How we realized we were in a cult

[Sindy]

Ya know, there were quite a few times/periods where I really felt that I was in a cult but thought it was a local thing. (Oy!) I thought that if I could just get "closer to source" and up to the higher orgs, then I could be with the sane people.

Oh I am c-r-i-n-g-i-n-g right now that I thought that! If I had known that Int Management/COB were the craziest mother fuckers of them all, I would have bolted much sooner. MUCH sooner.

 

[lost]

Ya know, there were quite a few times/periods where I really felt that I was in a cult but thought it was a local thing. (Oy!) I thought that if I could just get "closer to source" and up to the higher orgs, then I could be with the sane people.

Oh I am c-r-i-n-g-i-n-g right now that I thought that! If I had known that Int Management/COB were the craziest mother fuckers of them all, I would have bolted much sooner. MUCH sooner.

That was some fucked up thinking you were doing Miss Sindy. I think i have done the same thing on things outside of the cult.

 

[jojo]

I'm in a minority in that I never really had a bad experience in Scn until
the reason I left.

I had major wins on FPRD self elected. Expressed some doubt re clear.
Had already been declared clear re DSCI.

So down to St Hill to do CCRD. Eventually declared not clear. I protested
and was then declared clear. Possibly the last acked natural clear in 1991.
This whole cycle was traumatic.

It was clear to me that I could never again recieve auditing in CO$ that was
for my benefit. I never returned.

8 years later I got a computer and searched Scn. I was horrified!

Became a critic. Very soon afterwards I started to promote Scn tech, which I still do.

I'm also in the minority.

I always KNEW it was a cult. When I walked in the door of the L.A. Org and got the creeps from the wide-eyed receptionist to the overly aggressive registrar. I knew these were a bunch of crazies. I joined because my best friend was involved and wanted to be close to her. I also wanted to be part of the quasi celebrity group that was the basis of Celebrity Center back in the 70's. Right -- I didn't stay at LA Org but went to CC the next day.

People seemed more normal there but I still knew in the back of my mind that things were very off. I was always connected to the outside world and heard all the criticism and cult accusations. I just didn't care. These were the people I wanted to be around.

There were many things I enjoyed about the tech but I was never as gung ho and rah rah rah about it as so many people were.

When I was a newbie me and my friends used to have so much fun joking about LRH and Scientology. We were hilarious and it made it ok to be a part of something that was being criticized by the rest of the world.

When the HCOB "Jokers and Degraders" came out that's when everything changed. The tone changed to dead seriousness. No longer were people willing to laugh at themselves. People spoke in hushed tones and if there were problems with supervisors, the tech, ethics, etc. people were afraid to speak out.

I knew a woman who had been on the RPF who told me some of the horrors that she had gone through. She made me promise never to repeat what she had told me. I never did. However, I could not understand why she remained a Scientologist. Why she was willing to pay her "freeloader debt" and continue in the cult. For that matter why did I remain? Because nothing happened to me? Because that sort of thing could only happen to a sea org member not public.

When I saw things like that I would become inactive for awhile but eventually would go back. I missed my friends and heard stories that staff were being treated so much better... etc.

Like you, Terril, I was given the Clear carrot too. I was Clear then not Clear then Clear then not Clear. What a crock!

It took me 30 years before I actively made the decision to quit and never go back. I knew it was a cult and LRH was a total fraud. There was no reason for me to be a part of it again.

 

[Techless]

Udarnik said the above in reference to getting people out of the cult. He asserts people should reject the tech while still in. I don't think that is entirely possible and I thought this should be its own thread subject. I'm not sure the title of this thread is totally perfect, but it will do. How did we all go about realizing that things were not quite right around us and how did that lead to where we are now?

It's my opinion that few who are now actively involved with Cof$ will realize all of a sudden that the tech is BS, LRH is a con man, Dwarf Midget is Satan (LOL) and they need to get the hell out right now. I think it's usually a bit more gradual. My own path went something as follows and I am curious if anyone would contribute how their's was similar or different:

(1) realize that something is wrong with Cof$ management and its current programs;
(2) protest against this;
(3) find out your protests are being met with stony silence or worse attacks against you, ethics interviews, justice, etc.;
(4) start to break out of the cult think and realize something is REALLY wrong;
(5) distance yourself from the whole thing;
(6) start seeing more outnesses and illogicality in the operation;
(7) if not done already, start investigating on other channels such as the internet to see if there is other data to substantiate or explain the outnesses you spotted;
(8) be shocked and awed by the wealth of data you find outside the Cof$ about its abuses, things you never ever suspected were going on;
(9) realize that you have been being lied to a lot more than you ever imagined was possible;
(10) question the very integrity of the technology that you thought was going to set you free forever;
(11) question the integrity of the source of this technology;
(12) stop being a True Believer;
(13) realize with shock that you were actually in a cult;
(14) finally break free entirely from the cult mindset entirely.

