A bold statement.

[Voltaire's Child]

Interesting. I didn't get as much "case gain" in my postings as I may have with auditing, but neither did I get as much net case gain in auditing as I'd expected to.

I think I've gotten as much or more out of meditation.

I bet it differs from person to person. In Scn, the idea is that all cases run mainly the same. That's one of many things I've been questioning.

 

[Sindy]

Yeah, looking back a bit more carefully, that was the way it was for me too. MOST of it was enjoyable. Some did suck, and felt like I was beating a dead horse (overrun, made to do actions that were unnecessary?).

There were moments in my early auditing (Grades) where I was completely content with the results. I had no need or desire to do anything else. Yet, I was always "forced" to continue on the "bridge". They SHOULD have said, "okay, go out and do what you want, and come back whenever you feel like you might want some more". But THAT sure never happened!

Gadfly,

I am with you that many amazing things happened while in Scientology and I had some great experiences and truly lasting gains.

That being said, this is my belief:

There are many still unexplained mental/spiritual phenomena in this world.

I have also experienced levitation. What about the mother who picks up a 2 ton vehicle because her child is under it? There are witnesses to such things.

Hypnosis works. Occult rituals are said to work.

Too much is unknown and Scientology, though sometimes getting a good result, is completely experimental and not worth pursuing as the potential dangers far outweigh any real or imagined gain.

I'm happy that Mimsey helped someone with the "tech" that seemed to work, this time, for this individual. Let's throw out another scenario, what if this person became worse? Would Mimsey or anyone else know for certain what to do about that?

Scientologists just assume that there is always a piece of tech that will work if one just finds the right one.

It feels great to be empowered to feel that one can help others with certainty and yet the fact that any non-professional thinks that they can lay open another's mind and have at it because they are safe in doing so because the tech works, is irresponsible.

Scientology's answer to those failures is that the auditor did something wrong or that the person was any number of types of PTS, etc.

In addition, these gains at the bottom of the Bridge eventually, or supposedly, lead to the top of the Bridge where too many people go insane, commit suicide, get cancer, etc. These statistics are not natural and especially not the statistics one would expect while making "super humans".

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Among the things that broke the ice with me- that really got me to start questioning my involvement with CofS- were the experiences people wrote about.

The flippant stuff is fun but it didn't get me out. Nor do I see that stuff as destructive.

I do think that the personality crap can be destructive. I believe that it may often be a result of people feeling like they know each other and just feeling free to reach out and say whatever is on their minds, including things like not being able to stand the person, you do this, you do that, etc, etc. As I've noted before, the standards for internet interaction seem largely different than IRL. I would be hard pressed to imagine what would happen to a number of people here were they to follow someone IRL from place to place insulting them and actually expecting not to get called on it. And in this I include making highly personal and judgmental evaluations of the person and then being truly at a loss to understand why the recipient might actually not like that.

The internet is a strange beast. Human reactions, perceptions and actions become magnified.

I really understand you see it that way and sometimes it is exactly like that, but, not always.

To my way of seeing it, sometimes a person does something that another person rightly or wrongly takes exception to and responds.

Now to a person who saw nothing wrong with what was said the response from the person who felt it was outrageous will seem way over the top....will it not?

That is one of the reasons I tend to keep my nose out of other peoples disagreements.

The first person may say something and other person in one response does not feel the matter is settled for them and so on it goes into another conversation.

That may not be right, just may not, but those are not my shoes - or feelings - and I tend to let those adults resolve their differences.

At this point in life, those who can not reslove simple differences between themselves and one another do not need my help... they need professional help.

But, yes, some people do sometimes take things too far ( me included ) - and most people manage to work things out for themselves no matter which end of the stick they are on........or they get some kind of professional help to resolve their issues.

Maybe I'd say friends let friends resolve it...or walk away. Was my Mama wrong when she told me it takes two to tango?

 

[SweetnessandLight]

I don't have enough information to know if that is true, and it is NOT for a lack of trying to answer that (whether the same or similar gains of Scn are available in "other modalities").

