Want My Daughter Back

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

I'm so sorry for your troubles Mushy.

Do you have a few bucks? If so, there's no harm in finding out what an intervention might entail - costs, chances of success, etc. reviewing Steve Hassan's web site might be a place to start.

My family considered this course when I started on staff in Scientology but went the gentle route others have described already on this thread.

33 fucking years later, after I got out and had the chance to talk with my brother about it, he told me they (the family) decided it was not worth the risk of losing me completely if the deprogramming failed and took the more conservative route of staying on friendly terms.

It worked out in the end.

But if you have the balls to go for the brass ring now, then go pro.

From the limited information you've provided, I don't thing that you alone armed with some anti cult books stand a chance against the cult programming that your daughter is receiving right now on a continual basis.

 

[Boson Wog Stark]

e. Beyond Belief: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Harrowing Escape (by Jenna Miscavige Hill)

If his daughter were interested in the Sea Org, but had some doubts or ended up thwarted from it, Jenna's book in particular may hold some interest for her. In their initial years of indoctrination (and sometimes later, like Tom Cruise), many Scientologists fantasize about growing up with these "tools," and this "knowingness," maybe joining the Sea Org when they are young and how much better their lives would have been with it. Well, here is a young woman who did just that, and was headed that way from Day 1.

Another thing to remember is that while Ron Jr.'s statements about his father (TV and books) were dismissed, demonized, and retracted, he was the son of Hubbard, and would HAVE to be dismissed (or made to be entheta) moreso than Jenna. The fact that the cult was not able to stop Jenna's book from publication or sue her, or get her to retract it with a bribe or threat, says something new about this book -- that it is true.

In other words, I think some new cracks are opening up with regard to Scientology literature that didn't exist compared to the books that were available in the 80s or 90s. The Internet is also a new wrinkle -- especially sites like Exscientologykids.com.

When you think of all the books Hubbard wrote, one gap in Scientology literature involves people actually experiencing the whole Sea Org experience, including the perspective from a young person. There are only snippets of "cases" about auditing etc. Anything about Sea Org life is presented as promotional.

So the way to introduce Jenna's book would not be to say that it exposes the dark secrets about Scientology and what is wrong with it, but just to say that it is the real experience of a child who grew up in it and ended up in the Sea Org where she fell in love. And, that it is true, and because it is true, Scientology was unable to stop it from being published, even though she is the niece of David Miscavige and had to "escape" from the Sea Org.
------------
Although as later posters have said, the whole bribe-to-read wouldn't work out, I like the discussion part of it. One woman in the 70s was bribed by her parents to read THE SCANDAL OF SCIENTOLOGY, so that they would pay for some of her courses. In other words they said that if she read this book, and still wanted to take more Scientology courses, they would give her the money.

Needless to say, she didn't read it with an open mind, but instead read it regarding it as something that might halt her progress in Scientology if she thought about a single sentence of it. So she read it without really reading it because she wanted the money for courses. She also read it knowing that it was written by a person who was not a Scientologist.

Anyway, I think the father should read all these books, and Jenna's should be moved to the top of the list, since his daughter herself wanted to be in the Sea Org. Maybe they could read it together, taking turns reading it to each other and discussing it.

 

[NoName]

If you're looking into interventions, you might want to google Monica Pignotti. She was in the SO many years ago and is now a therapist. I dunno if she does interventions, but she might be worth talking to. It was reading her story that made me realize that LRH was the problem, not DM, and led to my blow cog.

The other thing that Anonymary and TINOK hit upon were another important piece of advice I got early on when dealing with the having many people I care about still in the cult. You need to love your daughter unconditionally. I know you already probably do, but I'm talking about making an effort to show it and not taking any hard line tough love type approaches. You can do both of those without "enabling" her by giving her money for cult classes or things she can sell off.

This is important because all of the love, friendship, fellowship, in the cult is CONDITIONAL. You need to be the reliable stalwart one that she can always go back to when things start falling apart in the cult. Which they will. The upshot is that they seem to be destabilizing people's lives sooner rather than later these days.

 

[Bill]

Mushy

howdy. First of all be prepared for a long haul.

OK - now - lose any idea of presenting her with "other views" on Scientology or Hubbard unless she specifically asks for it. Do not suggest it, don't proffer opinions about it. I am serious. Because if it were as simple as just presenting a couple of books and people would leave Scientology would have disappeared a long long time ago.

