Need help concerning my family

[Pixie]

Maybe DOFs advice not to talk about the subject is best.

Possibly you owe an apology for making fun of their beliefs, you'll
have to figure that out yourself.

If they however want to talk about scn, you could tell them they can
do it in the freezone, and OT 3 is generally available for maybe 1000 euros,
auditing on any level can be had from between $30-100, that the L's are available way cheaper than in the COS and that they won't get pestered by ethics officers or OSA,......and there is no threat of disconnection in the FZ!

And they can have auditors of the highest class trained by LRH.

Here we go Terril, you see this is not what he was asking about? Can you now see why people get upset with you?? He is not looking for something else for them to get into, he's looking to try to get them OUT of something he knows is dangerous! I'm sure if he was looking for another alternative, he'd have ASKED! If not, he'd have found you 'freezerzone' thread! And who are you to tell this new person that he owes an apology, that is not for you to decide. I do not feel this is an appropriate way to treat any new person coming to this board.

 

[Terril park]

Terril, your post is in really bad taste. The relatives are IN and happily so, and money does not appear to be a problem, and they are OT3. This poster is asking for help regarding disconnection, not looking for alternatives!

If his relatives were doing what they wanted in the FZ there WOULDN'T BE a threat of disconnection.

Of course they have barriers to looking there
as its all black PRed as "squirrell". It may help them to know that they can be audited by class VIIIs trained by Hubbard.

 

[Neo]

If his relatives were doing what they wanted in the FZ there WOULDN'T BE a threat of disconnection.

That is a very good point.

Of course they have barriers to looking there
as its all black PRed as "squirrell". It may help them to know that they can be audited by class VIIIs trained by Hubbard.

However, in the Co$ you cannot and do not possibly consider alternatives, such as the Freezone. You would be in Ethics in a heartbeat, and that means no Bridge progress. Telling them they could be audited by Class VIIIs trained by Hubbard would make no difference. To those in the Church, if you are not in the Church (ie - Freezoners) then it is because you are out-ethics, SPs etc. It doesn't matter who trained you. It's nearly impossible to communicate over that consideration, without causing further damage.

I know you mean well Terrill, but in the Church, the Freezone is considered lower than soap scum. One has to be out, or consider them self done with the Church in some manner, before they would look in that direction.

 

[Wisened One]

CooLa!

I hope that your family wakes up soon and leaves. I so hate to see people fleeced of all their money like that....

 

[Terril park]

That is a very good point.

Re disconnection not happening in the Freezone.[/QUOTE]

However, in the Co$ you cannot and do not possibly consider alternatives, such as the Freezone. You would be in Ethics in a heartbeat, and that means no Bridge progress. Telling them they could be audited by Class VIIIs trained by Hubbard would make no difference. To those in the Church, if you are not in the Church (ie - Freezoners) then it is because you are out-ethics, SPs etc. It doesn't matter who trained you. It's nearly impossible to communicate over that consideration, without causing further damage.

I know you mean well Terrill, but in the Church, the Freezone is considered lower than soap scum. One has to be out, or consider them self done with the Church in some manner, before they would look in that direction.

This is a difficult area. Pauls friend disconnected. My friend went FZ.

However I waited until family was out of SO and I knew he could not be on lines anytime soon. The apparent turning point was that L's were available cheap. After MANY conversations.

Lots of difficult conversations.

Maybe I waited too long? Dunno.

Everyones circumstances are different I think.
And now, with the help of anon and media, those "in" must have greater reasons to question matters.

To NOT mention the data on the net/FZ/ etc may be violating ones duty.

One has to do what works best. Unfortunately those "in" may have problems and may be unpredictable.

To talk to someone still in requires enormous skill. I guess mostly.

Maybe sometimes not. 30-40 per month contact the FZ.

I'd say best policy is wait and see and learn the best you can what may work. This may not be easy at all. Maybe do nothing is best.

Try keeping contact with mail to feel out the situation?

And of course ask us here again anytime.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Here we go Terril, you see this is not what he was asking about? Can you now see why people get upset with you?? He is not looking for something else for them to get into, he's looking to try to get them OUT of something he knows is dangerous! I'm sure if he was looking for another alternative, he'd have ASKED! If not, he'd have found you 'freezerzone' thread! And who are you to tell this new person that he owes an apology, that is not for you to decide. I do not feel this is an appropriate way to treat any new person coming to this board.

Well, Pixie, I think the thing is that some people (certainly not everybody) are reluctant to leave CofS even if they do find out what's going on there because they do like the belief system.

So for THOSE people and THOSE PEOPLE ONLY- then a spinoff would be a good idea. If those people are still "tech purists" (as I like to call them) then the Freezone might be the way for them to go. And a nice thing about the FZ is one can leave and drift away without being called, sent letters to, have people come by trying to handle them. It's pretty easy peasy.

Now, if you had people who did like some of the beliefs but weren't "tech purists", then some other spinoff could be the answer.

Pixie, I know Terril personally-we've been friends for years, emailed and phoned and finally met a few weeks ago. He is the most tolerant open minded (in the non pejorative, non Scn sense of the word) one can find. He studies other belief systems. If he meets someone who is Christian, Atheist, Wiccan- and he has met all sorts of people in such categories and more, too- he does not try to convert them. And it's not like he has to hold himself back because he's just dying to do that. He honestly doesn't mind or worry or find it to be a problem if someone wants to do something else. He also has talked to people who were leaving CofS AND leaving Scn which is what they wanted- and he didn't preach to them at all.

So I know that Terril's message is: It's here if you want it, if that's the thing keeping you in CofS ("tech", I mean) and if you don't, that's great, and maybe we can have some beers at the pub. Either way is cool with me.

I know this for a fact.