For example, take the phenomena known as "line charging". There were many times in session where I would answer a seemingly innocuous enough question, and BANG, it was like the floor fell out from under me. I am not exaggerating at all. Charge (energy) was exiting out of me by the bundle, and I would BURST into uncontrollable fits of laughter. It was like experiencing intense JOY, but without ANY "reason".

It happened many times to/for me. That sure NEVER happened in my many years of meditations, visualization, study of other practices, etc.

So, I AM curious. In the name of honestly, has ANYONE reading this ever experienced a similar sort of thing in ANY "other practice" or religion? Heck, when I was doing OT II the line-charge went on for almost 10 minutes. It was truly mind-boggling, and it was "wonderful". I felt "cleaned out" on a mental level. I was, how should I say, ecstatic (like in flights of "religious ecstasy").

This line-charging always was concurrent with or ended with some great "key-out"' "incredible happiness" or "exteriorization". I remember when it first happened in Life Repair, and I was amazed. It was intense and severe - in the best of possible ways. I had no idea that such a thing could, should or would happen. I was totally unprepared for such a dramatic "mental and physical phenomena". Especially at the very BEGINNING of my involvement with Scientology auditing. Of course, I wanted MORE of THAT.

I have heard people state that "all of the same gains you ever got in Scientology are available elsewhere". Okay. Just as far as this ONE THING known as "line-charging", where? Please fill me in, because after quite a bit of study, looking and examination, I have NEVER found ANY other "therapy" or "technique" designed to or able to bring about this (highly desirable) thing called "line-charging". :confused2:

Note: I am NOT familiar with every therapy or practice, and have NOT surveyed every person on Earth. So I AM "missing data".

Oh also, I wasn't the "only one". I knew friends who reported the same thing to me over the years, and I SAW people come out of session in similar states.

So, if the "tech" doesn't "work", then WHAT exactly brought about that effect "consistently" in different people?

And, where are the "other practices" that provide the same or similar "floor falling out from under me" phenomena? Over and over and over?

I am curious how many will explain this all away, excuse it as "something else", or ignore the question, and fail to provide any sort of honest and convincing answer. Please, point me to the people and practices that get a SIMILAR result. Note: I was NOT unconscious, out of it, hallucinating, dreaming or on any sort of "trance". I was THERE, in present time, in the moment, like NEVER before!

There is a thing I really HATED asbout Scientology. It was how any Scientology church member or staff member would explain away, excuse, justify or ignore the question, for example, with something about Paulette Cooper, and with anything that questioned or disputed the accepted Hubbard/Scientology party-line. They REFUSED to honestly look at ANYTHING that disrupted their fixed model of reality. It saddens me when I see it here also on ESMB.

Truth is all that matters (to me), and not whether the "facts" fit some person's preconceived notions or not. But it works both ways.

And maybe, there ARE some or many other techniques out there, readily available, and cheap, that can blast me out of my head by answering a few questions and quickly push me into a state of peace, serenity, joy and "being there without effort".

"So, I AM curious. In the name of honestly, has ANYONE reading this ever experienced a similar sort of thing in ANY "other practice" or religion? Heck, when I was doing OT II the line-charge went on for almost 10 minutes. It was truly mind-boggling, and it was "wonderful". I felt "cleaned out" on a mental level. I was, how should I say, ecstatic (like in flights of "religious ecstasy")."


Gadfly, I can say that yes, I have experienced something very similar to what you have described here...euphoric response when I got past "hitting the wall" and got my "second wind" (runners will know) when summiting 14.000 plus foot peaks. One time in particular I literally laid flat out on the ground at the summit, with the sides of my body touching the bodies of the two climbers beside me who were barely known to me, and felt the greatest sense of connection, to my self, to the world, to the Universe, and to all other life forms, that I have ever experienced. Beyond orgasmic...oneness and completion! I laughed and laughed! It was delightful....all my aches and pains disappeared and I fairly floated back down the mountain to base camp, and then joyfully cooked dinner for everyone! I'm sure oxygen deprivation and physical exhaustion triggered some mechanism neurologically that we are all hard-wired with to enable us to survive...but it was also a very moving Spiritual experience for me that changed me forever! One I still tap into. I KNOW that I am not just my body.