Thoughts?

Very, VERY similar to my experience! But I would've written it with a lot more caustic 'explicatives'!

You are much more graceful than I for doing so.

Thx

 

[guanoloco]

Ya know, there were quite a few times/periods where I really felt that I was in a cult but thought it was a local thing. (Oy!) I thought that if I could just get "closer to source" and up to the higher orgs, then I could be with the sane people.

Oh I am c-r-i-n-g-i-n-g right now that I thought that! If I had known that Int Management/COB were the craziest mother fuckers of them all, I would have bolted much sooner. MUCH sooner.

Ditto. I thought that if the Chief of Beef or anyone at Int level had an inkling at what was going on at the local yokel circus they'd flip...had I known that the three ring was nuttier at the big top...

You'd think I would of smelled a rat sooner when the missions rolled through town, huh?

Head/ass/up.

 

[guanoloco]

• Even when I was in I thought it was a cult. I had looked up the definition of Cult and it had something to do with following the ideal of a single person etc.
• So I thought it was a cult but by that definition I thought many religions were cults.
• In fact when people told me I was in a cult I said that is true. So are you.
• Then I learned about the other definition of a cult in which you add being ostracized and you are not allowed to think for yourself and how you get love bombed on the way in all those other criteria.
• Again....I think this also applies to other religions but fewer than my original criteria for a cult.
• Then I found out about the severity of the disconnection and and the RPF etc that it wasi an evil cult.
• That was the difference for me.
• I still think it is a religion a philosophy and a cult an evil cult

You were being...ohhh...dare I say it?....too Reasonable!

 

[Loohan]

Part of me always could discern that it was a cult, another but part of me saw benefits and imagined potentials, and overrode the first part, sometimes with diffiCULTy.

I didn't have the excuse of thinking it was just a local phenomenon; the downstatedness, maybe, but not the behavior.
The paramilitary SO with their uniforms. Sheesh, i was a long-haired anti-war greenie when i got in. The fact that so many "Clears" seemed to be more fucked up than i was. And worse, later came the NOTs pre-OTs, the NEW OTVII's...
The Chinese School practice. The absurd control-freakism. The clapping and hiphiphooraying at Ron's mugshot.

At the Battle of Portland, whatsisname, that actor guy, asked the crowd "Who here has had their eyesight IMPROVE from Scientology?" And i couldn't see anyone other than myself not raising their hands. I knew that at least most of these people were LIARS. I was always a rather naively honest guy, and had trouble adapting. I had had a fair bit of lower-level auditing, which did not affect my eyesight either way.

 

[clamicide]

Ditto. I thought that if the Chief of Beef or anyone at Int level had an inkling at what was going on at the local yokel circus they'd flip...had I known that the three ring was nuttier at the big top...

You'd think I would of smelled a rat sooner when the missions rolled through town, huh?

Head/ass/up.

It was part of a huge wake-up call when my natural instinct to be nosy discovered some interesting things. I had got reamed for writing up something that "Shouldn't Be". I then started reading folders and found out that when other staff wrote stuff and sent it uplines, uplines screamed at the org to handle the entheta or whatever and the person who wrote it got creamed for bypassing. Uplines obviously didn't care and wanted it shut down.

After leaving, I still hadn't quite realized that it started with Hubbard. A wonderful woman told me that she had to find out if Hubbard wanted the orgs run the way they were run, and she had determined that "he did". I started reading everything I could get my hands on, and came to the same conclusion. The monster that is Scientology is the monster the created, the way he wanted it created.

 

[Terril park]

I'm also in the minority.

I always KNEW it was a cult. When I walked in the door of the L.A. Org and got the creeps from the wide-eyed receptionist to the overly aggressive registrar. I knew these were a bunch of crazies. I joined because my best friend was involved and wanted to be close to her. I also wanted to be part of the quasi celebrity group that was the basis of Celebrity Center back in the 70's. Right -- I didn't stay at LA Org but went to CC the next day.

People seemed more normal there but I still knew in the back of my mind that things were very off. I was always connected to the outside world and heard all the criticism and cult accusations. I just didn't care. These were the people I wanted to be around.

There were many things I enjoyed about the tech but I was never as gung ho and rah rah rah about it as so many people were.

When I was a newbie me and my friends used to have so much fun joking about LRH and Scientology. We were hilarious and it made it ok to be a part of something that was being criticized by the rest of the world.

