetting that Ron also taught his disciples to dance on the head of a pin!
So your arguments will not knock them off that pin-head I'm afraid.
Regarding the subject of "charge", Ron even said exactly what the nature of "the solution looking for a problem" was. He even told us what his scam was.
He defined auditing as the auditor asking a question which "restimulated" some charge in the PC. The auditor then gets the PC to look into his mind to recover the source of this charge, at which point the charge will erase!
Like all great magicians, he used misdirection and suggestion to hide what was really taking place.
This deliberate "restimultion" of the PC reached its height with his secret, dangerous, confidential, OTIII.
He never let his disciples consider the possibility that it was in fact he himself who was putting the charge there for his wonderful tech to discharge!
So your arguments will not knock them off that pin-head I'm afraid.
Regarding the subject of "charge", Ron even said exactly what the nature of "the solution looking for a problem" was. He even told us what his scam was.
He defined auditing as the auditor asking a question which "restimulated" some charge in the PC. The auditor then gets the PC to look into his mind to recover the source of this charge, at which point the charge will erase!
Like all great magicians, he used misdirection and suggestion to hide what was really taking place.
This deliberate "restimultion" of the PC reached its height with his secret, dangerous, confidential, OTIII.
He never let his disciples consider the possibility that it was in fact he himself who was putting the charge there for his wonderful tech to discharge!
Hanover Fist
Patron with Honors
Exactly! It's a spiritual/psychological shell-game.
Hanover Fist
Hanover Fist
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
Huh? With regard to OT3, fair enough.
But HF is talking about all auditing, is he not? Is this your position too with regard to all auditing, LH?
Paul
Hanover Fist
Patron with Honors
Just to be clear, yes. At this point it is my belief that all auditing was originally intended to prepare the subject for further 'implantation', per Hubbardese. To take it further, if the implantation via auditing is done on too steep a gradient the subject will blow. That is why the really weird stuff is saved for later.
The 'wins' experienced may or may not be real, but there must be wins. If subjects experience nothing positive, they won't come back. And that is where you get them: on the come-back. Ask any drug dealer. The first one is always free.
Hanover Fist
nw2394
Silver Meritorious Patron
No, I do not find that in general.
It is true that I have read material various sources, not just LRH, and found similar things - often quite quickly.
It is equally true that I have read material from various sources, not just LRH, and never been able to find anything similar.
Maybe there are individuals for whom the suggestibility theory seems to indicate - it doesn't do so for me.
Nick
nw2394
Silver Meritorious Patron
Well, it would take more than that for me too.
The meter reads on such things as, to use a fairly general word, trauma. Imagining things tends to make little or no reads on a meter.
Nick
nw2394
Silver Meritorious Patron
Well, it is nice to see that you think there is something positive in it. That is lot closer to the truth than some of the critics who constantly moan on and on about negatives that don't even stand scrutiny.
Nick
nozeno
Gold Meritorious Patron
That I know is not true. My wife was a trained auditor and I used to play with her meter (among other things) and I could make that needle do all sorts of shit by imagining.
nw2394
Silver Meritorious Patron
Yeah - with the sensitivity jacked up - not the same as an LFBD on a hot item. And, even if you are exceptionally good at imagining things that read big, it sure has to cause you to ask just what these galvanic skin responses to thoughts are actually all about - or ought to.
Nick
Hanover Fist
Patron with Honors
There has to be. That is how operant conditioning works. There are also positive aspects to methamphetamine use. That does not make it a good thing, however.
I still believe that the positive gains from auditing could be experienced easier, faster, cheaper, and truer if one sought out Hubbard's original sources. Stripped away from a svengali's (like Hubbard) will-to-power most methods of introspection and meditation are extremely helpful. I cannot argue that. I just believe the evidence shows that Hubbard took these tried and true methods and warped them to suit his ends.
Hanover Fist
Terril park
Sponsor
You believe other methods are faster etc. I havn't really tried others so really can't comment. Similarly you havn't tried scn/dn auditing, so your comments should be taken with a pinch of salt or something. Its not an expert view anyway.
You may wish to see the FZ success stories thread
here. These are peoples experience of auditing on
more or less any part of the " bridge". They are people I know, at least for some time, usually years on our FZ forums. I know those who deliver the services. These stories are pure data. Not made up as COS has done at times.
They prove anything? Probably not. They are some data though.
Again I say the bottom line is does the tech work.
It seems clear it works for some, at least sometime.
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
Where did the topics for "imagining" come from? Did you think them up, or were they random things that were the next item in the list?
For example, there's an e-meter drill where you try and produce needle reactions by thinking of various categories of items (loss, betrayal etc.). The item is given as a general one, and one thinks of specific instances in one's own experience where one suffered a loss etc.
What I mean by items on a list is random specific items like "a big green animal; a grey ghost; a cube-shaped building" as opposed to the vague items above.
I would expect it to be relatively easy to get needle reactions by "imagining" items that have charged incidents underlying them, even if such are uninspected, but not at all easy to get reads with more specific items that one does not choose oneself.
Again, imagining a "sharp pink toy" all by oneself without hint or suggestion from another where one has free rein to pick anything is not the same as plucking the item "sharp pink toy" out of thin air (and possibly one's own past) and giving it to another to imagine.
It is also possible to move the meter needle (and TA) by postulate; something people sometimes do to show off.
Paul
