Snow White Redux . . . a smoking derringer?

[I told you I was trouble]

Emphasis mine.

You're doing it again ... this time you have apparently decided that something was said or implied by me (but at no point did I say or imply that you "got it wrong on purpose" and I don't think that now) and then you've added your opinion based on that false assumption (apparently I am going to have a "poor outlook on life") and I suppose that will become your "memory" of this discussion ... mine will differ, a lot ... just as Mike Rinders did.

I give up ... do what you like.

Emphasis mine. You're doing it again. And don't misquote me. I said "anyone" with that attitude. See? You've already mis-remembered what I said.

Bollocks, you meant me and you know you did.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Paul

 

[Moderator 464]

Can we please keep a lid on the inter-personal arguments?

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Can we please keep a lid on the inter-personal arguments?

It wasn't meant to become an argument, but it kind of grew into one ... I apologise.

 

[JustSheila]

I apologize to Mike Rinder for getting it wrong. Sorry, Mike. Maybe Val Lisa said your name to me and called you the Director of USGO as a joke because there was a conflict between something the CMO was doing and the GO was doing at the time, then afterwards, every time I heard her say Mike (Little), I thought she meant Mike Rinder. That's the only scenario I can think of that might explain.

IDK. I am sure NOW that I got it wrong, though.

What I wrote demonstrates how it is to work with someone who saw the world in black and white, good hats and bad hats and how their influence can effect someone else. I'm leaving the post the way it is because I knew plenty of people who got temporarily caught up in that sort of insanity and it is a glimpse of how things appeared at the USGO to an 18 year old who did not grow up in scientology.

Clearly, if anyone besides me thought Mike Rinder was in the GO before, there should be no doubts at all anymore from anyone that he was not, until it became OSA. So maybe it's good it came up.

Janis Grady is a sweetheart. Thank you, Janis, for your patience and the way you calmly addressed this with me. You're so cool.

If you sent Janis here, Hobbs, thanks for doing that. It was a wise choice.

ADDED: DChoice, if you would be so kind as to post a portion of this or link it to wherever you posted my other post on Mike Rinder's blog, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Jump]

Popcorn $2

Choc ices $3

Soda $1.50


​

 

[RogerB]

Denzil Gogerly. Peruvian, I believe. Nice guy, unlike Herbie.

Ernest Denzil S Gogerly, I see after googling him. Died 1984. I met him a few times when I worked in Treasury AOSHUK. I interacted more with his wife Cathy, who worked as a Letter Reg typist (after leaving the GO) at the same time I was a Letter Reg.

Paul

Ya, Denny was a thoroughly pleasant gentleman. I always thought, believed, him to have been Indian heritage (Asian Indian from that country) he spoke perfect English but with a very slight Asian accent.

He and Cathy were on staff with me in Melbourne '62-'64. He did the early SHSBC '62 and returned to Melbourne as the tech wizzzzz and became Org Sec . . . . Cathy was DofP.

Denny was a very gracious man, while Cathy was wont to have opinions that misled her from optimum relationships.

R

 

[Dulloldfart]

Ya, Denny was a thoroughly pleasant gentleman. I always thought, believed, him to have been Indian heritage (Asian Indian from that country) he spoke perfect English but with a very slight Asian accent.

He and Cathy were on staff with me in Melbourne '62-'64. He did the early SHSBC '62 and returned to Melbourne as the tech wizzzzz and became Org Sec . . . . Cathy was DofP.

Denny was a very gracious man, while Cathy was wont to have opinions that misled her from optimum relationships.

R

Thanks. You knew him better than I did, and your idea of his heritage seems more likely than mine. Cathy . . . , er, yes.

Paul

 

[Gizmo]

Hi, Girls. Do either of you remember a GO OP called APRiL? ( Alliance for Religious Liberty, referred to as "Alliance for Religious Lunatics" by us J&Ders)?
Do you remember Ralph ( "Ziggy") Woods?

I knew Ziggy very well.

If we're talking to same Ziggy - at CC on La Brea mid 70's & not much later died in his sleep.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

. . .
I'm slightly flawed because I don't subscribe to automatic "fast flow forgiveness"
for high-level Int base execs who leave after they were part of the inner circle
and participated in all the secrecy and crazy shore story invention for decades.

I began this thread to document some of the public statements made by those
exes, specifically Marty and Mike. Though Mike is celebrated today, and maybe
he should be, I won't be celebrating him until he tells "what he knew and when
he knew it."

Mike and Marty found out that there were no upper OT levels around 1987-8,
but sat on the revelation for nearly thirty years. Cost me about $32,000 for the
"OT 9&10 package" and a divorce. Much more actually.