The people in Scientology are skilled manipulators of people like your daughter. It does not matter what you say and no matter how right you are - they will turn her around and show her "proof" that you are either ignorant or evil. So do not even tread into that battleground.

If she asks you your opinion just say you don;t think it is for you. Tell her how proud you are of her for being willing to try new things and to look at new ideas.

There is one thing you may need to be adamant about - I do not know if you are well off or what your financial situation may be - but do not, under any circumstances, give her money or anything that can be turned into money. If she asks for money for Scientology tell her that you support her using all her new gifts to earn the money for her services. If you are intending to do anything I would suggest putting the money in a college fund but make sure it can only be used for a state or accredited college. You can even truthfully tell her that with an education she will be in much better shape to earn the money to go up the bridge. Be creative but do not oppose - just avoid giving her money or anything that can be turned into money.

Just be positive about her and neutral about Scientology. Just let her find out things in her own way. Just be her dad and tell her how much you like and admire her. You are not going to win her side of things if you are perceived to be criticizing her choices.

So take a few moments - as I said this is going to be a long haul - just be someone she can feel safe coming to dinner with or visiting. Don't Set yourself as the target.

The chances are that she will figure out - most people do. The odds are on YOUR side.

THIS^^^

This is seriously good advice. You do not want to create a them vs. you situation. You will lose because the important stuff will get lost in the battle.

Sounds like you are doing the right thing -- letting her know you love her unconditionally, no matter what she decides.

Basically, if you do not attack her (or Scientology) she will no longer feel the need to defend herself (and Scientology). When that happens, she will be free to admit Scientology's failures and nuttiness to you (because she can't admit it to anyone else). This is KEY.

THIS is why you stop attacking Scientology, to defuse the "defend at all costs" mechanism.

Bill

 

[TrevAnon]

All the above posts may offer better advice than mine, which I copied from one of my first posts here on ESMB, which in turn I copied from WWP. The post was made by Michael Pattinson and is about the Fiona case.

Please note I was never in, so again, I will readily accept better advice from anyone who used to be in.

It's just to show that I sometimes have quite a good memory...

In a thread over on WWP Michael Pattinson explained why a VALID legal case against CO$ might help:

Thread: http://forums.whyweprotest.net/24-fair-game-reports-personal-experiences/fiona-loved-57081/

Quote from Michael:

Here's WHY a lawsuit from the relevant parents would exit her from the cult. It is all LRH tech/ethics/admin so I am not making this up. i will use a hypothetical name "Fiona" to illustrate the mechanisms.

1. Fiona (or other person) has been brainwashed into being a cult member and true believer.
2. They are happily (more or less) enslaved by the false indoctrination.
3. Family/parents are disconnected from due to incompatible views of Scientology.
4. Family files a valid lawsuit based on local laws (attorney essential) against Scientology, especially the org where Fiona or another is located.
5. Fiona is instantly "Potential Trouble Source" (maximum trouble) and must go to Ethics Office/OSA.
6. LRH tech says no staff member connected by familial ties to family who is suing Scientology can remain on post.
7. To protect the org the relevant PTS staff member is popped out of the cult like bread out of a toaster.
8. Staff member has to go handle the situation with family (usually with a supervision program with OSA). As long as lawsuit lasts Fiona could not go back.
9. Fiona is totally pissed off at being forced out of the cult enslavement as she does not know any better.
10. Opportunities now arise for reconnection with family and educating Fiona on the REAL FACE OF SCIENTOLOGY with patience, love and understanding.
11. Fiona either gets parents to drop lawsuit, which puts it all back to square 1, or Fiona realizes how she has been trapped and drops membership in the cult.

No other method has any teeth.

EDIT: oops, the link to the wwp-thread doesn't work anymore. Will try to find a correct one.

EDIT 2: FOund it: https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/fiona-is-loved.50514/#post-1048754

Also https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/fiona-is-loved.50514/#post-1048745

Must say though that not every post on that WWP thread is an example of the best sides of Chanology / Anonymous. You may not like everything you see.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

wisely spoken, I do admit.

second the emotion

 

[Purple Rain]

THIS^^^

This is seriously good advice. You do not want to create a them vs. you situation. You will lose because the important stuff will get lost in the battle.