I also have experienced this in a hula halau (school), where the pounding drumbeat and chants and our bodies all moving together caused an entrainment of our bodies, minds and spirits...it was like being a school of fish or a flight of birds doing murmuresence like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eakKfY5aHmY&feature=share

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tGOKngtkt4&feature=related

Also when doing Aikido in the round, called doing randori, when being "attacked" from all sides in testing conditions. Just laughed and laughed and laughed....felt buoyant and joyous, experienced perception outside my own vision and could "read" my attackers moves and intentions before they acted...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvJ7JkocWn0&feature=related

I've also seen and experienced it in some spirit-filled Christian church services...just sitting or standing in a pew...not doing anything physically but REALLY BEING THERE where most of the congregation was transported in ecstatic praise and worship.

And during a puja when receiving darshan...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darśana

and then there is always "laughing yoga"! (Hee...Hee...HAHAHA!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqd7YTwQAWs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXEfjVnYkqM
http://www.laughteryoga.org/

I've experienced it in 4th way study groups and pagan feminist covens, while surfing and snorkeling in the ocean, and even when performing on stage! Also just sitting quietly in my garden and talking with the birds and the lizards (I so GET St. Francis with his brother sun, sister moon stuff!)

Gadfly, not in any way to belittle your good experience, I validate that you had it and experienced it while into "doing" Scientology, but I think this experience of transcendence and release, or satori-like moments where we delightfully expand in some mysterious way, and never really shrink back down to where we were before, (for lack of a better way to express it) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori is really very readily available by multiple means to us as humans...I think we're hardwired to experience it... I think if we live long enough we all will experience it naturally, most of us experience it in childhood, those of us who are seekers and questers, probably get more than our fair share of the spiritual fun stuff in life! But I think it's attainable for everyone!

How much "case gain" did I get from these various experiences which caused me to experience similar results to yours? A TON! Growth in self-confidence, ability to empathize and relate with others, understanding more and more of the big picture of life, better communication skills, steadfastness in my point of view while able to consider others', ability to overcome obstacles, both external and internal, strength, wisdom, joy, peace of mind, happiness, health, caring for others?

It's HUGE! And I didn't need any part of Scientology to do it! (and it was mostly FREE )

I know that you don't feel this personally, but just for all that still do:
To consider that Scientology processing, cramped, flawed, dangerous and regimented as it is, is the only way to produce this growth is laughable to my mind, based on my life experience.

No offense meant to anyone.
This is true.

Namaste!

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Re: Exploitation of the process of abreaction: "aberrative" pleasure moment in a cult

Something triggered something. Whatever it was, was real enough, and the laughter was real, and the relief was real.

However, you laughed for ten minutes while addressing what was said to be ancient previously inaccessible universal history (provided in your confidential materials) on route out of the labyrinth, escaping the next endless agonized trillions, on your way to becoming an Operating Thetan, and now, every time it's mentioned, it, unintentionally, becomes a commercial for OT 2 and, by, implication, the rest of the OT levels. Do you recommend that people do OT 2 and the Scientology Bridge? And if not, why not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnL0Mnu46z8

Other people have similar experiences, but they're not associated with anything, and are often not remembered. There's no significance to them.

HAH! I LOVE Steve Allen! Great to see him falling out laughing like this, and yet he was such a professional, notice he got out his cue for the next clip and hit it again just to make sure!!! I love that look at the no missed beat sound guy, and the "you're a better man than I am!". Perfect delivery!!!

 

[Auditor's Toad]

<snip>
I know that you don't feel this personally, but just for all that still do:
To consider that Scientology processing, cramped, flawed, dangerous and regimented as it is, is the only way to produce this growth is laughable to my mind, based on my life experience.