When the HCOB "Jokers and Degraders" came out that's when everything changed. The tone changed to dead seriousness. No longer were people willing to laugh at themselves. People spoke in hushed tones and if there were problems with supervisors, the tech, ethics, etc. people were afraid to speak out.

I knew a woman who had been on the RPF who told me some of the horrors that she had gone through. She made me promise never to repeat what she had told me. I never did. However, I could not understand why she remained a Scientologist. Why she was willing to pay her "freeloader debt" and continue in the cult. For that matter why did I remain? Because nothing happened to me? Because that sort of thing could only happen to a sea org member not public.

When I saw things like that I would become inactive for awhile but eventually would go back. I missed my friends and heard stories that staff were being treated so much better... etc.

Like you, Terril, I was given the Clear carrot too. I was Clear then not Clear then Clear then not Clear. What a crock!

It took me 30 years before I actively made the decision to quit and never go back. I knew it was a cult and LRH was a total fraud. There was no reason for me to be a part of it again.

Clear has always seemed problematical in CO$. I can't recall hearing of one problem
in this area in the FZ. Not sure why exactly. Perhaps people accepting the PC's data when he says he's clear?

I know 2 OT5s who have had to do CCRD 5 times. When they reach OT 8 they could have look forward to re-doing objectives, fortunately they are independents now so will be spared that blessing.

 

[guanoloco]

It was part of a huge wake-up call when my natural instinct to be nosy discovered some interesting things. I had got reamed for writing up something that "Shouldn't Be". I then started reading folders and found out that when other staff wrote stuff and sent it uplines, uplines screamed at the org to handle the entheta or whatever and the person who wrote it got creamed for bypassing. Uplines obviously didn't care and wanted it shut down.

After leaving, I still hadn't quite realized that it started with Hubbard. A wonderful woman told me that she had to find out if Hubbard wanted the orgs run the way they were run, and she had determined that "he did". I started reading everything I could get my hands on, and came to the same conclusion. The monster that is Scientology is the monster the created, the way he wanted it created.

Sindy posted the apocalyptic pic with the Titanium Blues meme and this made me wonder what would happen if Scientology were dropped into a petri dish without outside influence. What would it look like? If you read all the bulletins and policies, which are never followed or practiced uniformly but only expediently, they are sensible and fair. I realized later that these writings and such are PR cover ups in and of themselves because Ron's churches are contaminated with Ron and run contrary to the images conveyed in these bulletins and policies. Veda talks about TWTH being a PR cover up for the MSH/GO scandal and the Brainwashing Manual an obvious PR stunt...well, I'm thinking the same for the sensible and fair PLs and bulletins, pure PR.

But what would happen if a group without existing contact were to implement the crap? What would it look like? Imagine genuine ARC and truth and honesty and integrity and factual help...where honesty is afforded rights for real.

 

[Techless]

"But what would happen if a group without existing contact were to implement the crap? What would it look like? Imagine genuine ARC and truth and honesty and integrity and factual help...where honesty is afforded rights for real."

HHmm - I think this scenario has played out many, many (ad nauseum) times - and is the proof in the puddin' that it's F-ed from the get-go.
I don't see why people keep trying to imagine it some other way, like: by trying to 'take the evil' out of it!

Geez man, might as well imagine Satan without all that fire and stuff - WTF?

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Ditto. I thought that if the Chief of Beef or anyone at Int level had an inkling at what was going on at the local yokel circus they'd flip...had I known that the three ring was nuttier at the big top...

You'd think I would of smelled a rat sooner when the missions rolled through town, huh?

Head/ass/up.

I had been in Scn for about 5-6 years (5 months on CL IV Org Staff, non contracted in the latter '60's) when I joined Flag Crew in the early '70's. When I was Int Management Staff (Flag Bureaux) over time it became obvious to me that Scn Senior Management well knew about the conditions in the Orgs and were a major cause of those conditions. Subsequently, I became CommodeDoors Pers Staff and over time it became obvious to me that El Ron was well aware of and the source of the conditions in the Orgs. I bailed out when the CMO took over, the Missions were looted and the Mission Holders were savaged, and David Mayo, Bill Franks and scores upon scores of the folks that built the Cof$ were removed from post and many Declared as SP's.

As the ancient Chinese proverb goes..."A fish rots from the head down". IMO, the only reason most Scns go along with the crap is their belief in the Myth of OT and the Myth of El Ron as the OT de OT's.