Sounds like you are doing the right thing -- letting her know you love her unconditionally, no matter what she decides.

Basically, if you do not attack her (or Scientology) she will no longer feel the need to defend herself (and Scientology). When that happens, she will be free to admit Scientology's failures and nuttiness to you (because she can't admit it to anyone else). This is KEY.

THIS is why you stop attacking Scientology, to defuse the "defend at all costs" mechanism.

Bill

I actually think my kids stood a better chance because my family was so anti. None of them grew up liking Scientology or wanting anything to do with it and I can thank my mother and sister for that. Also, the cult had to tiptoe around me because their father was a journalist and they knew there could be serious SHIT hitting the fan if they pushed things too far.

I just think accepting all the good roads good weather enables the cult to steal years of somebody's life. I don't know how many more years of mine they would have stolen if my family hadn't been constantly at me to defend the indefensible. "Why can't you come to my wedding rehearsal?! That SUCKS. What is WRONG with these people? etc. etc." and my mother was all in their face when I was at ITO - "Where the HELL is my daughter??!!" and they had to send out people to find me to get this woman off their case. I think my family were heroes, even though it was the worst time of their lives ever to have me in there for five years. They didn't tiptoe around anything. They made me think. They made me compare where my values were at now compared with how I used to value my family and my kids. They just never were into appeasement. They thought the cult was evil and they fought it tooth and nail with every fibre of their beings.

I'm not saying that works for everyone and I bow to others with more experience, but that's how it was for us. I think the Neville Chamberlain route basically allows them to use up the person for as long as they want. The Churchill route says bring it. You. Me. Here. Now. It was a huge risk. They could have lost everything. But as the Midnight Oil song says, I guess they just figured it was better to die on their feet than to live on their knees.

 

[Tiger Lily]

This is so hard. I did something similar to my husband, and I was very much where your daughter is now.

First of all, Mick's advice is spot on. I had to stop doing Scientology when I ran out of money and maxed out all my credit. I spent monetary birthday gifts and inheritances on Scientology -- and I was oh so "theta" then -- they loved me and validated me to no end. Once there was no more money I was suddenly a "down stat" and treated like some low life. That was when the house of cards started to fall for me. It was very clear that it wasn't about me as a Thetan but about my pocket book. So, the faster her finances dry up, the better off she'll be.

The second thing is that I stayed in long after I knew better because I just couldn't face admitting to my husband (and myself) that I had been so wrong. My husband kept telling me what a cult it was, and that it was mind control, and that they were only after money -- he tried to show me articles etc. -- and when I spewed the PTS/SP stuff at him he scoffed at me. It put me so far on the defensive that I vowed to prove him wrong. It was 2 years after I got "out" that I admitted to him how stupid I had been. Suprisingly he was very understanding and supportive, but I didn't think he would be. So make sure that you always show support for your daughter's ability to think, to reason, to make wise decisions, her value as a person, all the reasons why she's amazing. Let her know that you love her unconditionally (this is in stark contrast to the very "conditional ARC" given in the CofS), But don't tell her she is wrong because it will drive her towards them and away from you. She's at a vulnerable age anyway -- where kids naturally distance themselves from their parents and want to find their own way. . . the last thing she'll want is to be told that she can't make decisions for herself.

If she ever talks to you about some concerns, make sure you mostly listen and never say "I told you so". Tell her how much you admire her strong BS meter, or her ability to judge character, how she never goes against her better judgment or whatever. That will strengthen her self esteem and help her not fall into the trap of thinking the Scientologists know more than she does.

And . . as an aside: even after she is out, don't say things like "I am so relieved you finally saw the light" or " You were making bad decisions and I was so worried". That will make her feel that you think of her as a stupid child. Instead listen to her, ask questions about what it was like, the things that drew her in and the things that made her uncomfortable . . . validate all her positive reasons for getting in -- wanting the change the world, help people,etc. Validate her big heart so that she feels like you understand why she was drawn to it. As she talks about it she'll process it even more, and the fact that you care and understand will make her love you more.

My heart goes out to you. I wish you the best with this.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I wanted to expand a little on my original post and to say thanks to everyone who responded to my suggestions to the OP.

In light of some of those responses I wanted to give the thinking behind why I said some the things I have said.