I wish they had spoken sooner. This is information we should have known.

Mike Rinder says​

November 13, 2017 at 12:42 pm
​

None of this is invented.
​

You should perhaps pay more attention to the people who were actually ​

there and spend less time trying to defend the indefensible.
​

I was part of the armed raid that went to the secret property in Newberry Springs ​

to get the files that Pat Broeker supposedly had of the “OT levels beyond VIII” ​

but there were no such thing…
​

What the old OT levels “prove” is absolutely nothing. They are not OT IX to XV ​

– don’t believe me, read up on what L. Ron Hubbard claimed about OT levels ​

beyond OT VIII.​

Reference: My parody of what might have gone on is here: From the Cutting Room Floor

 

[ILove2Lurk]

. . .
Update:

Mike Rinder says​

November 13, 2017 at 3:01 pm
​

I did not know that the filing cabinets and papers gotten in that raid contained nothing. ​

Miscavige pretenses for years that he had gotten everything he needed and it would ​

be released in good time. It was Marty Rathbun that eventually put all the pieces together ​

for me after I had left. Including making sense of conversations I witnessed Miscavige ​

having with or about Ray Mithoff.​

 

[Enthetan]

Mike Rinder says November 13, 2017 at 12:42 pm​

(snip)

I was part of the armed raid that went to the secret property in Newberry Springs to get the files that Pat Broeker supposedly had of the “OT levels beyond VIII” but there were no such thing…​

So Mike admits, in writing, that he engaged in an act of armed robbery?

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

This may not seem very charitable but reading this thread again I hope Val Lisa came to a sticky end, at least as far as her role in the CofS was concerned. She's clearly caused a lot of misery to some good people.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

. . .
Here's another "smoking gun," of sorts, that confirms again what I've been
saying for years and years since I arrived here on the message board. That Marty,
Mike, Heber, and the whole top tier of SO executives knew all about the scam
after about 1988 or so and willfully chose to continue the lies and fraud. This
is despite what they claim now. And this is why so many of them are locked
up and incommunicado for the rest of their lives.

Excerpt from Steve Hall article on Tony's​

In the advice, LRH said that he had been Lucifer, whose name meant “bringer of light.” He said that Jesus was a lover of young boys, etc. After we read the advice, COB wanted to know what Dan and I thought about it. We didn’t really know what to say (as per usual, a fact which drove COB nuts) since with COB anytime he asked you a question, you were on the edge of a precipice. Answer wrong, and you could expect instant retaliation and likely punishment. In that kind of situation, something vague was usually a safer response. So we both just said we thought it was “really cool.” COB questioned us a bit more to verify we had a positive reaction to it. We said we thought it was “definitely OT.” After he saw our reaction was “positive,” he looked at Marc Yager as if to say, “See, I told you so you, you stupid fuck.”
​

Fair use from: More proof that L. Ron Hubbard . . .​

I wrote a fictional "words from Marty's mouth" satire a while back,
but I think it conveys the whole behind-the-scenes story quite well.

Link to my post: Marty's candid outtakes from the cutting room floor

They all knew and chose to keep the scam going after 1986-88. They
were not dupes. We were the dupes.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Bugger
Ugly
Markabian
Pygmys

 

[guanoloco]

. . .
Here's another "smoking gun," of sorts, that confirms again what I've been
saying for years and years since I arrived here on the message board. That Marty,
Mike, Heber, and the whole top tier of SO executives knew all about the scam
after about 1988 or so and willfully chose to continue the lies and fraud. This
is despite what they claim now. And this is why so many of them are locked
up and incommunicado for the rest of their lives.

Excerpt from Steve Hall article on Tony's
In the advice, LRH said that he had been Lucifer, whose name meant “bringer of light.” He said that Jesus was a lover of young boys, etc. After we read the advice, COB wanted to know what Dan and I thought about it. We didn’t really know what to say (as per usual, a fact which drove COB nuts) since with COB anytime he asked you a question, you were on the edge of a precipice. Answer wrong, and you could expect instant retaliation and likely punishment. In that kind of situation, something vague was usually a safer response. So we both just said we thought it was “really cool.” COB questioned us a bit more to verify we had a positive reaction to it. We said we thought it was “definitely OT.” After he saw our reaction was “positive,” he looked at Marc Yager as if to say, “See, I told you so you, you stupid fuck.”

Fair use from: More proof that L. Ron Hubbard . . .​

I wrote a fictional "words from Marty's mouth" satire a while back,
but I think it conveys the whole behind-the-scenes story quite well.

