How exactly do bad cults end?

[oneonewasaracecar]

The Krishnas are still going;

http://iskcon.org/

When I was in London, I used to visit the vegetarian restaurant which they ran at their headquarters in Soho Square. I don't know if it's still going, but it was an amazing place.
I used to feel a sense of peace envelop me when I went down (it was in the basement) to eat there; they call the food "prasadam" in accordance with Hindu tradition.

I don't know if it's still going but I hope it is; it was amongst my favourite restaurants anywhere, if not my favourite.

There is also a restaurant and cinema in Sydney called Govinda's. You can lie on lounges and watch movies. It's one of my favourites.

Still, a few tax exempt restaurants does not mean the movement is still alive.

 

[Lermanet_com]

1) They shred documents


2) And do the same to people,

In order to make evidence of manslaughter and felonies disappear...

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Not sure if the Moonies are the best example of a cult "fading away".

The Moon cult is a multi-billion dollar conglomerate and contains hundreds of front groups:
https://freedomofmind.com//Info/infoDet.php?id=650

It's true that Rev. Moon dropped his body a couple years back, but he's probably just joined LRH on Target Two for some advanced research.

LOLOL!

Moonies, like Scientologists, have some serious dwindling-spiral membership issues!

​

STRUGGLING WITH MEMBERSHIPS

No one knows how many Unificationists there are worldwide. In the U.S., estimates range from 15,000 to 25,000. But the numbers have dropped since the 1970s, in part because many "blessed" children have left the fold. Jason Agress left when he was 14, after he began dating a girl over his parents' objections.

"Everything was a system of control," he says. "That's what it seemed to me like. They were kind of breeding us to be a certain way. And if you weren't that way, there was something wrong with you."

D.F. Spratt agrees. She asked that her full name not be used because she worries the stigma of being once associated with the church could hurt her career. Spratt says she used to have nightmares about being married in a mass blessing to someone she didn't know. The pressure of being blessed, and so different from her peers, drove her away — though with some trepidation.

"Back then, if you left the church, you fell off the face of the earth," she says. "It's the worst thing you could do. One person told us at Sunday school once that blessed children who fall out of the church go to a box underneath of hell."

​

That "box underneath of hell" sounds lovely!

I always appreciate it when old-school tech (like the "SP Hole" and "Chain Lockers") are upgraded with aesthetics and geometry.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Moonies, like Scientologists, have some serious dwindling-spiral membership issues..."

​

This must be a mistake. I checked with Karin Pouw Myung at the Unification Church who assured me they've got 45 million members and they're the fastest expanding religion in this sector of the universe.
​

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

​

This must be a mistake. I checked with Karin Pouw Myung at the Unification Church who assured me they've got 45 million members and they're the fastest expanding religion in this sector of the universe.
​

I must apologize for my previous posts denigrating the expanding majesty of the Unification Church. I even got further confirmation from their new Korean-American spokesman, Tommy Davis Daewoo.

Mr. Daewoo, is it true that the Unification Church is shrinking
badly because its members have been bullshitted & brainwashed?

FUCK NO!
Do I look bullshit to you?

​

 

[Type4_PTS]

I must apologize for my previous posts denigrating the expanding majesty of the Unification Church. I even got further confirmation from their new Korean-American spokesman, Tommy Davis Daewoo.

Mr. Daewoo, is it true that the Unification Church is shrinking
badly because its members have been bullshitted & brainwashed?

FUCK NO!
Do I look bullshit to you?

​

Reminds me of THIS picture:

 

[ILove2Lurk]

. . .
​

View attachment 8322

:wink2:
​

 

[Francois Tremblay]

Seems to me that what does most cults in is the death of the leader. Once they get past that hurdle, they can continue pretty much indefinitely, and eventually peter out after they are no longer consonant with the culture and aren't able to brainwash enough children to keep it going. Look at the major cults of the 19th century: Christian Scientists, Mormons, JWs, they all still exist. And the weird, angry little Jewish fellow still has a pretty big worship going even though he didn't have nearly as much of a PR machine as Ol' Tubbard. But then again, they didn't have the Internet back then...