No offense meant to anyone.
<snip>

Thank you so much for your post - and the elegance with which it was expressed.

I need to get over being gobsmacked by people who sincerely believe that scientology is the greatest thing that ever happened in the history of mankind ( and nothing else could possibly matter ).

A lot like a small kid jumping up and down screaming about a ( skippy ) peanut butter and ( store brand grape) jelly ( white wonder bread )sandwich being the bestest thing on earth and all anybody should ever eat !

Hopefully, the child will grow up to enjoy, maybe, filet mignon and lobster or perhaps sushi.

Or maybe like a young girl ( or guy ) or has just experienced their first ( non family ) kiss expressing estatic feelings about that being the greatest feeling on earth to older friends who are long past virginity.


Maybe the time has come for me to shut up and let each find their own way - or not - from the joys of peanut butter sandwichs that Momma packed 'em off to kindergarden with.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Gadfly,

I am with you that many amazing things happened while in Scientology and I had some great experiences and truly lasting gains.

That being said, this is my belief:

There are many still unexplained mental/spiritual phenomena in this world.

I have also experienced levitation. What about the mother who picks up a 2 ton vehicle because her child is under it? There are witnesses to such things.

Hypnosis works. Occult rituals are said to work.

Too much is unknown and Scientology, though sometimes getting a good result, is completely experimental and not worth pursuing as the potential dangers far outweigh any real or imagined gain.

I'm happy that Mimsey helped someone with the "tech" that seemed to work, this time, for this individual. Let's throw out another scenario, what if this person became worse? Would Mimsey or anyone else know for certain what to do about that?

Scientologists just assume that there is always a piece of tech that will work if one just finds the right one.

It feels great to be empowered to feel that one can help others with certainty and yet the fact that any non-professional thinks that they can lay open another's mind and have at it because they are safe in doing so because the tech works, is irresponsible.

Scientology's answer to those failures is that the auditor did something wrong or that the person was any number of types of PTS, etc.

In addition, these gains at the bottom of the Bridge eventually, or supposedly, lead to the top of the Bridge where too many people go insane, commit suicide, get cancer, etc. These statistics are not natural and especially not the statistics one would expect while making "super humans".

Synthia, darling, you're going on "Golden Quotes!"

This should be tattooed on the consciousness of everyone who reads here:

"It feels great to be empowered to feel that one can help others with certainty and yet the fact that any non-professional thinks that they can lay open another's mind and have at it because they are safe in doing so because the tech works, is irresponsible."

 

[olska]

Re: Exploitation of the process of abreaction: "aberrative" pleasure moment in a cult

...

The apparent "chain" of earlier-similars that runs to an EP (life repair, rude, dianetics, etc, etc. etc.) is really just this:

1. COMPARING ONE'S "CHARGE" (PROBLEM, WORRY, UPSET, ETC) TO SOMETHING ELSE AND TALKING ABOUT IT. In the car of standard tech auditing, the magical paradigm is the "earlier similar" technique run to "basic" and the "blown charge".

2. IF THE CHARGE DOESN'T BLOW ON EASILY RECALLABLE EARLIER INCIDENTS, ONE IS TO FIND "WHOLE TRACK" EARLIERS.

The sudden insight that I just had is that it doesn't actually make any difference if you go earlier similar or "run" the incidents out of sequence because there is no "chain" or "basic". What Scientology tech is doing is simply asking you to "compare" what you are now struggling with to other similar things you have struggled with. It is the comparing that gets one to reach a conclusion ("cognition"). No "chain" is "blown" or erased. No transcendental spiritual ascent has taken place. The person simply figured something out.

...

I found your post fascinating, and true (for me)

Have had lots of "gain" in life from comparing troublesome things to other things, current situation to past situations that were either better (what was I doing right back then?) or worse (I made it through that, will make it through this...), my situation to others' experiences (thank god, I'm not the only one! I'm not alone!, or wow, I don't have it so bad after all, or this person is such a wuss and has no idea ...)

and so forth.

