Itsa time...

[Bea Kiddo]

I'm sorry to have been instrumental in the turning of your stomach.

However, I feel your post is painting me in a certain light to others, so I am asking you to back it up with some specific examples of Hubbardisms and quotes from a suppressive regime that I have employed.

No-one is being force-fed anything here. This is a liberal and tolerant forum.
Put me on your Ignore list if you don't like what I post. I've never had a complaint before but I'm willing to listen to any and reinspect my viewpoint/policy.

Best wishes,

tanstaafl

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

dont change one iota. You have to have majority complaint.... I am part of the board of smarties. And that means I know what I am saying, you know?

So take it in stride.

People love to be beat. People love to be beaten. Yummy, yummy.

But DON'T CHANGE A THING!!!!!

Pwetty pwease?

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I'm sorry to have been instrumental in the turning of your stomach.

However, I feel your post is painting me in a certain light to others, so I am asking you to back it up with some specific examples of Hubbardisms and quotes from a suppressive regime that I have employed.

No-one is being force-fed anything here. This is a liberal and tolerant forum.
Put me on your Ignore list if you don't like what I post. I've never had a complaint before but I'm willing to listen to any and reinspect my viewpoint/policy.

Best wishes,

tanstaafl

Yeah - me and tansy disagree on almost everything to do with the tech but he's a good guy to read for all that. Plus I think - it always good to read the thoughts of those you really disagree with - how are you/they ever going to persuade the other person if you cannot read what they have to say?

 

[alex]

www.answers.com

Ah, Thanks.

Looks like someone copied the AP style book to answers.com then!


alex

 

[alex]

Fair comment Fluffy; I suppose it is entierly subjective, and it is wrong for me to be judgemental. I do feel that all of the Hubbard tech was slanted though, but then there is the aspect of 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater', Maybe I would find it more palatable if the nomencalture was removed from the non-cos scientology.

My stomach turns every time I see one of Tansi's postings with Hubbardisms and quotes from, what to me, is a repressive regime and the tech being the 'tool' used to obfuscate and indoctrinate the naeive. - I don't have a problem with Tansi, seems like a jolly decent bloke, just don't like to feel like I am still being force fed Hubbard's tech. Is it merely an issue of terminology? language? 'Moving up The Bridge' that is just a few words strung together, but to any of us this phrase carries so much baggage; depanding on our experience that is either extremely negative or possibly quite the opposite. Ever read anything on General Semantics or Naom Chomsky's linguistics?

I find the notion that someone such as your self could be forcefed by "tansi" a bit "naeive".


alex

 

[Alanzo]

Fair comment Fluffy; I suppose it is entierly subjective, and it is wrong for me to be judgemental. I do feel that all of the Hubbard tech was slanted though, but then there is the aspect of 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater', Maybe I would find it more palatable if the nomencalture was removed from the non-cos scientology.

My stomach turns every time I see one of Tansi's postings with Hubbardisms and quotes from, what to me, is a repressive regime and the tech being the 'tool' used to obfuscate and indoctrinate the naeive. - I don't have a problem with Tansi, seems like a jolly decent bloke, just don't like to feel like I am still being force fed Hubbard's tech. Is it merely an issue of terminology? language? 'Moving up The Bridge' that is just a few words strung together, but to any of us this phrase carries so much baggage; depanding on our experience that is either extremely negative or possibly quite the opposite. Ever read anything on General Semantics or Naom Chomsky's linguistics?

Jon, I understand what you are saying.

I went through the same thing for the first few years of being out. And maybe your situation is very different from mine, and what I am comparing in my own behavior has nothing to do with your situation.

But, for a lot of exes, there is a period of bitterness over the fact that all your highest ideals turned out to be fake. And anyone who seems to represent Hubbard or the tech just needs taking down a few notches. And so I would.

Thing is, in this case, I've tested Taansy - thoroughly. And he has earned the Alanzo Stamp of Approval.

What terrifies me are the pinheaded fanatics who can not present any rationale other than service facs, ad hominems, and Rondriod Slogans for the points they make. They are the dangerous ones, the ones without conscience, the True Believers who would destroy us all.

So for me, anyone who can present a logical rationale for the positions they hold which stands up to scrutiny - even if they are a staunch Churchie - gets a pass from me.

So test and chew on Taansy for a while. I think you'll find him quite tasty. He has well-thought out reasons for the positions he holds

Go ahead.

He'll be your Huckleberry.