Nope, I'm afraid we're stuck with Scientology forever. Even if the organization goes belly-up after a few decades, the indies will keep the fires going. There is no end game. All we can hope for is to stop the criminal cartel of Lil' Misscrappy.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

There is also a restaurant and cinema in Sydney called Govinda's. You can lie on lounges and watch movies. It's one of my favourites.

Still, a few tax exempt restaurants does not mean the movement is still alive.

Yep, Govinda's is the name of the London one too.

I think the heyday of the movement in the UK was when George Harrison was alive, as he was a supporter and gave the Krishnas not only a lot of free publicity, but money as well. There have been other famous followers since (like Polly Styrene, the lead singer of the punk band X-Ray Spex), but none with the same high profile.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Seems to me that what does most cults in is the death of the leader. Once they get past that hurdle, they can continue pretty much indefinitely, and eventually peter out after they are no longer consonant with the culture and aren't able to brainwash enough children to keep it going. Look at the major cults of the 19th century: Christian Scientists, Mormons, JWs, they all still exist. And the weird, angry little Jewish fellow still has a pretty big worship going even though he didn't have nearly as much of a PR machine as Ol' Tubbard. But then again, they didn't have the Internet back then...

Nope, I'm afraid we're stuck with Scientology forever. Even if the organization goes belly-up after a few decades, the indies will keep the fires going. There is no end game. All we can hope for is to stop the criminal cartel of Lil' Misscrappy.

In my experience, even with the "indies" things change fast once you no longer have the cult machinery and its constant demands for money, agreement, obedience and admiration. People start asking questions about what works and what doesn't, some stop calling themselves Scientologists (knowing what bad PR value attaches to the name because of the official organisation), etc.

And of course they have to operate in a free market, with a lot of competition. So I wouldn't worry too much about the "indie scene;" they, and the people who are drawn to them, can mostly take care of themselves.

 

[Random guy]

In my experience, even with the "indies" things change fast once you no longer have the cult machinery and its constant demands for money, agreement, obedience and admiration. People start asking questions about what works and what doesn't, some stop calling themselves Scientologists

When the mother cul goes, the whole thing goes. The indies may linger on for a bit, but without the institutionalized mind control, they too will wake up and the cult fade away like a malignant ghost into history.

 

[Churchill]

I must apologize for my previous posts denigrating the expanding majesty of the Unification Church. I even got further confirmation from their new Korean-American spokesman, Tommy Davis Daewoo.

Mr. Daewoo, is it true that the Unification Church is shrinking
badly because its members have been bullshitted & brainwashed?

FUCK NO!
Do I look bullshit to you?

​

Nominated for the all time funniest, I nearly shit my pants, post on ESMB!

 

[eldritch cuckoo]

think underground bunkers

A-hem!

http://tonyortega.org/

Enjoy the show. . .

Can anyone even imagine having people around the globe hating you and praying for your destruction or imprisonment?

I still have no "WTF"... er, I think... so... how could I know?

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Birdie, do you think Cruise, Travolta, Cartwright, et al are eventually going to expect the fruits of their time and donations to show? Maybe these guys really are as unaware as a box of rocks and can continue to be hoodwinked indefinitely. I don't know. If not, though, the celebs alone could take this thing down and big. Big bang.

