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PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religion

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

In 35 years I haven't seen that a human being has improved one bit by studying Scientology.

Love
Markus

Neither have I. What I have seen, is people developing the delusion that they are better than people who don't do Scientology.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

I don't think you're arrogant at all, but I think you have your own bias just like everyone else here. Nothing wrong with that - we're human, and humans personalise things. Every judgment we make includes ourselves as a variable - there's no such thing as objectivity in human thinking. Not a bit, no matter how much some people pride themselves on their 'objective' opinions.

I agree with Smilla -- we've all got our own viewpoints, which both motivate us and blind us. To me, that's why discussion and listening is so necessary on hot topics about issues as important as civil rights.

I've followed this thread closely, often with exasperation (because everyone doesn't agree with me ... lol). Through 380+ posts I've learned a lot about my fellow ESMBers (that I didn't know about them before) and broadened my own viewpoint.

Again, Panda, thanks again for the question. And a very sincere thanks to all who are commenting here.

TG1
 
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

Neither have I. What I have seen, is people developing the delusion that they are better than people who don't do Scientology.

Ah! But what were they like BEFORE their involvement with scientology? :)

For some of us it definitely made for an improvement. :whistling:


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:
 

jenni with an eye

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

Horses for courses: Lots of people never heard of Les Dane Sales Closing Techniques either, but you all talked to lots of people who used it on you to keep you buying all those courses you did.

:roflmao: you make me laugh. That's one of the many courses I did do.

Those 'techniques' never worked quite as well on one who had also done the course.:giggle:
 
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio


Glad you laughed. It was intended as partly humorous. But there is also a degree of truth in it.

Not only do you have to consider the 'before' as well as the 'after', but the scope of a life effects people beyond the simplicity of with which cults they may involve themselves. I know of people who were coarsened through their involvement with scientology. I've known people who were coarsened through a life outside of scientology.

A life in the church is not one which I consider to be improving. Still, one size doesn't fit all. I wouldn't have done at all well in the u.s. marine corps, yet I've known several individuals for whom it was exactly what they needed in their lives. Same with monotheistic religions. Different strokes, etc..


Mark A. Baker
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

I thought of my studies in scientology as spiritual progress made, addressing things in auditing and training etc which gave me a sense of change in a positive way. If I had the choice, I wouldn't do it again but I don't regret having done it.

This statement is ambiguous. Having done whatever there would be no point in doing it again. Could also involve over run.
 

Good twin

Floater
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

Awww Panda. I know you're an ex. I also can see what you are trying to share. That's why I took the time to answer as honestly as I can. The truth is my personal religious tolerance has been stretched pretty thin by my experience in the cult.

I don't mean stories I just read about on the internet either. I have seen loss of life that now seems not only unnecessary but tragic and horrific when viewed without Scientolgy filters. I know you witnessed these things too. I also understand the desire to be allowed to practice your faith as you see fit. And of course I live in a country that sanctions the right to practice one's religion of choice. It's not up to me to decide what is permitted regarding such matters.

But as and ex, no matter how much I try to be patient and tolerant and hopeful that these crazy religious zealots will stop killing each other and making the entire world guilty for not embracing the one true belief system that has the power to save mankind, I really can't see how belief in gardens fairies or space aliens or super beings from an unseen dimension will ever result in any positive advance for any culture.

Scientology just happens to be the one I have a history with and I don't see how it could turn out any other way than ultimately and inevitably abusive.

I don't think you're arrogant Panda. You're cuddly. :yes:
 
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AnonKat

Crusader
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

If a given person were to truly believe that scientology was a religion and that it was their religion of choice, would you deny them the right to practice that religion? If so, how would you justify it? Just curious.

No, but I will fight against Hubbards opinions.

[video=youtube;gCdikFQ5wJU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCdikFQ5wJU[/video]
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

And what of the many non-scientologists who have 'snapped'?

At least the vast majority of non-$cientologists have the excuse that they haven't ever been in contact with the "most ethical people on this planet" and the "experts on the mind".

In your mind do their tragedies necessarily represent the effects of scientology also? Or, are those tragedies the necessary by product of their own religious or social associations?

Look over there! They do it too! :lol: obvious $cn-tech is obvious.

The notion that a person who is a scientologist and who has also experienced a nervous breakdown of some kind must necessarily have experienced such an outcome as a result of the influence of scientology is a logical fallacy.