 

[MissDorfl]

You and I and most people can *infer* meaning to unfamiliar words; and, that itself is a worthy and valuable talent that's worth training.

Zinj

Lo and behold, English is not my first language, and that is exactly what I do when I come across an unfamiliar word, I first to try to infer the meaning from the context and only if that doesn't work, I use my trusted dictionary (currently the Oxford Duden), if I can be bothered. And I didn't even need Study Tech to teach me that.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

My stomach turns every time I see one of Tansi's postings with Hubbardisms and quotes from, what to me, is a repressive regime and the tech being the 'tool' used to obfuscate and indoctrinate the naeive. - I don't have a problem with Tansi, seems like a jolly decent bloke, just don't like to feel like I am still being force fed Hubbard's tech. Is it merely an issue of terminology? language? 'Moving up The Bridge' that is just a few words strung together, but to any of us this phrase carries so much baggage; depanding on our experience that is either extremely negative or possibly quite the opposite. Ever read anything on General Semantics or Naom Chomsky's linguistics?

Well, I think that among exes you're gonna get some modicum of Scn nomenclature. I even see exes who flat out hate Scn using it here and there on forums.

Also, if people are discussing a particular Scn concept, they're more likely to end up using Scn-ese. Particularly if it's about a specific kind of auditing or whatnot.

Maybe some people do use it more than they need...I don't know. I weaned myself off it when discussing most Scn stuff years ago. Though I must say, I think it's fun when someone pops out with "It's a ser fac" or whatnot- because sometimes that's a good description anyway. And although there could be a somewhat similar concept elsewhere (that one's only given as an example) it's not going to be identical so maybe the Scn verbiage should stay.

Like your example "Moving up the bridge". Well, if a person is doing the Scn path and not the TM path or the metapyschology path or the psychoanalytic course of treatment-- then it is going to be, for that person, "moving up the bridge."

No, I've not read anything by Noah Chumsky. I'd never hear the end of it if I brought anything from that guy into my house... I like him slightly better than some of you guys like Hubbard.... :wink2:

 

[johnAnchovie]

Sorry Tanstaafl

I'm sorry to have been instrumental in the turning of your stomach.

However, I feel your post is painting me in a certain light to others, so I am asking you to back it up with some specific examples of Hubbardisms and quotes from a suppressive regime that I have employed.

No-one is being force-fed anything here. This is a liberal and tolerant forum.
Put me on your Ignore list if you don't like what I post. I've never had a complaint before but I'm willing to listen to any and reinspect my viewpoint/policy.

Best wishes,

tanstaafl

It is not the essence of what you are saying that I have problems with, you do communicate well, and you do come accross as a balanced and intellegent person, it the COS language that you use in describing phenomena. I lived with that language for so long, and it was used - maybe misused - to coerce people into counter-intuative activities and to justify atrocities. The language may have been well reasoned on its inseption, but it has become associated in my mind with oppression, occlusion and subversion of dignity.

I understand that you do not see it that way, you used the tech to help, and clearly you did help people, but it is the language of the CofS, and it is forever sullied in my mind and as Alanzo points out there is a great deal of bitterness and rage associated with it.

I do not want to attack people on this board, unless they are clearly trolls, Emma has kept the board well monitored so that it can achieve its envisioned outcome, you and others on this board have my respect because you are out and you are either dealing with issues related to CofS or agitating and informing.

Please forgive me for mis-stating the indended concept.

- Communisim was subverted by Stalin, the 'communist-speak' of that era is forever associated with that frighting, murderous and bloody period in history. -

 

[Mick Wenlock]

John - as ever - eloquently put.

Mick

It is not the essence of what you are saying that I have problems with, you do communicate well, and you do come accross as a balanced and intellegent person, it the COS language that you use in describing phenomena. I lived with that language for so long, and it was used - maybe misused - to coerce people into counter-intuative activities and to justify atrocities. The language may have been well reasoned on its inseption, but it has become associated in my mind with oppression, occlusion and subversion of dignity.

I understand that you do not see it that way, you used the tech to help, and clearly you did help people, but it is the language of the CofS, and it is forever sullied in my mind and as Alanzo points out there is a great deal of bitterness and rage associated with it.

I do not want to attack people on this board, unless they are clearly trolls, Emma has kept the board well monitored so that it can achieve its envisioned outcome, you and others on this board have my respect because you are out and you are either dealing with issues related to CofS or agitating and informing.

Please forgive me for mis-stating the indended concept.