with people who are big on their own some way who study the subject they will keep their peace as a matter of honor and propriety if they leave. william burroughs and paul haggi are notable exceptions to this rule

if tom cruise were to walk away and voice objection to some of the policies and practices it might or might not be truly huge. less so with travolta

scientology is unique and unprecedented. it's true center is the auditing and training and, though you are not well inclined to concur, i am among many who are well convinced these have essential virtue and value

i don't know what the future holds. it appears CoS is in a crisis by reason of no longer being able to attract new students as it did back in the day. i would say the true indication that it is in a severe crisis is if you see a CLV church fold

perhaps a story from the book of act is pertinent. two thousand years ago a controversial rabbi was put to death for heresy. the religious authorities were then concerned that his followers had a... well, "a cult" that was attacting new members. they grabbed one, stephen, now known as saint stephen, and questioned him and then conerred about what to do with him. one bright light on the council spoke up saying that odd cults had come before and then just faded away and concluded saying "if this is not of god then we don't need to do anything at all to stop it, but if it is of god we can't stop it"

back in the day many people, myself included got a strong impression that their lives before entering scientology appeared to lead up to it; that classic sense of presence and manifestation of a spiritual calling

this suggests perhaps this new concept of spiritual development may be of god...

OTOH...

in a letter to the corinthians paul says those attempt a human path to salvation will be sent strong delusion...

this too is suggested by experience...

 

[Commander Birdsong]

(I know, right?)

But actually....

These people are the authorities on knowing-how-to-know. They are verrrrrrrrry perceptive!

SCN CELEBRITY'S CHILD
Hey, can I go to the movies today
with my friends? Their parents are
driving them and they can pick me up!

SCN CELEBRITY PARENT (Cruise, Travolta, Cartright)
Wait. Are they Scientologists?

SCN CELEBRITY'S CHILD
Yes, the mom and dad both made it safely
thru the wall of fire and are IAS patrons.
I'll call them now to pick me up....

SCN CELEBRITY PARENT (Cruise, Travolta, Cartright)
Not so fast! What movie is it?

SCN CELEBRITY'S CHILD
It's an "action" movie which is really like
totally uptone. Action is tone 20, ya know!
Please, can I go, I'm going to be late!

SCN CELEBRITY PARENT (Cruise, Travolta, Cartright)
Action is a generality. I need to know the name
of the movie so I can contemplate optimum survival.

SCN CELEBRITY'S CHILD
It's, um...."We Come Back--Return to Planet
of the Apes, Part VIII"

SCN CELEBRITY PARENT (Cruise, Travolta, Cartright)
I'll have to think about that a moment........
(now thinking quietly to themselves)
Hmmmmm....the "planet" part sounds good. Ron used
the word "planet" a lot. But, I am picking up something
else. It's that word "Apes". That could possibly restimulate
the Helatrobus Gorilla Goal Implants from 319 trillion years ago.
(now answers aloud)
Sure, you can go. But first let's send the data into your folder
and make sure you have C/S Okay to see that movie.​

FLUNK!!!

action is tone 22...

go find your misunderstood weird...

 

[Claire Swazey]

In my experience, even with the "indies" things change fast once you no longer have the cult machinery and its constant demands for money, agreement, obedience and admiration. People start asking questions about what works and what doesn't, some stop calling themselves Scientologists (knowing what bad PR value attaches to the name because of the official organisation), etc.

And of course they have to operate in a free market, with a lot of competition. So I wouldn't worry too much about the "indie scene;" they, and the people who are drawn to them, can mostly take care of themselves.

Yah. For one thing, indies aren't centralized. They have no institutional mechanism for enforced disconnection, or high prices or staff contracts. No big whoop.

But something else occurs to me: how much of FZ or Indie milieu and venues are a sort of defiant meme? Like if CofS was totally gone, would some non CofS Scn'ists change their minds?

Maybe few or none, but it's an interesting thought, if only to yours truly.

 

[Elronius of Marcabia]

deleted

 

[Rmack]

An older brother of mine was in a cult that died out.

It was 'Faith of our Fathers' church in the South Bay area of greater L.A.(they moved around a lot, especially towards the end). They were not your usual Christian Church. Their main practice was 'speaking in tongues' in groups. The whole group together would lay around (for some reason, you couldn't just be sitting in a chair) and babel. Seriously. The vast majority just repeated the same syllable or three over and over with a 'Jesus! thrown in every now and again, or something like that. It was down right eerie to hear when hundreds of them did it together.