IN addition to this group I was on ARS almost from the start and I have run XSO for years. Along with that I have helped in MLM Survivors, mainly to learn what things have worked in that environment to get friends and loved ones out and to learn what techniques MLMs use to hang on to their "members"

In the 20 years or so since I got out of the Sea Org I have learned one horrible fact - short of physically kidnapping someone I have NEVER seen an aggressive campaign work to keep a family together or to get someone out. I have seen it get someone off service or on mandatory beaching - but never seen it reunite the people involved. I am not claiming that it has NEVER happened but every case I know of, where the parents or siblings of friends have insisted on wellness checks, have harassed the Org with phone calls, have traveled with protest signs (and this involves the stories in MLM survivors too) they have all failed. ALL OF THEM.

I know a couple of people have posted on here suggesting things that *should* work. I can tell you almost categorically that they will not.

Our son is in the CofS in Copenhagen - I am not sure what he is doing because we have not heard from him for years. When we left in 1989 he left with us, he was with us in the States and then in 1995 decided he wanted to go back to Copenhagen maybe for a year or so, see some old friends and hang out (he had just completed his 1 year in the Americorps thing) he decided to stay, got a job (he speaks fluent Danish of course) and he started getting back together with other XSO Kids and hanging out. After 4 years he called me to say he wanted to get back on to services. We met and we talked (in Stansted airport of all places) we discussed the fact that if he wanted to go back he would have to disconnect from me and I told him I supported whatever decision he wanted to make - as long as I understood and knew that he was the person making it. I have never tried to interfere since that time . He made his decision and I respect it.

There are aspects to this that strike me as totally bizarre of course but thats for another post.

Now back to friends and family who are in and who we would like to see out. There are some uncomfortable things that are true - almost all scientologists have seen the bad news/entheta about Scientology in the press or online or in person - they have seen it and they have elected to ignore it. EVERY person who is in Scientologist has been set up to see it and deny it. They have ALL seen things which are wrong, off policy, out ethics ridiculous - everything we say on here. But they have been carefully and completely trained to see it, to ignore it and to replace it.

Let me give another example - my wife after we got out was convinced for YEARS that we would be going back. She refused to read ARS because she *knew* it was just enturbulation. She assumed that one day we would be back on lines. It wasn't until about 1997 or 98 that she finally came to realize that a) we were never going back and b) that she did not want to ever go back.

It has been my experience that people leave a cult or a cult mindset when they start to see through the trickery and deception - when they start to see how the "magic trick" is performed and when they start to stop excusing the cult for not actually being what it said it would be. What triggers that cascade is deeply personal and it comes from within.

Which is why - getting back to my point - I advocate the easy approach. There are several reasons for this - the outside person, father, mother, family member, lover etc has to decide whether they are willing to sacrifice the relationship because of Scientology. Is the person's membership in that group so offensive that you do not wish to associate with them? What if there had joined a racist organization? An offensively racist one? What if they would never stop badgering you about it and trying to get you to join? What would you do? So if the decision is that you will love them - in or out - of scientology then one has to adopt a way that enables both you to live with it and in addition to make sure that you do not have to go through the endless drain of money that all scientologists go through. Millions upon millions of people make compromises in their lives - they put up with spouses of their family members that they really cannot stand. They put up with the inane interests of loved ones and so on.

Yes it is worrying and concerning - but the whole point of my suggestions is that the person is free to turn to you in all circumstances, good and bad. There is a relationship that is INDEPENDENT of scientology.

 

[Bill]

I actually think my kids stood a better chance because my family was so anti. None of them grew up liking Scientology or wanting anything to do with it and I can thank my mother and sister for that. Also, the cult had to tiptoe around me because their father was a journalist and they knew there could be serious SHIT hitting the fan if they pushed things too far.

I just think accepting all the good roads good weather enables the cult to steal years of somebody's life. I don't know how many more years of mine they would have stolen if my family hadn't been constantly at me to defend the indefensible. "Why can't you come to my wedding rehearsal?! That SUCKS. What is WRONG with these people? etc. etc." and my mother was all in their face when I was at ITO - "Where the HELL is my daughter??!!" and they had to send out people to find me to get this woman off their case. I think my family were heroes, even though it was the worst time of their lives ever to have me in there for five years. They didn't tiptoe around anything. They made me think. They made me compare where my values were at now compared with how I used to value my family and my kids. They just never were into appeasement. They thought the cult was evil and they fought it tooth and nail with every fibre of their beings.