This is one reason why this forum is so effective in helping people heal from their cult nightmares -- we find out we weren't the only person who made those choices, who suffered through it, who saw the "outpoints" all around us and either left or put up with it, AND we can separate out the past from the present by comparing the differences and similaries of THEN and NOW.

I probably shouldn't bring this up... but... there's even something in scientology about exactly that: remember the Confusion Formula? (you know, a step for that bottom-of-the barrel Condition that no one wants to admit they're ever in)

Compare this to another place you've been...

I used that effectively on myself while still looking to scn for answer, with the meaning of "place" tweaked a bit to include not only physical locations, but state of mind, political stance, relationship environment, physical age and health conditions, etc. etc. Doing that was a life-changing experience -- but I'm sure would be labelled "squirrel" by any self-respecting Scn Ethics Officer in or out of the Church...

And when I'm confused (I know it's hard to believe, but I still get confused sometimes!) I still do that -- look to a time, place, state of mind when I wasn't confused for guidance.

OK -- I'm ready to join your Church of Comparatology (CoC) -- where do I sign?

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Originally Posted by SweetnessandLight
<snip>
"I know that you don't feel this personally, but just for all that still do:
To consider that Scientology processing, cramped, flawed, dangerous and regimented as it is, is the only way to produce this growth is laughable to my mind, based on my life experience.

No offense meant to anyone."

<snip>

Thank you so much for your post - and the elegance with which it was expressed.

I need to get over being gobsmacked by people who sincerely believe that scientology is the greatest thing that ever happened in the history of mankind ( and nothing else could possibly matter ).

A lot like a small kid jumping up and down screaming about a ( skippy ) peanut butter and ( store brand grape) jelly ( white wonder bread )sandwich being the bestest thing on earth and all anybody should ever eat !

Hopefully, the child will grow up to enjoy, maybe, filet mignon and lobster or perhaps sushi.

Or maybe like a young girl ( or guy ) or has just experienced their first ( non family ) kiss expressing estatic feelings about that being the greatest feeling on earth to older friends who are long past virginity.


Maybe the time has come for me to shut up and let each find their own way - or not - from the joys of peanut butter sandwichs that Momma packed 'em off to kindergarden with.

Thank YOU, Toadie, for the nice ack. Your peanut butter sammich analogy is very apt. And that's a very good insight that you had, about the need to get over being "gobsmacked" at other's stubborn foolishness, naivety or just lack of real world experience and wisdom. Very wise to work at doing so!

To my mind, every member here has value, has worth, because they have their own point of view, their own piece of the puzzle that this cult experience has been for so many. Exes need to be in communication with other Exes to get it all straightened out in their own minds and to heal emotionally.

Those newly out who are still pretty enthusiastic about Scientology and think that well, it's just a few bad people who are getting it wrong, or making it go wrong, to my mind, they just haven't read and learned enough about the truth about Scientology...and eventually they will, hopefully.

Those who allegedly have read the true facts about Ron and the history of his cult and still love Scientology and wanna be "IN" are deluded, in denial, or desperately fearful of independence and change...and have their own agenda. They need professional help to recover. Many people would get sucked into a cult-like group no matter what the subject was, they just have addictive personalities and can't stand on their own in life. They "need" the group mindset and lifestyle.

I think you're doing all right...no need to retire from active commentary on the board, but maybe a need to take a nice walk every now and then to blow off steam! Occasionally before posting...

My perception is that sometimes when you and others here get so riled up and mad at the things that you do get mad at, it's because you really deeply care...care about how you and your families were harmed, care about how others were harmed, and want people to wake up to the fact that COS and Scientology is a dangerous and harmful cult and a con. I think that your anger and outrage, while sometimes misplaced when directed at other posters who are still haunted by shadows of being "true believers", when newly out or even while "out" of the cult sometimes for years , is totally and completely justified and understandable...

I just worry a teensy-weensy itty-bitty bit about your blood pressure, sometimes...

