How long does auditing take?

[Voltaire's Child]

Sessions vary. I've seen people spend the whole day in session. I've seen it be part of the day.

Plus 12.5 hours is 12.5 hours so if you use half an hour at first, then yes, you have 12 hours left. But they'd try to get you to buy more cuz that's what they DO.

If a person is "blown out" or otherwise "exterior"- he doesn't go back into session that day.

If he is tired, he goes home to sleep. Hungry? They get him to eat something. If he doesn't "metab" on the cans, no go.

if he's pulled to do review auditing or get ethics, that will delay things.

 

[Jachs]

What is the new added bits in New Era Diane-tics?

Procedure?

EP?

 

[Pierrot]

Perhaps someone who has audited NED can add to, or correct if necessary, the below statement.

With old Standard Dianetics, when an EP occurred, it was routine for the "postulate" to "come off." Usually but not always this was verbalized. If it wasn't verbalized, the pc could say something at the Examiner, or to the auditor at the beginning of the next day's session.

From my observation, this was not a problem.

The instructions in NED, as I recall, are to ask for the "postulate" if none is originated by the pc. However, by that time the person would have already expressed the full EP, and would be extroverted and coming "out of session." So, asking "Did you make a postulate at the time of incident" would be asked of someone no longer in session, and would be little more than THINK-level talk.

That's my observation from only having read the NED materials, and having spent a fair amount of time comparing the old Dianetic HCOBs with the revised (butchered really) NED versions of those HCOBs.

(snip)

Hi Veda,

yes, you're correct, in Std Dianetics or even in Book One Dn when the incident is erased (= you cannot squeeze more juice out of it whatever you do, charge gone, running more of it would be like beating a dead horse, etc) the pc would be usually cheerfful and say things which could sometimes be (like) postulates. Sort of expressing new views upon life.

In NED when you hit that point on a chain usually the pc actually voices the postulate. It's funny sometimes the person spits out the postulate, continues to talk a bit about the incident, then an FN starts, then the person realises how that idea/postulate was haunting him in life, getting into unwanted situations, whatever, and has a big laugh.

So - postulate=erasure - is a datum on NED. And thus *if* the postulate was not voiced by the pc while every other point of the Dn EP can be observed as "in" - one asks the pc if a postulate was made, etc, per the intructions. Usually the FN widens, the indicators improve, the person has a good laugh about it. Thus it's not "think-think" - if it was and the person introverted, indicators diminishing, FN stopped, or so, I'd suspect there was a sloppy job reducing/erasing beforehand or some other out-ness.

After stating that Life is basically a Static the Axiom 2 states "THE STATIC IS CAPABLE OF CONSIDERATIONS, POSTULATES, AND OPINIONS". Digging the postulates out of the confusions which are the traumatic incidents, engrams, restores being's own causativeness over his own universe - that much closer to a native state. Finally being cause over one's postulates and having no unknown postulates acting from some hidden "unconscious mind" gives a good release, a happy and well human being. That much closer to Clear.

On the rest of your post, regarding Clear: those opinions you write there are interesting and I'm not saying they're not relevant.

However - from the Tech perspective the subject of Clear became important again in '78. Before NOTs there was a handling regarding the State of Clear after OTIII, on Original OT Levels, it was part of CSing concern to sort out a few things on OT IV, per Class VIII instructions etc. Up till '78 there was a possible Dianetic handling on OTIII, running engrams. You might have noticed there is a handling about Clear on NOTs also, in the beginning steps.

So from the historical perspective there are several ways Dianetics has been run - Book One, Standard Dn, Dn on OTIII, NED, NED for OTs, and each one had Hubbard statements about Clear.

Thus it's important to understand that Clear is Clear (if one is interested in studying the whole subject, of course) Otherwise the whole exercise called OT levels has little sense, one cannot see the huge difference between OTIII and NOTs, then one can assert that NOTs is junk, there are no Clears, no OTs, and then also go into very special solutions for OTVIII running them back on Objectives, etc.

So - '78 just like '68 are years of important shift points in Tech and in Scn in general, actually.

 

[Veda]

Thanks for the feedback on running NED, in which, as I mentioned, I have no experience. I suspect that once a pc is familiar with the NED patter&routine, that he anticipates that voicing the postulate is expected and usually does so.

I'm familiar with the material relating to OT 3, old OT4, and NOTs that you touched upon.

As far as "Clear is Clear," David Mayo would not agree with you.