I'm not saying that works for everyone and I bow to others with more experience, but that's how it was for us. I think the Neville Chamberlain route basically allows them to use up the person for as long as they want. The Churchill route says bring it. You. Me. Here. Now. It was a huge risk. They could have lost everything. But as the Midnight Oil song says, I guess they just figured it was better to die on their feet than to live on their knees.

What you say is true, but there is a huge difference between keeping someone out of Scientology and getting a Scientologist to wake up.

When addressing anyone who is not in Scientology, I'd say be as aggressive as you want in pointing out all the problems, crimes, lies and abuses.

But not only will that not work on a Scientologist, in my opinion, it actually causes them to go the reverse direction, further into Scientology's defensive, them vs. us mindset.

Scientology can easily battle hate. After all, they are experts at hating. What Scientology can't handle is love.

The OP loves his daughter unconditionally. THAT will defeat Scientology.

Bill

 

[still here]

I am sure the OP has had all the good advice he could have hoped for. I hope she one day returns to him.

This is always going to be a very difficult issue, and especially so with children I think. I suspect that this is because for their early lives we are in control, can warn them or take them away from danger and keep them safe.

But they grow up.
There is nothing harder than watching a child you love with your heart and soul, choose a path, or make a decision you are convinced is not a good one, and the parent in you kicks hard, but ultimately you have to let them make those decisions and you have to let them make their own mistakes. Life can be brutal, but most survive it.

Scientology, (as has been eloquently said) is ready for all your protective attacks. It is how it survives, it is ready to develop the "them and us", and it does it very well. As was beautifully put in the last post, it can do very little against love.

Neither of my children liked to hear what a bad decision, partner or choice they had made, or wanted to make, from my viewpoint...and I remember how I felt about my family telling me similar things. One of my sisters immediately sent me anti-scientology articles when I joined. They didn't work.

Part of growing up is feeling you can make your own decisions and making them, you are going to defend those decisions when they come under attack, because it feels like an assault on your adulthood.

Ultimately, the only way is complete love and being able to let go. To reassure fully, that whatever happens, and whenever you are needed, no matter what - you will be there, and do it.
All Scns who leave need that unconditional support and love, more than anything else, because when and if they do leave, their world has unravelled.

Don't fight, become an island of love and sanity and sanctuary, because as grown-ups that's what we sometimes need.

Still

 

[Mushy]

Again I would like to thank you all. I am amazed by the caring and support from all of you. My daughter came home today to take me out for my birthday. We spent the evening just talking about stuff. She is going to be going back to Clearwater in a few days. She does not know for sure yet. Not sure if I believe that or not.
Anyway I am just trying to be supportive even though I am dying inside. She knows that she is my bug and always will be. I have told her that since she was born.

Thanks again and I will try to give you all updates as I proceed through this journey.

 

[Vittorio]

Mushy

howdy. First of all be prepared for a long haul.

OK - now - lose any idea of presenting her with "other views" on Scientology or Hubbard unless she specifically asks for it. Do not suggest it, don't proffer opinions about it. I am serious. Because if it were as simple as just presenting a couple of books and people would leave Scientology would have disappeared a long long time ago.

The people in Scientology are skilled manipulators of people like your daughter. It does not matter what you say and no matter how right you are - they will turn her around and show her "proof" that you are either ignorant or evil. So do not even tread into that battleground.

If she asks you your opinion just say you don;t think it is for you. Tell her how proud you are of her for being willing to try new things and to look at new ideas.

There is one thing you may need to be adamant about - I do not know if you are well off or what your financial situation may be - but do not, under any circumstances, give her money or anything that can be turned into money. If she asks for money for Scientology tell her that you support her using all her new gifts to earn the money for her services. If you are intending to do anything I would suggest putting the money in a college fund but make sure it can only be used for a state or accredited college. You can even truthfully tell her that with an education she will be in much better shape to earn the money to go up the bridge. Be creative but do not oppose - just avoid giving her money or anything that can be turned into money.

Just be positive about her and neutral about Scientology. Just let her find out things in her own way. Just be her dad and tell her how much you like and admire her. You are not going to win her side of things if you are perceived to be criticizing her choices.