Link to my post: Marty's candid outtakes from the cutting room floor

They all knew and chose to keep the scam going after 1986-88. They
were not dupes. We were the dupes.

Hmmmm...this is interesting. Appears to have posted on Tony O's site on the same date Lurk posted here.

In it, Steve Hall has this to say of Hubbard:

Tony, I read your post about the new LRH criminal/con man hoping to pick up where the original LRH criminal/con man left off.
​

He goes on from there to authenticate the original Anti Christ OT VIII, Hubbard's Affirmations that shocked and appalled Hall and, finally, that Hubbard's biography was an impossible task due to Hubbard's conduct.

In short, Hall has zero good to say about Hubbard.

When did this change?

AFAIK Hall was a staunch supporter of Hubbard Good/Miscavige Bad. He claimed to be the first whistleblower and pro Hubbard.

I was under the impression that FriendsOfLRH.org and scientology-cult.com and iscientology.com and savescientology.com, etc., were all designed and implemented by Hall.

Also, I ran across this on scientology-cult.com from January 2010.

Marty and I go way back together. He is going to allow me to post stories on his site. I consider it a privilege. I am going to try to keep my ego out of it and just tell the truth, as difficult as it may be. I need to tell the truth about the last days. I am no longer connected in any way with the current Church of Scientology but I cannot abandon all of LRH’s efforts to help people and clear this planet. Till his death he lived Scientology.

Love, Sarge
​

I was under the impression that by 2013 his story of Hubbard trying to suicide by electrocution had disaffected him from Hubbard.

So, it appears that Hall poses as a Hubbard supporter but isn't and that Sarge appeared to not be a Hubbard supporter but was.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

. . .
Maybe Mike Rinder doesn't know a whole lot and was drifting
around in a state of wilful blindness all that time.

Mike Rinder says​

March 4, 2019 at 7:50 pm
​

So the appointment of the Broekers was not written by him [LRH]?
​

I dont know. I was not there. I think if he [LRH] had the mental capacity he would have done something on video so there could be no doubt it was his intention. But that being said, it is FAR more likely he would have turned over to the Broekers than to Miscavige. Miscavige was not even in Creston. He didn’t call for him to come like he did Ray Mithoff.
​

Could he [LRH] have written a final message and it not been passed on, so it may still be out there?
​

Highly unlikely. Sarge would have mentioned it.
​

Or was his [LRH] medical condition such that he was not able to and the end was a free for all?
​

That about sums it up.​

 

[JustSheila]

. . .
Maybe Mike Rinder doesn't know a whole lot and was drifting
around in a state of wilful blindness all that time.

Mike Rinder says​

March 4, 2019 at 7:50 pm​

​

So the appointment of the Broekers was not written by him?​

​

I dont know. I was not there. I think if he [LRH] had the mental capacity he would have done something on video so there could be no doubt it was his intention. But that being said, it is FAR more likely he would have turned over to the Broekers than to Miscavige. Miscavige was not even in Creston. He didn’t call for him to come like he did Ray Mithoff.​

​

Could he have written a final message and it not been passed on, so it may still be out there?​

​

Highly unlikely. Sarge would have mentioned it.​

​

Or was his medical condition such that he was not able to and the end was a free for all?​

​

That about sums it up.​

I think this quote is completely honest on Mike Rinder's part. Accurate, too.

I don't think Mike Rinder tells all, but I don't think he's dishonest, either. There's a difference.

Like many ex-SO, Mike Rinder has probably forgotten a lot, too. Everyone deals with cognitive dissonance differently. I know a 25 year SO veteran who only remembers minor details and events, but can't remember most of her time there. Each day blended with the next and she was chronically short of sleep and under stress.

Some try to fill in gaps in their memory with other people's accounts. That doesn't work out very well, either. The dub-in people are the worst of all. It's like they got their imaginative auditing sessions all mixed up with real life.

Mike Rinder doesn't do that. He's a straight shooter. He may not tell all, but IMO, he doesn't lie to us, either.

Jesse Prince said it was a free-for-all political push and mess, too. Maybe you can ask him about it.

 

[ILove2Lurk]

I think this quote is completely honest on Mike Rinder's part. Accurate, too.

I have a few events I'd like to have Mike give some opinions about.