- Communisim was subverted by Stalin, the 'communist-speak' of that era is forever associated with that frighting, murderous and bloody period in history. -

 

[Alanzo]

John - as ever - eloquently put.

Mick

Agreed.

 

[Tanstaafl]

It is not the essence of what you are saying that I have problems with, you do communicate well, and you do come accross as a balanced and intellegent person, it the COS language that you use in describing phenomena. I lived with that language for so long, and it was used - maybe misused - to coerce people into counter-intuative activities and to justify atrocities. The language may have been well reasoned on its inseption, but it has become associated in my mind with oppression, occlusion and subversion of dignity.

I understand that you do not see it that way, you used the tech to help, and clearly you did help people, but it is the language of the CofS, and it is forever sullied in my mind and as Alanzo points out there is a great deal of bitterness and rage associated with it.

I do not want to attack people on this board, unless they are clearly trolls, Emma has kept the board well monitored so that it can achieve its envisioned outcome, you and others on this board have my respect because you are out and you are either dealing with issues related to CofS or agitating and informing.

Please forgive me for mis-stating the indended concept.

- Communisim was subverted by Stalin, the 'communist-speak' of that era is forever associated with that frighting, murderous and bloody period in history. -

Okay John, I now have a clear idea of your viewpoint - thanks.

My experience in Scn, although tedious and drawn out, is in no way comparable in terms of the degree of misery and harshness involved compared to many here (e.g. Mick, Bea). Because of this, I do not have the same emotional associations with "tech" terminology. I do have similar associations in other areas of life.

Personally, I believe there are elements in Scn that could be used to help ourselves and others, if employed by sane and honestly motivated people. I don't see why CoS should have a monopoly on these, especially since they rarely use them.

I don't believe the tech is perfect and I certainly don't believe it's complete but I do believe that there is something good that can be salvaged from it.
I have had some dealings with the freezone and everything is relaxed and friendly - a world away from CoS. So it can be done - although how big it can get on that basis, I don't know.

There has been a lot of use of Scn terminology on the Board. Sometimes because we have been discussing the validity (or lack of it) of certain elements of tech and sometimes because it's the most direct and simple way to communicate a concept, given that the terms (but not necessarily their validity) are largely agreed on here.

I'm just trying to understand and be understood. I have no desire to help continuate the Scn mindset in those who do not welcome it, and I fully respect those that want nothing more to do with Hubbard, CoS, or the tech.

I'll continue to use "tech" terms where appropriate, but I welcome you or anyone else pointing out where I may have used them gratuitously or where the same concept could quickly and simply be expressed in everyday English.

I'm glad you're out John and I wish you the very best for your new life.

Cheers

tanstaafl

 

[shader]

You just helped me to peel off a layer of the scientological onion. I have an extensive vocabulary and, you know what?, I almost never looked a word up in the dictionary beyond my normal school hours. I did take Latin courses. I soaked up the concepts of the word in how it was used in the context.

Colleen,

Glad to hear of your onion peeling. I remember being taught in primary school that if we came across an unfamiliar word, we should look at how it was used in the sentence, then look at the meaning of the surrounding sentences, then use this info to try and work out what the new word meant. You often need to read a few sentences with the word before you have enough information to work it out.

I've used this technique successfully all my life and haven't ever found myself dozing off or going blank as a result.

I suspect this technique may have beneficial effects on your vocabulary, with the steps you go through deducing the meaning of the word helping it "stick" in your memory better than it would if you read a definition - kinda like how you learn something better by doing it rather than watching it. (I have no evidence for this beyond my own experience and conjecture)

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Thing is, the Scn nomenclature isn't JUST the language of CofS.

There are plenty of non CofS Scientologists. There also are people who dabbled a little, aren't any kind of Scientologist and who use some of the terms.

However, all things considered, I think it's a very good idea for people to use regular English (or whichever language they speak) when describing things not unique to Scn, particuarly when speaking with others who either never were in Scn or who were and who no longer want any part of it.

 

[Nec_V20]

fluffy,

I had a professor at university, and he said something which has stuck with me. He said, "If you can't explain something simply, then you have no idea what you're talking about".

In many cases jargon is used in lieu of more common language because the person using it is not wanting to, "dazzle with science", but rather to, "baffle with bullshit".