So take a few moments - as I said this is going to be a long haul - just be someone she can feel safe coming to dinner with or visiting. Don't Set yourself as the target.

The chances are that she will figure out - most people do. The odds are on YOUR side.

Listen to Mick.

His is the best advice I can imagine.

I would add one thing.

Somehow give her more responsibility in other parts of her life.

You'll have to be creative about this.

Tell her you need her help around the house or with the family.

If she is in college she will probably soon be told by Scientologist that it is a waste of time.

So expect that soon she may tell you she's dropping out.

But under no circumstances blame Scientology for anything.

Expect the worst but hope for the best.

We're here if you need us.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I agree with the above. Let her choose her own path and let her learn from her own mistakes. Do not give her any money towards Scientology as this takes responsibility away from her; she needs to earn her own and learn the value of money the hard way. Let her make her owns meals, do her own laundry etc etc and see if she can handle the pressure than Scientology will bring down on her. Love her and treat her well but don't enable something that you believe is wrong. Don't smash yourself up trying to convince someone who won't listen.

 

[AnonyMary]

Again I would like to thank you all. I am amazed by the caring and support from all of you. My daughter came home today to take me out for my birthday. We spent the evening just talking about stuff. She is going to be going back to Clearwater in a few days. She does not know for sure yet. Not sure if I believe that or not.
Anyway I am just trying to be supportive even though I am dying inside. She knows that she is my bug and always will be. I have told her that since she was born.

Thanks again and I will try to give you all updates as I proceed through this journey.

Dear Mushy,

You may find this new InspireMe Magazine article by Paul Rademacher helpful

If I could share 500 words to inspire, this is the important wisdom I'd want to pass along to others...

http://www.inspiremetoday.com/archiveDisp.php?type=0&ref=1891#comments

 

[Enthetan]

I'd tell her if she even thinks of disconnecting she's out of the will before you can say Jack Robinson. I'd tell her that you are grateful for children like your son who love you unconditionally no matter what you believe, and respect all you have done for them as a parent. I'd tell her you will not support her involvement with any group that has a policy of breaking up families and you refuse to pay one more skinny dime while she is there feeding them all your money while they try and turn her against you and alienate her affection. If there is an alienation of affection law like in North Carolina where you're living, I'd tell her you'll sue if the shit out of them if they dare stick their beak in between you and your daughter. And I'd ask her if she has learned nothing of values all these years that she can support any group that has such an evil policy. I'd ask her what else she supports in the name of her "religion". I'd ask her what the limits are and even if there are any.

I am truly sorry for your situation. I don't know if there's anything that can really be done once they get their hooks into your kid. It is so important to get her out, but she is an adult and there is little you can do.

I agree with Purple Rain. Sending her money will just facilitate her being dragged deeper into Scn. To be blunt, active Scns display many characteristics of junkies. They have something which sucks all their money and time out of them, and then forces them to beg money from those who love them. They are hostile to any discussion about how destructive their addiction is to themselves and their families. And they will not face their problems as long as somebody else is making it easier to continue.

If it was my kid, I would tell her that I love her, and she will always have a place to go to at my house, but I will not finance her Scn fix.

If she has no money, then Scn will display less interest in expending energy in convincing her to stay.

 

[xseaorguk]

Mt two children are already lost to the cult, but I do not give up hope, as you should not either.
Good luck!
Read this poem and watch the video below it

THE LIGHTHOUSE LETTER

Deep within your cavern dark, a spring of truth abides.
How I hope you find this bottle, for my kisses are inside.

The light outside is dazzling; escape's a costly prize.
But gentle reader, grasp my hand -- and I shall be your eyes.

Behold a gallant queen, her son lost at sea.
She built a lighthouse to the stars, in hopes that he would see.

Her heartlights sweep the beach at night, the prince perchance to see.
In a lifeboat rolling on the waves, is where I'll wait for thee.

Eleven thousand suns and moons have risen, shone and sighed,
o'er the throne of her persistent heart denied.

I've met a king, a prodigal with careworn face so kind.
On foot he bears the banner of a son he's vowed to find.

Behind him stands a motley crew of knights both young and old.
Their merriments are legend; their cause for us is bold.

And upon a mighty web composed of sliver strands,
three sisters weave the orphans' tales to far and distant lands.

Eyes behind wise spectacles are blurred by tears and rain,
and love for shipwrecked families devoured for worldly gain.