Correlation does NOT reflect causality.

Well, while I'd basically agree with you, the sheer number of people on this list prevent me from doing so.

Numerous other factors are normally involved. Questions of physical health, genetic factors, individual lifestyle & responsibility, personal choice, etc. are apt to be involved. A church or even a known manipulative & exploitive cult is not prima facie directly responsible for the actions of its adherents.

"No, we, the cult, can never be held responsible for the misdeeds or the failures of any misguided individual, and yes, even in our cult, people do die."

Obvious cult propaganda is obvious.

Attempts to assign blame simply, especially in the instance of absent information, is evidence of biased thinking, not reason.


Mark A. Baker

Again: The sheer number of people on this list speaks for itself. Now play it again, Sam.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

Your personal insults

<snip>

Personal insults? From me? Please quote them right here, so that I can check them for anything that I might want to apologize for.

Also, Please feel free to report any personal insults from me. If you're lucky, you might even get me banned. Do I care? Nope. I'm not perfect and I may be wrong at times, but I stand for what I say, even if that gets me banned.
 
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

... Well, while I'd basically agree with you, the sheer number of people on ... this list prevent me from doing so. ...

Which is as much as to state that you lack independent thinking skills and are wholly dependent on public opinion to determine your own views. ... :eyeroll:


Mark A. Baker
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

In 35 years I haven't seen that a human being has improved one bit by studying Scientology.

Love
Markus

Well, maybe some people have indeed improved - but was it because of $cientology, or despite of it?
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

Which is as much as to state that you lack independent thinking skills and are wholly dependent on public opinion to determine your own views. ... :eyeroll:


Mark A. Baker

If one person in a certain country dies from a certain rare disease, that wouldn't raise an eyebrow, but when thousands die from that disease in that country, it indicates that there might be something in that country, that needs to be seriously looked into.

If you define that as "lack of critical thinking skills", "wholly dependent on public opinion", so be it. I prefer to call it "common sense".
 

FoTi

Crusader
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

"I am not interested in wog morality. If anyone is getting industrious trying to enturbulate or stop Scientologists or Scientology or its activities, I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher."

L. Ron Hubbard, 1969

"Dispose of quietly and without sorrow" (for the chronically low toned) is from 1951 from the book 'Science of Survival'.

And from the 1955 'Manual on Dissemination of Material':

"NEVER BE INTERESTED IN CHARGES. DO, yourself, much MORE CHARGING, and you will WIN..."

Also, from the same 1955, 'Manual on Dissemination':

"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win.

"The law can be used very easily to harass... If possible of course, ruin him utterly."


Metered 'Security Checking' began around 1961, one 'Security Check' question was, "Have you ever had any unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard?"

And that's a very small sampling and none of it's confidential.

Scientologists believe that Scientology is the "only hope for Mankind" and the only way out of the "labyrinth," a labyrinth leading to Wog-dom, then BT-dom, and then becoming MEST. Almost anything is justified.

"Some religions talk about hell. It's an understatement of what really happens" 'Ron's Journal 30'.

See 6:20 - 7:55 for a look at how some Scientologists, in 1980, respond to being asked about Paulette Cooper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF99yYCE8wI&feature=player_embedded

This is a really good video. I wish it would be replayed on national television, currently, for all to see, who have never seen it.

Unfortunately, I was one of the people in one of the suits against CAN.....I thought, at the time, that I was doing something good for Scientology. After it was all over, those of us involved were called into the legal office at Big Blue and asked to endorse the check, which they supposedly received from winning the lawsuit against CAN, so that the law office could cash it and get paid for their services in fighting the case. I don't know if that check was real, because I only saw the back of it when I was asked to endorse it. As far as I know, those who were involved in this particular lawsuit didn't get any money from it and weren't supposed to. The money was supposed to go to the lawyers. Moxon?

Then that check was photographed and used at an event to show that the CoS won the suit against CAN. Now I'm wondering.....after listening to this video, which claims that CAN won most of the suits,.....did the CoS actually win it or did they fudge and just make it up to make themselves appear to win so that they could look good to the members?

How can one believe anything a cult says when they lie so much of the time? :confused2:
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

This is a really good video. I wish it would be replayed on national television, currently, for all to see, who have never seen it.