....so please, go for a walk more often!

(And I promise will do the same, myself! )

 

[Auditor's Toad]

<snip>
It feels great to be empowered to feel that one can help others with certainty and yet the fact that any non-professional thinks that they can lay open another's mind and have at it because they are safe in doing so because the tech works, is irresponsible.
<snip>

That is one of the very finest statements ever made regarding that subject.

Hope somebody uses that as a siggy !

 

[anonomog]

Gadfly wrote

"So, I AM curious. In the name of honestly, has ANYONE reading this ever experienced a similar sort of thing in ANY "other practice" or religion? Heck, when I was doing OT II the line-charge went on for almost 10 minutes. It was truly mind-boggling, and it was "wonderful". I felt "cleaned out" on a mental level. I was, how should I say, ecstatic (like in flights of "religious ecstasy")."

I'm with S&L.
Crazy, wonderful moments throughout my life.
In my 20's and 30's mostly through some activity, challenging or relaxing, snorkelling, walking in the forest, dancing. A super high and connection to self, it feels like your whole body and soul is laughing.
Now in my 40's, I find moments of joy, understanding and cleansing sneak up on me when I least expect it.

I'm firmly convinced age/life experience/life stages are a big thing to do with it.

Sunday, I was sitting under our old apricot tree in the warm breeze and I felt the release of all the pretty horrible year and a feeling of oneness and rightness and joy. It was a lovely, needed gift that inspired and filled in the blanks.

I just think it is part of living. A reminder that we are more than our daily struggle for survival. Maybe some people need to be guided there and to others it happens spontaneously.

Perhaps it happens to me because I just feel mind, body, spirit are available to me as my birthright, if I want to explore them. If there is god, or higher spirit I don't see any reason for it to hide anything from us. The mysteries that remain will be revealed when I need to know them, if I ever need to know them.

I have never believed that strictly following anyone else's spiritual path and discoveries would benefit me, because I am not on anyone else's path, neither do I share anyone else's spirit. It doesn't stop me reading and thinking about other ways, I may try some out, but I always come back to my own comfortable way. It is easy, it doesn't require anything from me. Why must the spiritual side of living involve some kind of hard work or sacrifice. I just don't get that.

 

[Emma]

I think I very likely may know who he was/is IRL. I know someone who fits this to a T. Aw, crap! I probably also know who his "helper" is...someone he calls a "good friend" who is more deeply mired in the COS mind-fuck than he is, and with whom he has done "projects" over the years.

IF so, he's Ex SO, considers himself public stalled on the Bridge, been doing amends and been trying to work off freeloader debt and work his way back into COS good standing for years now...I think he's worked for OSA for a very long time. He's skilled at manipulation and the biggest and most constant liar I've ever known. I think he very likely may have a psychological disorder (or two). He's wasted about half of his adult life on Scientology, with no real signs of life improvement or recovery from it yet...unable to hold a job, living at the expense of others, and can't sustain personal relationships...only the appearance of "relationships" on-line. He is a schmoozing tech and love poem wielding bullshitter who lives most of his life on-line. That describes him perfectly, and I think OSA is using him.

Is this guy's name David or Dave?

 

[SweetnessandLight]

No, but more than one person may see themselves in this description...

Part of the sad legacy of the cult of Scientology.

 

[Panda Termint]

Is this guy's name David or Dave?

...or Bill, Bob, Joe... anything but Sue!

Emma, have you seen any footprints/fingerprints of Alex since the death announcement in September 2010? Just curious.

 

[Purple Rain]

...or Bill, Bob, Joe... anything but Sue!

Well, I don't know. He did learn to fight! One could make a good case for Sue.

 

[Emma]

...or Bill, Bob, Joe... anything but Sue!

Emma, have you seen any footprints/fingerprints of Alex since the death announcement in September 2010? Just curious.

Yes I have.