Face

 

[Idle Morgue]

Wow. Well I guess I'm following in Arnie's footsteps because I'd never seen that post before or Arnie's 8 steps. The things I wrote out in my OP today I just came up with right off the top of my head based solely on exactly what happened to me as I moved away from the cult. Interesting that they paralleled your 8 steps and the things Arnie said. Guess I was more right about this than I thought. Thanks for the referral to your earlier post.

No more held down 7's - the mind starts to think "clear" and this is proof. I found your steps and Arnie's spot on for me as well. Good post!

 

[Commander Birdsong]

I had been in Scn for about 5-6 years (5 months on CL IV Org Staff, non contracted in the latter '60's) when I joined Flag Crew in the early '70's. When I was Int Management Staff (Flag Bureaux) over time it became obvious to me that Scn Senior Management well knew about the conditions in the Orgs. Subsequently, I became CommodeDoors Pers Staff and over time it became obvious to me that El Ron was well aware of and the source of the conditions in the Orgs. I bailed out when the CMO took over, the Missions were looted and the Mission Holders were savaged, and David Mayo, Bill Franks and scores upon scores of the folks built the Cof$ were removed from post and/or Declared SP's.

As the ancient Chinese proverb goes..."A fish rots from the head down". IMO, the only reason most Scns go along with the crap is their belief in the Myth of OT and the Myth of El Ron as the OT de OT's.

Face

ahhh...

i was just going to post that proverb on this thread face. "great minds think alike."

but i heard it as "a fish rots from the head" and attributed as an old italian saying. there's another old italian saying which seems appropriate to this board as well; "a former nun has nothing good to say about her convent"

 

[Idle Morgue]

I had been in Scn for about 5-6 years (5 months on CL IV Org Staff, non contracted in the latter '60's) when I joined Flag Crew in the early '70's. When I was Int Management Staff (Flag Bureaux) over time it became obvious to me that Scn Senior Management well knew about the conditions in the Orgs. Subsequently, I became CommodeDoors Pers Staff and over time it became obvious to me that El Ron was well aware of and the source of the conditions in the Orgs. I bailed out when the CMO took over, the Missions were looted and the Mission Holders were savaged, and David Mayo, Bill Franks and scores upon scores of the folks built the Cof$ were removed from post and many Declared as SP's.

As the ancient Chinese proverb goes..."A fish rots from the head down". IMO, the only reason most Scns go along with the crap is their belief in the Myth of OT and the Myth of El Ron as the OT de OT's.

Face

A fist rots from the head down - that is so true! I realized after working in several major corporations that if the guy at the bottom is sour and does not care - it started at the top and reflects the owner's and top executive's attitude about customer's and employee's.

I noticed that some of the things management was doing was wrong - like buying big vacant buildings when the several I received services were virtually vacant. It was a very bad management decision and I knew management was making a mistake. Then I witnessed the purchases of the buildings and saw more mistakes.

Ole El Wrong did not put that in his "tech"... now we know why - for young people that have no other experience - they believe everything Ron and management tells them!! That is why Scientology loves young people!! They are clueless about how life really works!

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

ahhh...

i was just going to post that proverb on this thread face. "great minds think alike."

but i heard it as "a fish rots from the head" and attributed as an old italian saying. there's another old italian saying which seems appropriate to this board as well; "a former nun has nothing good to say about her convent"

Italian cuisine and culture in general has Chinese influence.

 

[guanoloco]

"But what would happen if a group without existing contact were to implement the crap? What would it look like? Imagine genuine ARC and truth and honesty and integrity and factual help...where honesty is afforded rights for real."

HHmm - I think this scenario has played out many, many (ad nauseum) times - and is the proof in the puddin' that it's F-ed from the get-go.
I don't see why people keep trying to imagine it some other way, like: by trying to 'take the evil' out of it!

Geez man, might as well imagine Satan without all that fire and stuff - WTF?

Well I'm interested. How has this scenario played out many, many times? I'm talking about people with zero prior exposure discovering the material and doing it completely independent of any and all pre-existing Scionos. This has happened?
And many, many times?

 

[Gib]

Wow. Well I guess I'm following in Arnie's footsteps because I'd never seen that post before or Arnie's 8 steps. The things I wrote out in my OP today I just came up with right off the top of my head based solely on exactly what happened to me as I moved away from the cult. Interesting that they paralleled your 8 steps and the things Arnie said. Guess I was more right about this than I thought. Thanks for the referral to your earlier post.

The steps for me were:

1. getting debbie cook email which validated all the outpoints I saw/experienced.

2. Getting the nerve up to start researching on the internet. Believe me, I was shitting in my pants when I started, but the mystery was created and I had to know.