Here's something I wrote to him about these fellows below:

[xtable=skin1|442x194]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=432x@}

{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]

​

It’s always intrigued me, which of these guys were the inventors of the shore stories, the lies, and which were simply the enablers of the shore stories.
​

We know Hubbard invented a so-called “science,” but how did he end up himself? I can only go by the actual outcomes it produced in him.
​

Hubbard was very physically ill on and off from about 1968 to his death in 1986 (ages 57 to 75). Much more so than most people his age. He suffered from multiple bouts of pneumonia yearly at one time (admitted in a personal letter), heart attacks, strokes, pancreatitis (taken to hospital in early ’85 for a very bad attack . . . could not walk by himself), among other things.
​

From age 64 on, he exhibited early signs of dementia or senility. I’m not a doctor so I can’t exactly describe it . . . but he had it. Something going on there. (From my readings of posts and discussions with people who worked directly with him face to face. Also, his personal doctor, Denk, has said as much, as corroborated by Bill Franks.) He suffered from an uncontrollable temper and rages as he got older.
​

He wished to die in 1985 and attempted to take his life in November, so we’re told by his close friend and confidant, Sarge. In 1986, he volitionally withheld proper medical treatment at a hospital for a stroke or two, so he would die.
​

By 1988, Marty along with Monique Yingling, Greg Whilhere, Miscavige, six PIs, and quite a few others had raided LRH’s former ranch at Newbury Springs and absconded with a treasure trove of LRH’s auditing folders and research notes. Marty and the other senior execs pictured above would have, should have known by then (with total certainty I’m guessing) that OT 9 & 10 didn’t exist in any way, shape or form. That the promises of the upper bridge were essentially unachieved, so essentially a fraud, and that LRH came to ignoble ending.
​

Can you share with us who were the originators and perpetrators of the lies and false mythologies post-1986? These events and stories did not just “happen” out of the blue. They were caused and invented by somebody(s). The bridge turned into a volitional false act and carefully orchestrated fraud at that point. Who are the liars and who are the enablers here? Who were the members of the secret cabal that knowingly lied for decades?
​

Otherwise, we have only a conspiracy of one, David Miscavige, and no one else knew a thing. Some have said as much.
​

Who invented the LRH achieved OT, LRH invincibility, and Target Two disembodied research stories after LRH’s death? DM? Broeker? Cooley? Who knew better but covered up the truth? Ray Mithoff?
​

Who invented the story that OT 9&10 existed and would become available? That one cost me about $30K in a donation for a future imaginary level. The RTC that Marty was the head of at the time sent out a letter about it in the early 90’s and I paid up.
​

Who wrote the Original OT 8 and which of the guys in the photo knew that it was not LRH? Who just went along to get along but knew better?
​

My theory is that these guys are locked up because they know way too much and are too dangerous to be on the loose and free. If any of them talked and told the true details of the steps that were taken post-1986 to perpetuate the con, the COS would collapse pretty quickly. The easy solution then would be to keep them locked up and incommunicado until they pass away.
​

I believe that all these stories and lies were invented by specific individuals and then others hid the actual truths they knew. It cost me a ton in cash and personal grief. I’d like to know the “who” or “whos” behind all this.
​

Mike, what can you tell us?
​

Mike seemed willing to chat about it some, but he said it's to complex a
question for a post. I noticed in his last podcast with Ron Miscavige, Mike
had opened up a bit more about the past with some interesting reveals.

I'm writing Ron and Mike a long letter about some of the same topics, which
I'd like him to take up in his next podcast. I think it would be intriguing.

I just don't see how Scientology could have continued on past 1986-88
without a whole bunch of people in on the con at that point. So much had
been uncovered about Hubbard by then.

If he doesn't want to or can't, well OK.

 

[JustSheila]

I have a few events I'd like to have Mike give some opinions about.

Here's something I wrote to him about these fellows below:

[xtable=skin1|442x194]
{tbody}
{tr}
{td=432x@}

{/td}
{/tr}
{/tbody}
[/xtable]

​

It’s always intrigued me, which of these guys were the inventors of the shore stories, the lies, and which were simply the enablers of the shore stories.

We know Hubbard invented a so-called “science,” but how did he end up himself? I can only go by the actual outcomes it produced in him.

Hubbard was very physically ill on and off from about 1968 to his death in 1986 (ages 57 to 75). Much more so than most people his age. He suffered from multiple bouts of pneumonia yearly at one time (admitted in a personal letter), heart attacks, strokes, pancreatitis (taken to hospital in early ’85 for a very bad attack . . . could not walk by himself), among other things.

From age 64 on, he exhibited early signs of dementia or senility. I’m not a doctor so I can’t exactly describe it . . . but he had it. Something going on there. (From my readings of posts and discussions with people who worked directly with him face to face. Also, his personal doctor, Denk, has said as much, as corroborated by Bill Franks.) He suffered from an uncontrollable temper and rages as he got older.