The comment that "'78 just like '68 are years of important shift points in Tech..." is interesting. Hubbard had major upsets and failures just prior to both shifts. To the first, in '66/'67, he responded by becoming "the Commodore," to the second, in '77, he responded by regressing back to 1950 and becoming preoccupied with Dianetics and Dianetic Clears, and regressing further to the 1940s with a return to writing "pulp" Science Fiction - this, while the promised "upper OT levels" remained in limbo. Just who the real "Commodore" (from the past) was is any one's guess.

 

[Infinite]

From what Roger says, and a lot of things other people have said earlier, I definitely get the impression that auditing is at least as much of an art as a science. Being audited, for that matter, would also appear to be something of a learned skill.

Which is fine, and to be expected for any kind of therapy, I would say. Whatever he may or may not have actually had to offer in the way of 'workable tech', it was absurd of Hubbard to pretend to have a body of procedures that would be 100% effective if applied with algorithmic exactness. That ridiculous pretense is surely one of the purely bad and evil aspects of Hubbard's con game, because it just puts all the blame for anything short of perfection on the participants.

But I can make this curious personal observation. The more concrete and literal details I hear about Scientology practice, the less I believe in Hubbard's grandiose claims for it — but the more I'm willing to believe that there might be some stuff of some value in it. For my own part I'm afraid I remain doubtful that there's enough there to constitute a way of life or a religion, but I guess by now I consider it quite possible that there might be some worthwhile psychological tricks and techniques, that somebody who held L. Ron Hubbard in no kind of awe whatever could perhaps disentangle and develop into a useful practice.

Valium has been a hugely successful product, and all it really does is help nervous people relax a little. Alcohol has been far more popular still, though its effects are simple and the beneficial ones are modest. Even something that achieves rather less than those drugs would be a thing well worth having, if it didn't wreck your liver — or drain your savings and turn you into a brainwashed culty.

My own expectation would certainly be that none of Hubbard's voodoo psychophysics would survive as the theoretical underpinning for whatever effective post-Scientology practices might emerge. I'd expect that the whole past-life hypothesis could be jettisoned, for instance. I'd see those notions being replaced, not necessarily with my off-the-cuff 'story instinct' hypothesis, but probably with something comparably banal and down-to-earth.

Scientology is not a "therapy" - it is one long indoctrination process into a cult. It is designed to remove as much cash and life-force from each and every person it encounters as quickly as possible. Dianetics and "auditing" was a fraud from the moment L Ron Hubbard told people he used it to cure war injuries.

Some suggest L Ron Hubbard had good intentions when he wrote Dianetics. But remember this: he was on the run from the authorities for his "Scientists of the World" scam, he was shacked up with Parson's ex and on the receiving end of a Court action against him. With a muddled head full of his affirmations, devil worshipping, war experiences, and shambolic early life he sat down and plagiarised every author he could find to cobble together a few thousands words for the money. B I N G O - the thing took off. Every piece of "Scripture" written since then has only been added to fine tune what has become one of the Crimes Of The Century. For the last 60 years, Scientology has been selling non-existent abilities by sucking you into its vortex and using, inter alia, the application of regular hypnotic-like states to enhance the extraction of your cash

Hubbard tried to get some sort of scientific recognition for his cobbled-together gobbledeegook and there was even a test carried out during the 1950s. Quickly, the academics took one look at Dianetics and called it bullshit. In fact, such was the resulting concern about Dianetics, L Ron Hubbard was left with little option but to vilify the critics and dive for religious cloaking - the tax breaks weren't too bad either.

So, how long does "auditing" take - how much money have you got and how soon do you want your "bank" "cleared"?

 

[Jachs]

Id agree Diane-tics was a deception of hype,that couldn't deliver what it promised, but it was beneficial to some. Remove all Rons astounding sex, indifferent gore , grandeur, and sweeping generalities and for a percentage it did something.

I see it as a form of sensationalized Abreaction therapy with the Hypnotists hidden command spin.

 

[uniquemand]

Bingo. So, don't do Scientology.

 

[Pierrot]

Thanks for the feedback on running NED, in which, as I mentioned, I have no experience. I suspect that once a pc is familiar with the NED patter&routine, that he anticipates that voicing the postulate is expected and usually does so.

You're welcome.

On the pc doing what is expected from him - I wouldn't say so (what you suspect above) -

I did run processes on pcs who were "indoctrinated" on and who were not. (Indoctrinated here means - processes well explained, grooved in, pc having no unanswered questions on the processes, how/why it worked, etc) - the cognition occurred when properly run in both instances invariably, by the book.