I don't believe the death story. I'm sorry and I'll feel dreadful if I'm wrong, but I believe Alex R Singh/Alex/Dave (or which ever incarnation he prefered) was/is a guy who was seen in the flesh on at least one occassion at a protest in recent years. I had many a conversation with Alex privately on Gtalk before he "disappeared" and have no reason to believe he was anything but a male. He even told me who he was in love with on ESMB

I think he was a little bit disturbed mentally & this sad story of being a woman & leaving behind a daughter is just that - a story - designed to garner sympathy.

It's sick if it's true and I strongly feel it is true (that the woman who died was just another Alex story and it is actually Alex (Dave) who is acting the part of the grieving daughter).

 

[degraded being]

I don't have enough information to know if that is true, and it is NOT for a lack of trying to answer that (whether the same or similar gains of Scn are available in "other modalities").

For example, take the phenomena known as "line charging". There were many times in session where I would answer a seemingly innocuous enough question, and BANG, it was like the floor fell out from under me. I am not exaggerating at all. Charge (energy) was exiting out of me by the bundle, and I would BURST into uncontrollable fits of laughter. It was like experiencing intense JOY, but without ANY "reason".

It happened many times to/for me. That sure NEVER happened in my many years of meditations, visualization, study of other practices, etc.

So, I AM curious. In the name of honestly, has ANYONE reading this ever experienced a similar sort of thing in ANY "other practice" or religion? Heck, when I was doing OT II the line-charge went on for almost 10 minutes. It was truly mind-boggling, and it was "wonderful". I felt "cleaned out" on a mental level. I was, how should I say, ecstatic (like in flights of "religious ecstasy").

This line-charging always was concurrent with or ended with some great "key-out"' "incredible happiness" or "exteriorization". I remember when it first happened in Life Repair, and I was amazed. It was intense and severe - in the best of possible ways. I had no idea that such a thing could, should or would happen. I was totally unprepared for such a dramatic "mental and physical phenomena". Especially at the very BEGINNING of my involvement with Scientology auditing. Of course, I wanted MORE of THAT.

I have heard people state that "all of the same gains you ever got in Scientology are available elsewhere". Okay. Just as far as this ONE THING known as "line-charging", where? Please fill me in, because after quite a bit of study, looking and examination, I have NEVER found ANY other "therapy" or "technique" designed to or able to bring about this (highly desirable) thing called "line-charging". :confused2:

Note: I am NOT familiar with every therapy or practice, and have NOT surveyed every person on Earth. So I AM "missing data".

Oh also, I wasn't the "only one". I knew friends who reported the same thing to me over the years, and I SAW people come out of session in similar states.

So, if the "tech" doesn't "work", then WHAT exactly brought about that effect "consistently" in different people?

And, where are the "other practices" that provide the same or similar "floor falling out from under me" phenomena? Over and over and over?

I am curious how many will explain this all away, excuse it as "something else", or ignore the question, and fail to provide any sort of honest and convincing answer. Please, point me to the people and practices that get a SIMILAR result. Note: I was NOT unconscious, out of it, hallucinating, dreaming or on any sort of "trance". I was THERE, in present time, in the moment, like NEVER before!

There is a thing I really HATED asbout Scientology. It was how any Scientology church member or staff member would explain away, excuse, justify or ignore the question, for example, with something about Paulette Cooper, and with anything that questioned or disputed the accepted Hubbard/Scientology party-line. They REFUSED to honestly look at ANYTHING that disrupted their fixed model of reality. It saddens me when I see it here also on ESMB.

Truth is all that matters (to me), and not whether the "facts" fit some person's preconceived notions or not. But it works both ways.

And maybe, there ARE some or many other techniques out there, readily available, and cheap, that can blast me out of my head by answering a few questions and quickly push me into a state of peace, serenity, joy and "being there without effort".