 

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

I'm glad you said all that. It's hard to criticize Scientology or 'Study Tech' for its obsession with dictionaries, even though using dictionaries is very valuable. While writing, I often flip over to another window and check definitions or spelling, and, sometimes I don't, which sometimes comes back to bite me

But, Scientologists will almost always sneer at anyone suggesting that the 'Study Tech' itself is part of the Mind Fuck, since reading a dictionary is so harmless....

But, the *theory* behind the Study Tech is deliberately suppressive. Because the 'theory' says that, failure to 'agree' can only be due to failure to comprehend. If you don't agree with Ron, you're sent back to the dictionary, on paid time, your paid time, until you *do* agree.

Scientology hates the concept of comprehension in context. And, in reading, there is nothing so disruptive of comprehension as 'automatically' going 'out of session
at every slightest bump in the train of thought.

You and I and most people can *infer* meaning to unfamiliar words; and, that itself is a worthy and valuable talent that's worth training.

Zinj

Zinj, you are much more the writer than I am. I refused to learn grammar. The only thing I used my Webster's Dictionary for was for pressing those pretty little flowers.

When I right click my mouse I can select Answers.com to clear the highlighted word.

 

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

Okay John, I now have a clear idea of your viewpoint - thanks.

My experience in Scn, although tedious and drawn out, is in no way comparable in terms of the degree of misery and harshness involved compared to many here (e.g. Mick, Bea). Because of this, I do not have the same emotional associations with "tech" terminology. I do have similar associations in other areas of life.

Personally, I believe there are elements in Scn that could be used to help ourselves and others, if employed by sane and honestly motivated people. I don't see why CoS should have a monopoly on these, especially since they rarely use them.

I don't believe the tech is perfect and I certainly don't believe it's complete but I do believe that there is something good that can be salvaged from it.
I have had some dealings with the freezone and everything is relaxed and friendly - a world away from CoS. So it can be done - although how big it can get on that basis, I don't know.

There has been a lot of use of Scn terminology on the Board. Sometimes because we have been discussing the validity (or lack of it) of certain elements of tech and sometimes because it's the most direct and simple way to communicate a concept, given that the terms (but not necessarily their validity) are largely agreed on here.

I'm just trying to understand and be understood. I have no desire to help continuate the Scn mindset in those who do not welcome it, and I fully respect those that want nothing more to do with Hubbard, CoS, or the tech.

I'll continue to use "tech" terms where appropriate, but I welcome you or anyone else pointing out where I may have used them gratuitously or where the same concept could quickly and simply be expressed in everyday English.

I'm glad you're out John and I wish you the very best for your new life.

Cheers

tanstaafl

Tnstfl,

I have done an 180 degree turn in regards to using Scientology terminology. The last thing I want to distract from my communication is someone thinking that I am a Scientologist. I'm strange enough to people all by myself, thank you.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Hey Colleen

I have done an 180 degree turn in regards to using Scientology terminology. The last thing I want to distract from my communication is someone thinking that I am a Scientologist.

I can understand that.
At the end of the day it's about understanding and being understood.

It's also about shorthand - if you believe that there is such a thing as the serv fac, do you really want to write a short article on the phenomenon rather than just placing the term in a post? Even detractors of Scn have to use the terms in order to invalidate them.

I never really considered myself a Scn when I was in. Now I'm out and on this forum I find people calling me a Scn!

I'm strange enough to people all by myself, thank you.

I never trust anyone who hasn't at least one eccentricity.

Cheers

tanstaafl

 

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

Colleen,

Glad to hear of your onion peeling. I remember being taught in primary school that if we came across an unfamiliar word, we should look at how it was used in the sentence, then look at the meaning of the surrounding sentences, then use this info to try and work out what the new word meant. You often need to read a few sentences with the word before you have enough information to work it out.

I've used this technique successfully all my life and haven't ever found myself dozing off or going blank as a result.

I suspect this technique may have beneficial effects on your vocabulary, with the steps you go through deducing the meaning of the word helping it "stick" in your memory better than it would if you read a definition - kinda like how you learn something better by doing it rather than watching it. (I have no evidence for this beyond my own experience and conjecture)

It also helps if you spent your summers in the library.

 

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

fluffy,

I had a professor at university, and he said something which has stuck with me. He said, "If you can't explain something simply, then you have no idea what you're talking about".

In many cases jargon is used in lieu of more common language because the person using it is not wanting to, "dazzle with science", but rather to, "baffle with bullshit".

Yes, like most of that channeled stuff.

 

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

okay, i said "stuff", how common and overused, and so, so "blonde" of me.