However here we're talking about Dianetics, thus about engram running. And when asked to locate a moment when some hot item occurred - sooner or later the person is "sucked into" some unconsciousness by the incident run. While running it the person obeys to the content of the incident - thus would seldom execute something else, like looking for a postulate because in the texts he's supposed to. (Unless "look up for the postulate" was an engrammic command, lol) Even executing the auditing commands. sometimes requires repeating etc when the person is dopey, etc. as you very well know.

No - after the person is out of the maze, the effort or emotion is reduced then dissipated, and at some point - while still a tiny bit inside the incident - the person voices some thought, which often happens to be the postulate. Which is like a "post-it" on top of which the heavy charge is stuck.

I'm familiar with the material relating to OT 3, old OT4, and NOTs that you touched upon.

As far as "Clear is Clear," David Mayo would not agree with you.

Right.

Well, I had trouble with David Mayo's statement (your quote in the earlier post) when I read it in the 80's or so. It doesn't make sense, from the technical point of view. From the marketing/political point of view, why not, but I have little interest in politics ;-)

If I accepted that idea of "harmonics of Clear", and dug into it, apply logics, dissecting it completely, then sooner or later I'd have to negate NOTs and OT levels. Continuing that I'd have to negate my earlier studies into metaphysics and psychology, and then would end up myself saying "I don't exist" which would be completely against my personal certainties I had as a child, wayyyy before any first contact with Scn and all its madness.

Joking apart - the idea of "harmonics of Clear" would invariably force an Auditor to evaluate or invalidate his Pc at some point. And that would be against Standard Tech - which is the least invasive, the softer approach in the field of the mind, therapy and personal enhancement at this moment on this planet. What a problem !

The comment that "'78 just like '68 are years of important shift points in Tech..." is interesting. Hubbard had major upsets and failures just prior to both shifts. To the first, in '66/'67, he responded by becoming "the Commodore," to the second, in '77, he responded by regressing back to 1950 and becoming preoccupied with Dianetics and Dianetic Clears, and regressing further to the 1940s with a return to writing "pulp" Science Fiction - this, while the promised "upper OT levels" remained in limbo. Just who the real "Commodore" (from the past) was is any one's guess.

Yes, you got it right. I always found interesting to apply the teachings of Great Thinkers (especially that have followers) on those teachers and the subject taught. Here, for instance, it's interesting to analyse the prior confusions before every major self-determined change Hubbard or "Scientology" performed.

 

[Student of Trinity]

When I speak of extracting something worthwhile from Scientology, what I have in mind is a pretty radical extraction. It appears to me that 'the tech' probably does 'work' in one respect: a lot of people frequently attain some sort of possibly calm euphoria after auditing. Sometimes, it seems, after only a few minutes of auditing.

I'm not assuming that there is any more to it at all than just that. I can't say I have any proof either way, but for myself I don't suppose that 'blowing charge' in auditing is really a spiritual advance toward any higher state. All I'm thinking is that the 'auditing high' itself, without any of its alleged deeper significance, might serve as a mild recreational or psychotherapeutic drug.

And that might be worth having, if its delivery could be streamlined and simplified to the point where it was easy to obtain — maybe even from automated systems like Paul's. Stress and anxiety are bad things. If there were an easy way that a lot of people could relieve them a bit, even quite temporarily, that would be good.

In other words, I happen to doubt that Scientology is anything like a new discovery of fire, as Hubbard claimed. But it might be like a new discovery of beer.

 

[uniquemand]

More like a plagiarism of Freud.

 

[koki]

I was, to post answer to response here,but then I thought ....oh wtf,I will make - lesson # 2 for ...
so just go on posts and look at that,and all of your questions will be answered.
Big hello from LRHs Bulgraviya.

 

[Veda]

You're welcome.

On the pc doing what is expected from him - I wouldn't say so (what you suspect above) -

I did run processes on pcs who were "indoctrinated" on and who were not. (Indoctrinated here means - processes well explained, grooved in, pc having no unanswered questions on the processes, how/why it worked, etc) - the cognition occurred when properly run in both instances invariably, by the book.

-snip-

Joking apart - the idea of "harmonics of Clear" would invariably force an Auditor to evaluate or invalidate his Pc at some point. And that would be against Standard Tech - which is the least invasive, the softer approach in the field of the mind, therapy and personal enhancement at this moment on this planet. What a problem !



-snip-

Obviously, I've never run NED on an "un-indoctrinated" pc or on any pc, but I have audited people who were "un-indoctrinated," and certain predictable things do occur. I've had auditing "work" on people who never heard of auditing in the Dianetic or Scientology sense.