He wished to die in 1985 and attempted to take his life in November, so we’re told by his close friend and confidant, Sarge. In 1986, he volitionally withheld proper medical treatment at a hospital for a stroke or two, so he would die.

By 1988, Marty along with Monique Yingling, Greg Whilhere, Miscavige, six PIs, and quite a few others had raided LRH’s former ranch at Newbury Springs and absconded with a treasure trove of LRH’s auditing folders and research notes. Marty and the other senior execs pictured above would have, should have known by then (with total certainty I’m guessing) that OT 9 & 10 didn’t exist in any way, shape or form. That the promises of the upper bridge were essentially unachieved, so essentially a fraud, and that LRH came to ignoble ending.

Can you share with us who were the originators and perpetrators of the lies and false mythologies post-1986? These events and stories did not just “happen” out of the blue. They were caused and invented by somebody(s). The bridge turned into a volitional false act and carefully orchestrated fraud at that point. Who are the liars and who are the enablers here? Who were the members of the secret cabal that knowingly lied for decades?

Otherwise, we have only a conspiracy of one, David Miscavige, and no one else knew a thing. Some have said as much.

Who invented the LRH achieved OT, LRH invincibility, and Target Two disembodied research stories after LRH’s death? DM? Broeker? Cooley? Who knew better but covered up the truth? Ray Mithoff?

Who invented the story that OT 9&10 existed and would become available? That one cost me about $30K in a donation for a future imaginary level. The RTC that Marty was the head of at the time sent out a letter about it in the early 90’s and I paid up.

Who wrote the Original OT 8 and which of the guys in the photo knew that it was not LRH? Who just went along to get along but knew better?

My theory is that these guys are locked up because they know way too much and are too dangerous to be on the loose and free. If any of them talked and told the true details of the steps that were taken post-1986 to perpetuate the con, the COS would collapse pretty quickly. The easy solution then would be to keep them locked up and incommunicado until they pass away.

I believe that all these stories and lies were invented by specific individuals and then others hid the actual truths they knew. It cost me a ton in cash and personal grief. I’d like to know the “who” or “whos” behind all this.

Mike, what can you tell us?
​

Mike seemed willing to chat about it some, but he said it's to complex a
question for a post. I noticed in his last podcast with Ron Miscavige, Mike
had opened up a bit more about the past with some interesting reveals.

I'm writing Ron and Mike a long letter about some of the same topics, which
I'd like him to take up in his next podcast. I think it would be intriguing.

I just don't see how Scientology could have continued on past 1986-88
without a whole bunch of people in on the con at that point. So much had
been uncovered about Hubbard by then.

If he doesn't want to or can't, well OK.

You have great questions.

My understanding is that as L Ron became increasingly paranoid, he allowed fewer people near him. Before DM became a major player, one or L Ron's most trusted friends was Andre Tabayoyon. I knew Andre and his wife Mary very well back in the late 70s until 1986. Andre had served as personal butler, L Ron's personal protector and many other things. Around 1982 or 1983 Andre was cut out of the picture, though, and he was deeply hurt. Andre felt this was DM's doing and that Miscavige had intentionally and systematically cut L Ron off from his personal network. However, with L Ron's paranoia, much of this might have been his own doing, too.

Dr. Denk was completely complicit in knowing and hiding the lies surrounding L Ron Hubbard's health and provided drugs and acted as his personal physician, beginning some time around 1982 as best I can figure. I used to see Dr. Denk at Shaw Health Center before he went to Hemet for extended periods to serve L Ron and I remember his disappearance and how much he changed after he returned to Shaw Health Center after L Ron died.

I believe Pat Broeker was aware and complicit in a number of the lies told to us. I'm not sure about Annie. She didn't seem cunning the way Pat was, and Pat was vying for control of Scientology, as far as I can tell from the firsthand accounts of others.

I don't know about the rest. That's the picture I have of what happened, though.

"In taking command of Scientology after Hubbard's death, Miscavige survived a challenge from two other Hubbard lieutenants once thought to be his likely successors: Pat and Anne Broeker, who had been in hiding with Hubbard.

The power struggle was so intense at one point that even Hubbard's final Scientology writings, revered as sacred scriptures, became the object of a tug of war between Miscavige and Pat Broeker, according to Vicki Aznaran, a top Scientology executive who left the church in 1987 after a falling out. Aznaran said Broeker threatened to use the writings to start his own church."

https://www.latimes.com/local/la-scientologysideb062490-story.html

According to Jesse's book, Pat Broeker's claimed leverage was over L Ron's secret writings and Pat continued to assert that the OT levels existed and only he knew where they were and used this as his power play for a long time after L Ron died.