Unfortunately, I was one of the people in one of the suits against CAN.....I thought, at the time, that I was doing something good for Scientology. After it was all over, those of us involved were called into the legal office at Big Blue and asked to endorse the check, which they supposedly received from winning the lawsuit against CAN, so that the law office could cash it and get paid for their services in fighting the case. I don't know if that check was real, because I only saw the back of it when I was asked to endorse it. As far as I know, those who were involved in this particular lawsuit didn't get any money from it and weren't supposed to. The money was supposed to go to the lawyers. Moxon?

Then that check was photographed and used at an event to show that the CoS won the suit against CAN. Now I'm wondering.....after listening to this video, which claims that CAN won most of the suits,.....did the CoS actually win it or did they fudge and just make it up to make themselves appear to win so that they could look good to the members?

Apparently, according to this Wikipedia article, they won one million dollars in a lawsuit against CAN.

How can one believe anything a cult says when they lie so much of the time? :confused2:

Very good question! :thumbsup:
 

FoTi

Crusader
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

If a given person were to truly believe that scientology was a religion and that it was their religion of choice, would you deny them the right to practice that religion? If so, how would you justify it? Just curious.

Some people do believe in murder/killing. (Witness 9/11)

Now, if someone decided to start a Church of Murderology and set up an Office of Special Affairs for themselves, with the policy of murdering anyone who criticized them, and if a given person were to truly believe that murderology was a religion and that it was their religion of choice, would you deny them the right to practice that religion? If so, how would you justify it? Just curious.

How about the Church of Rapology? Or the Church of Criminology? Or the Church of Theftology? Or the church of Robberology? Or the Church of Piratology? Or the Church of Hitmanology? Or the Church of Pickpocketology? (I've heard there is a school in South America...or maybe it was Mexico..... where people can go to learn how to become expert pick pockets.) Some people follow these kinds of beliefs.

PS....outside the Co$ I would never deny anyone the right to train on how to audit, audit another or to receiving auditing if they themselves desired it.....if that is all they were doing, and as long as their freedom of speech was never interfered with, they could research on the internet the history and results of Dianetics and Scientology, they were free to come and go as they wished on their own determinism, they weren't told how to live their lives, and weren't ripped off financially. Under those circumstances I would not deny anyone to practice their "Scientology religion".

But Scientology is not a religion no matter what their PR department says.......it's a business.....they are in business to make money.

I also have nothing against an auditor charging for their services as long as the person receiving their services feels they are getting their money's worth for what they spend.

Most people who have been in Scientology for a long time know that it was not originally a church or a religion. It became a religion to evade taxes and to keep the govt out of their business. Now people have heard so many times that it is a religion that they have come to believe it. It's not....never was. :no: It's a con.

Even though most people who are involved in Scientology have been brainwashed or tricked into believing that they are on the road to spiritual freedom, .... think that what they are doing is good for themselves and others, .....those in control of Scientology don't give a whit about anybody's physical or spiritual freedom and are in it for money, power, self agrandizement, worship from others, and control of others that it gives them, just like LRH was.

The Co$, as it stands does not deserve to remain in existence.....in my opinion.

Outside the Co$, if auditing (whether a person thinks it's their religion or not) makes a person's life better, then it's okay with me.

I hope this answers your question, PT.
 

FoTi

Crusader
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

Apparently, according to this Wikipedia article, they won one million dollars in a lawsuit against CAN.



Very good question! :thumbsup:

Who wrote the article on Wikipedia?

The part that I was involved in was a check for $6,000.....that's what they showed at the event on the big screen for all to see. I never heard about any one million dollars. Did CAN even have a million dollars?
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Re: PandaTermint's question on the rights of scientologists to practice their religio

Who wrote the article on Wikipedia?

As it is with any Wikipedia article, it's a collaboration of many contributors. To see who contributed what to this article, you can look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cult_Awareness_Network&action=history

The part that I was involved in was a check for $6,000.....that's what they showed at the event on the big screen for all to see. I never heard about any one million dollars. Did CAN even have a million dollars?

As far as I've heard (yes, it's hearsay, but I don't have time to search for DOX at the moment), the cult wanted to make sure to have 100 active lawsuits against CAN at any given time.

EDIT
I don't think CAN had the money, that's why $cn could just "buy" them.
 
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