Eleven thousand suns and moons, ten million twinkling lights,
have gazed silent on our tragedy -- and this is why they fight.

Their heartlights sweep the beach at night, and lifeboats dot the sea.
May fortune speed you safely here, to reconnect with me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b8y01chxc8

 

[Purple Rain]

What you say is true, but there is a huge difference between keeping someone out of Scientology and getting a Scientologist to wake up.

When addressing anyone who is not in Scientology, I'd say be as aggressive as you want in pointing out all the problems, crimes, lies and abuses.

But not only will that not work on a Scientologist, in my opinion, it actually causes them to go the reverse direction, further into Scientology's defensive, them vs. us mindset.

Scientology can easily battle hate. After all, they are experts at hating. What Scientology can't handle is love.

The OP loves his daughter unconditionally. THAT will defeat Scientology.

Bill

That sounds very Hollywood, but the fact is that there are many parents who never get their kids back - no matter how unconditionally they love them. I saw it as part of my mother's love for me that she fought for me while I was in Scientology. It isn't about unconditional love, it's about individual choices that people have to make in terrible circumstances. While my leaving came about because of my own questioning, the seeds of doubt constantly sown by my family were a big part of that. I have already said that I defer to the wisdom and experience of others in the circumstances, but that was my experience and my story and I am glad that my family fought for me, but especially that they would die before they let my kids become Scientologists. My mother was willing to remove them bodily from my home at one stage. We, as Scientologists, were very good roads and weather with them because WE did not want to rock the boat - we were afraid of what THEY could do to cause trouble. We always sought to appease THEM. That's just how it worked in my family.

However, this girl that my ex-husband was once chasing was kicked offlines because her father was wealthy and powerful and threatening to make trouble for them. She was out the door like a hot potato much to his chagrin.

 

[Wants2Talk]

It has been 11 years since I lost 2 daughters and a son to the cult. My doctor asked how I was today and I broke down and cried like a baby. I accepted his advice to get some counseling. But it is with a woman social worker, which is like woman rape victim being counseled by a man. I am so sad and hardly ever smile. I foolishly believed it would never happen, after all, I had raised them. Do not trust the ex, the state or the cult. Consider war. Sorry for the down-tone comm". So far, time has not been on my side. Consider war - just my truth today.

 

[Purple Rain]

It has been 11 years since I lost 2 daughters and a son to the cult. My doctor asked how I was today and I broke down and cried like a baby. I accepted his advice to get some counseling. But it is with a woman social worker, which is like woman rape victim being counseled by a man. I am so sad and hardly ever smile. I foolishly believed it would never happen, after all, I had raised them. Do not trust the ex, the state or the cult. Consider war. Sorry for the down-tone comm". So far, time has not been on my side. Consider war - just my truth today.

Don't be sorry. You are not alone. There are many people suffering alienation due to many groups and individuals. It is always an awful thing. We take the road that seems best at the time and that's really all we can do. I'm glad you are seeking counseling. It should be quite easy to change to a male counselor. I've done that before where the situation was reversed and I was also more comfortable talking to someone of the same gender. And there is still hope.

 

[Free to shine]

In the 20 years or so since I got out of the Sea Org I have learned one horrible fact - short of physically kidnapping someone I have NEVER seen an aggressive campaign work to keep a family together or to get someone out. I have seen it get someone off service or on mandatory beaching - but never seen it reunite the people involved. I am not claiming that it has NEVER happened but every case I know of, where the parents or siblings of friends have insisted on wellness checks, have harassed the Org with phone calls, have traveled with protest signs (and this involves the stories in MLM survivors too) they have all failed. ALL OF THEM.

Just on this point 2 cases spring to mind - when Feral led the charge in Sydney to get Illegal Alien's son out, that worked. Also Happy Days (Liz) got one of her daughters out with an aggressive campaign. They both still have other children still in, but they did succeed with a couple.

These children were however already deeply entrenched in the SO, which the OP's daughter is not. If she is wavering then 'good roads' is probably the best option.

But when your child comes to you and says stop posting or I disconnect, which was my road, my integrity demanded that I not bow to that blackmail. She is an adult and will eventually see the light and no matter the personal heartache it is better than being stomped all over by scientology. I can hold my head up and be here and sane when she breaks the bubble.