If, in 1950, Hubbard had sold Clearing (verb), instead or Clear (noun), and told people they could become Clear-er and Clear-er and Clear-er, and continued to write and talk along those lines, then that would have been the "reality" for Dianeticists and Scientologists. In fact, if you look closely, the double-talking Hubbard did day that, while also saying "Clear is Clear," etc.

The Scientologists I encountered in the late 1970s were - with a few exceptions - very suggestible and, if Hubbard had said they were milkshakes, would have been milkshakes.

Granted, I was that way, to some extent, before the late 1970s, also, but I was IN it then, and I couldn't see it. After stepping away for a few years, and then going back, after the latest wave of "LRH breakthroughs," I could see it, because, by luck, or by nature, I wasn't IN it anymore. The trance was broken.

I can only imagine what one of the late 1970s happy LRH milkshake people would have been like as a pc. Probably very predictable and easily pleased.

After I started auditing again, I usually audited people who were not eager LRH milkshake types, or, in some instances, when auditing someone in that condition, included an additional step, which helped him or her to grow beyond any LRH milkshake tendencies.

Slightly related to this conversation and to this thread is this, from the former head of the California Association of Dianetic Auditors, and founder of the (Fair Gamed into extinction) Reform Church of Scientology, Lawrence West. The CofS attempted to grab the CADA by infiltrating it, and squashed the "Reform Church" with Hubbard's "ruin utterly" lawsuit tech. Some years later, West wrote about Dianetics, auditing, and hypnotism:

http://www.lermanet.com/exit/hubbard-the-hypnotist8.htm

 

[uniquemand]

Very good link, Veda.

The cartoon image of people who are hypnotized being unaware of their environment or complete slaves is how I used to think of hypnosis. With the broader, full definition of hypnosis, I can see Dianetics as a form of hypnosis: in fact, I could see any ritualized communication as trance-inducing.

People have an opposition to being told they are in a trance, probably because they are looking at the popular definition, meaning unaware and controlled remotely.

It's quite true that modern persons regularly induce trance-states on themselves through use of music, television, and other media whose whole purpose is to change your state of mind and emotions (and make you buy Cialis!), and so can enter trance states more easily and quickly. The question of whether or not this is a good thing is an open question. I think as long as you are aware of the fact that you are entering a trance, and can control whether you remain in that trance or not, it's no major threat. It's when you're unaware of it (like when you're being told "Dianetics is not hypnosis") that you are vulnerable, or more vulnerable, to implanted suggestions of all sorts (whether in the session or afterwards).

 

[Challenge]

Koki, a trained auditor is supposed to run stuff that helps the pc. If the pc discharges bad energy connected to unpleasant (real) times, he will feel better to the extent that he gets rid of this bad energy. If nothing is happening in the session (no bad energy coming off) the auditor is supposed to notice and do something about it.

It is not the case that the pc just yaps on and on about some imaginary incident that isn't doing him any good to talk about. At least, it is when the auditor knows what he is doing.

Paul

What you say is certainly true, but it doesn't take into consideration the "quotas' (stats) for the auditors.
In Asho's HGC, I have seen Staff auditors let the PC yap on as long as he wants, so that the Auditor can get "up-statistics" for the day.
YMMV

challenge

 

[Lermanet_com]

Until all the money in your bank is gone

Then you are cleared!

Rx for current believers, hang onto your wallet and run like hell!


Definition of SP: Anyone whose countenance interferes with the continued extraction of money from rubes...

 

[ILove2Lurk]

Does anyone know if a copy of the infamous "Harmonics of Clear" HCOB (or BTB?) ghostwritten by Mayo has ever made it onto the Internet?

I vaguely remember seeing it pass through the org back in the day.

Sure would like to read it after browsing through this thread.

ILove2Lurk

 

[bts2free]

Auditing takes about this long...

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Does anyone know if a copy of the infamous "Harmonics of Clear" HCOB (or BTB?) ghostwritten by Mayo has ever made it onto the Internet?

I vaguely remember seeing it pass through the org back in the day.

Sure would like to read it after browsing through this thread.

ILove2Lurk

Google is your friend.

http://freezone-tech.info/blog/2010/01/16/clear-by-david-mayo-usa/


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Huh; okay. Good to know.

I don't want to keep pestering you about exactly how NED differed from original Dianetics, ...

I agree with Panda, Paul's given good answers to your questions.


Mark A. Baker

 

[ILove2Lurk]

Thank you for the link, Mark. I've read that one before.

Was looking for the original HCOB he's telling the story about in that article.

Never been able to locate it with google.

ILove2lurk