I have experienced something like that during sleep/dreaming. and it happened again last week. The way it happens is that I am dreaming and suddenly something hits the "funny" button. It is very very intense laughter, and very "deep" (every bit of my being is laughing) and it won't stop. I get woken up with it. It has happened a few times. My thinking is that my brain/mind just coodinates with the laughing section of my brain and it is uninhibited because during sleep other usual brain activites are not active enough to cause any inhibition.
Last night I had an "exteriorization" dream. I don't believe in exteriorization per the scientology cult dogma. My dream was that I was flying....more like floating around, but it was "physical", meaning I dreamed that I was floating around in the sky "in my body". It was a bit different last night than it usally is, because someone was trying to telling me (teaching me) how to integrate the good "up' feelings from flying around like that, with ordinary everyday mundane life. I hope "they" succeed in teaching me that. Not that it's really a problem. It seems interesting.

I don't really "get into" these kinds of things, or do them as a "practice". What happens, happens, and I just accept it, however last night's "lesson" got me intrigued a bit.

 

[Panda Termint]

Yes I have.

I don't believe the death story. I'm sorry and I'll feel dreadful if I'm wrong, but I believe Alex R Singh/Alex/Dave (or which ever incarnation he prefered) was/is a guy who was seen in the flesh on at least one occassion at a protest in recent years. I had many a conversation with Alex privately on Gtalk before he "disappeared" and have no reason to believe he was anything but a male. He even told me who he was in love with on ESMB

I think he was a little bit disturbed mentally & this sad story of being a woman & leaving behind a daughter is just that - a story - designed to garner sympathy.

It's sick if it's true and I strongly feel it is true (that the woman who died was just another Alex story and it is actually Alex (Dave) who is acting the part of the grieving daughter).

That's weird. The Chloe blog is quite unlike Alex's writing and seems quite genuine to me but, when it comes to the Internet, who's gonna know for sure?

I guess I'll just stick with my intuition on this one. I believe her story. It doesn't cost me anything to do so and it's definitely the better story.

 

[uniquemand]

Since I don't know who Alex Singh was, in real life, I cannot think of any way to verify if he is alive or dead (or a he).

If a real person died, and his name was Alex Singh (or used that name, here), then I'm sorry for his family, and glad he's beyond the reach of physical pain, now.

If I can't get a really good read on a person, I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

I liked chatting with Alex, and miss his contributions here, regardless of whether he died, was just a character portrayed by someone else as an op, or whatever.

I really hope that if I kick off, I've given enough information for people to be able to determine that I really was alive, I really was here, etc.

 

[degraded being]

Re: Exploitation of the process of abreaction: "aberrative" pleasure moment in a cult

Do I recommend that people do OT 2 and the Scientology Bridge?

That is an interesting question. I wouldn't, haven't in a VERY long time, and don't ever "send" people to any version of Scientology. But, if someone was curious about it, and wanted to play around with such things, I would tell them all I know, warn them totally AWAY from the organized Church, and send them looking at the FZ. But, I would also add that I have ZERO experience with the FZ.

My experiences all occured in the official Church, and as I have said before, explicity and adamently, NO PERSON should EVER get involved with THAT insidious, deceitful and manipulative group of goons. THAT is also a FACT. :confused2:

There really ARE contradictions in Scientology.

I am simply reporting what "happened". I suppose it is up to others to "make sense of it".

I would add that it was NEVER a "laugh of humor". It was as if something was going on so intensely "on the inside", that the only thing the "body" could do was "laugh". Often when the phenomena occurred, I was partially or fully "outside of myself".

I just would like to know WHERE these sorts of things can be obtained elsewhere, as others claim.

NOTE: When the line-charging happened on Life Repair, and the lower grades, and it happened MORE and the most intensely EARLY ON (besides OT II), it had absolutely nothing to do with "addressing what was said to be ancient previously inaccessible universal history (provided in your confidential materials) on route out of the labyrinth, escaping the next endless agonized trillions, on your way to becoming an Operating Thetan".

Some people limp along with their "case problems", with "handlings" and crap for decades. For some it looks like buying groceries etc..just something they do to get it done. You, Gad, seem to have had a wild time of it --"wildly ecstatic", that is.
Different strokes for different folks. It might be not just a case what scientology does to you....etc.