And their preachers..... After the opening group tongues session and before the last, they ranted and raved so crazily that it was hard for the uninitiated to even understand them. Not that it really mattered that you understood, I guess.

This cult held very strong controls on it's members lives for most of it's history. Giving ten percent of your income before taxes was mandatory (I suppose it could be worse, hehe). More, if you're really filled with the 'Spirit', lol. It didn't allow them to watch TV, go to movies, read any other books except school books and the Bible, etc. They relaxed some of this towards the end, probably hastening the waking up of the members.

Anyway, this group slowly shrank. The first guy who sort of took over from the older Pastor, who first started evangelizing hippies in the sixties that died in a small plane crash, wound up shooting himself. And then 'Jay' took over. I hear he's lost a lot of weight, but at the time I knew him, he as a very fat hippie type who occupied the top spot.

My brother was sort of in the inner circle. He was married to this Jay guy's wife's sister. They did Christmas together, and such.

I wasn't around for the flame-out, but I suspect it dissolved for the same reason all small cults are dying out; Satan is consolidating....Just kidding! sort of. No, what I mean is, greater availability of knowledge due to the internet. You see, what these guys did is specifically and clearly forbidden in the Bible that they claimed to follow completely and exclusively. I suspect that the members started finding this out. And, back in the day, I showed up at their Bible studies and pointed this out. Sure, it went over like a turd in the punchbowl at first, but it planted seeds.

There's lots more to the story, but what is pertinent to this thread is; the head guy wound up rich with real estate holdings, and my brother had a nervous breakdown and wound up a burned out shell of his former self. He was a thriving lawyer, and got disbarred. His fellow cultist wife, the sister of the former leaders wife, left him and he wound up destitute. He had a 'nervous breakdown'. It was horrible to see. His teeth had rotted away from neglect, he had this permanent deer-in-the-headlights look, etc. Very disturbing.

So, I wouldn't be too surprised if DarthMunchkin winds up set for life somewhere. And even less surprised if many of his top cronies wind up...what was the clam term? 'Caved in' I think.

Not all, of course. The smart ones will do OK. It's the true believers who will really suffer from the mental ambivalence of their situation.

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

In my experience, even with the "indies" things change fast once you no longer have the cult machinery and its constant demands for money, agreement, obedience and admiration. People start asking questions about what works and what doesn't, some stop calling themselves Scientologists (knowing what bad PR value attaches to the name because of the official organisation), etc.

And of course they have to operate in a free market, with a lot of competition. So I wouldn't worry too much about the "indie scene;" they, and the people who are drawn to them, can mostly take care of themselves.

Exactly.

Anyone else here notice that none of the indies are all old? Possiblyhelpful advice is old, Old Auditor was old.

You just don't have 20 year olds signing up for indie auditing. A lot of the indies have even left the indie field. There are of course those whom you will have to pry the cans from their cold dead hands, but if young people aren't interested the indie field will literally die off in 20 years.

When the mother cul goes, the whole thing goes. The indies may linger on for a bit, but without the institutionalized mind control, they too will wake up and the cult fade away like a malignant ghost into history.

Most of them. The thing many indies don't realise is that they are under the protection of the Scientology organization.

Once Scientology falls the following things can happen without fear
1) Publishing of ALL dox on a single online source.
2) Academics can read about this and comment on these dox.
3) Everyone will be able to speak out without fear.
4) Historians will be able to get government funding to do oral histories of exes.
5) These things can be reported on objectively and easily by the press (although this is still possible now).
6) The entire space opera of Scientology can be easily documented.

 

[DeeAnna]

Sorry, but my acronym translator app is down.

"i don't know what the future holds. it appears CoS is in a crisis by reason of no longer being able to attract new students as it did back in the day. i would say the true indication that it is in a severe crisis is if you see a CLV church fold."

What is a CLV church?