3. My first stop somehow was the Village Voice Truth Rundown series and I watched the video's by Hy Levy, Sindy, Mike, Marty, Amy, etc.

4. Then I found out there was an Independent Field delivering auditing & training, and I found the Freezone. This gave me great joy that I could get cheaper auditing, but I then had to verify if these folks were squirrels or not.

5. Thus, I decided to really due some due diligence. So I continued researching non-stop, I couldn't get enough. I had already crossed the line, and I actually decided I'd rather get auditing from the Indie or Freezone field.

6. During the above time period, I was looking for out-tech and who could be trusted and who left the church.

7. So, this was last year, I landed on Marty's place and actually read all the coming out stories. I landed on Scientology-Cult, Friends of LRH, and a few other websites/blogs. (I stumbled on ESMB but thought folks here were psych critic's trying to stop scientology).

8. I attempted to tell some people's in what I found, but that backfired, thus I decided I needed more ammo, thus more research. found Jeff Hawkins, Mark bunker,

9. One of my questions in my mind was, where are the real old timers from before the folks who came out on Marty's place, like the folks before when I got in which was the late 1980's.

10. That landed me on ESMB (got my confront up even further), and then I lurked and read stories/treads here, and realized, WOW, here are the old timers. Son of a gun, to my surprise.

11. By lurking and reading here, I had questions, but ultimately and I thank Gadfly for this since he mentioned it in his posts, I started to think with removing "fixed ideas" installed by Hubbard, but also knowing the fact that Hubbard said someday scientology will have to be run out, the two went together hand in glove. Thus my journey shifted from the alteration of the tech to what actually is the tech?

12. So I researched a lot here on ESMB, a goldmine of information. To this I thank all the posters, everyone, if good or bad, it's all good.

13. Finding the Opening Pandora's Box tread, Apollo tread, Face's tread, etc - all opened my eyes further. Veda's constant reposting of things, HH's humor, the Aussies, all you folks, one way or the other. Leaving Scientology site, Ask a Scientologist site, Jesse Prince, Larry Brennan, Karen, Maggoo.

14. Reading Mike's book Idenics helped a lot to remove fixed ideas, and his write-up in the freezone pages.

15. All the the personal stories here and comments, all good stuff.

16. Then started posting here and communicating what I have experienced, opinions, know, etc., which even further helps to remove the false data.

 

[Reasonable]

I find it quite astonishing that even people on this board still believe in and promote the 'tech' but each to their own and all that - I just don't get it.

It depends on to what degree someone believes i the tech. For instance I still find Study Tech useful and I have had wins with auditing and I have seen others have wins from various aspects of "The Tech".

So I like my tech cafeteria style. I pick and choose what suits me at the time.

Now the idea that tech will deliver what Hubbard promised. Total Spiritual Freedom, a world without crime. That is another matter all together.

I would think that most people who belive in the tech believe in some aspects and very few believe in it all the way.

 

[poppy]

I'm sure many of us have had different experiences in Scientology, some worse than others. It has taken years for me to be able to untangle the web of trauma and abuses I suffered amongst which I was unable to find any 'wins' or 'success stories'. I grew up with study tech which taught me to swallow whole Hubbard's words. If a passage didn't make sense I would look for the word(s) I didn't know the meaning of, if this didn't resolve my misunderstandings I would go to word clearing. Because of course the problem must have been in me and not Hubbard's words, he was always right. If word clearing didn't do the trick then it was off to Qual for 'de-bugging' (the bug must be in me) and finally to Ethics where I would look at myself, my overts, my withholds, my doubts etc.... This system soon taught me that if something in Hubbard's tech didn't make sense to me then I better somehow make it make sense otherwise I would be seen as the one at fault.

Study tech taught me not to question, not to doubt and to accept the tech even if it didn't make sense. Bearing in mind I was a child when I was subjected to this sort of conditioning it's unsurprising that after leaving Scientology I was unable to think critically or critically analyse the opinions or writings of others. None of Hubbard's 'work' (I use that term loosely) was backed up by any kind of evidence. He knew that and he had to find a way to get people to accept his writings and for this reason he developed study tech. He didn't use it to help people learn to study. I only learnt how to study after leaving Scientology. Education means being able to read something and disagree with it or question it or further develop it. I know plenty of non-scientologists who use a dictionary if they encounter a word they don't know - that isn't something that solely exists in the world of scientology. In fact, I had a very poor and limited vocabulary when I left and have known many non-scientologists with very sophisticated vocabulary's.

Hubbard didn't make up the 'tech' to help people - he didn't care about anyone other than himself. He was clever I'll give him that, but every word he wrote was only to hurt and harms others.