My own stance is a bit different because I'm really not so into proselytization. I would suggest that ANYBODY leaving CofS (or leaving any cult or even mainstream church) no matter how much they still like "Tech" or don't like it or are sure or aren't sure- that they just take time off from the whole ideology thing to decompress. I can't think of anyone who wouldn't benefit from waiting a bit.

But if someone feels they can't leave CofS because they can't get the "Tech" anywhere else, then they ought to know that this is no reason to stay there.

That's all.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

That is a very good point.



However, in the Co$ you cannot and do not possibly consider alternatives, such as the Freezone. You would be in Ethics in a heartbeat, and that means no Bridge progress. Telling them they could be audited by Class VIIIs trained by Hubbard would make no difference. To those in the Church, if you are not in the Church (ie - Freezoners) then it is because you are out-ethics, SPs etc. It doesn't matter who trained you. It's nearly impossible to communicate over that consideration, without causing further damage.

I know you mean well Terrill, but in the Church, the Freezone is considered lower than soap scum. One has to be out, or consider them self done with the Church in some manner, before they would look in that direction.

Well, yeah, anyone doing FZ stuff can't go back to CofS. They sorta can, but they'll just get the runaround and lots of handlings and nothing else but more and more bullshit. I've known people to whom this happened.

But I do know people who stayed longer in CofS than they wanted to because they thought they couldn't get the real deal anywhere else, as far as Scn stuff went. John and I were like that. It turned out not to be true. I'd have liked to have known far far earlier that squirrels were not evil and that the FZ or what have you won't screw you up.

As it was, I ended up walking away determined to be a Scn'ist my own way but not ever in CofS and at the time not even a FZer. I figured I could make my own way. But not everyone would think that way since we're all individuals with our own way of looking at things.

I've talked to Terril about this. He's ex CofS (as am I and most others here). He knows quite well how the FZ and "Squirrelling" is viewed in CofS. He talks to recent escapees from CofS, plus he was in for a long time. It's obvious CofS hates squirrel groups (as they call them) and indoctrinates people against them. But it's also a fact that people who leave CofS who still like some or all or any of the ideas in Scn often do end up in the FZ or doing TIR or Idenics or other things.

As I said to Pixie, I'd recommend stepping back and decompressing first, no matter how sure one is. One still needs time and that's because of SO many reasons, some having to do with the effect of ideology on a person, some not.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Terril, your post is in really bad taste. The relatives are IN and happily so, and money does not appear to be a problem, and they are OT3. This poster is asking for help regarding disconnection, not looking for alternatives!

I think when people are looking for help, they are looking for alternatives and some brainstorming is in order. And in brainstorming, one puts ALL sorts of ideas on the table, even ones which may not work at all.

And pursuant to the brainstorming, if some suggestion is made that really won't work, then one is free to dismiss it.

 

[Div6]

I don't think this is a good idea. The more that is said about Scientology, the more you will tend to express your honest opinion. And the more you say about it, the worse it will be. Honest. Really.

I was in the Sea Organization for 23 years, did a lot of training and had a lot of auditing. I'm also a fairly smart guy. I was working in a Scientology company after I left the Sea Organization. I rapidly realized that there was no way I could talk about my personal relationship to Scientology without revealing my true feelings, which would basically result in me being kicked out of my job and I wanted to continue to work there. So I adopted a policy of saying "I don't want to talk about it" when questioned about my personal "plans for getting up the Bridge". People assumed that it was something I was upset about, and didn't push it. In reality, I wasn't at all upset about it, but I realized that there was NOTHING I could say that would be helpful.

I repeat to you, CooLa, if the subject of Scientology comes up in conversation, or in a letter, say NOTHING about it. Just smile, say you don't want to talk about it, and talk about something else. It will be hard, but if you are honest with them, and express your true feelings, and try to save them from themselves, you will lose them. They will have no choice but to disconnect from you, which will mean maybe you will not be able to speak to them for the rest of this lifetime. Are you willing to risk that?

Here is one tiny example. There was a guy who was my best friend for about 8 years. He was not as rigid as some church Scientologists, and we could talk about almost anything. We had discussed various aspects of the freezone. One day in 2004 I told him I had been getting auditing from a freezoner. A week later he told me he couldn't speak to me any more. I haven't spoken to him since. My best friend! Pffft. Gone in an instant because I told him I was getting auditing in the freezone.

Paul

I have to agree with this CooLa. One of the lightest "PTS Handlings" is called
"good roads, fair weather". Keep the conversation light and pleasant, and stay away from the "hot buttons". If they bring up Scn, just brush on past. Gradually, they will see you are not interested, and perhaps begin to look around themselves as to why.

But if you become a "source of antagonism" then THEY ARE Required to 'handle or disconnect'. So just don't play that game.

 

[Neo]

This is a difficult area. Pauls friend disconnected. My friend went FZ.

However I waited until family was out of SO and I knew he could not be on lines anytime soon. The apparent turning point was that L's were available cheap. After MANY conversations.

Lots of difficult conversations.

Maybe I waited too long? Dunno.

Everyones circumstances are different I think.
And now, with the help of anon and media, those "in" must have greater reasons to question matters.

To NOT mention the data on the net/FZ/ etc may be violating ones duty.

One has to do what works best. Unfortunately those "in" may have problems and may be unpredictable.

To talk to someone still in requires enormous skill. I guess mostly.

Maybe sometimes not. 30-40 per month contact the FZ.

I'd say best policy is wait and see and learn the best you can what may work. This may not be easy at all. Maybe do nothing is best.

Try keeping contact with mail to feel out the situation?

And of course ask us here again anytime.

It is a fine line, I guess. My main concern is if you say something and it doesn't go over well, you have just invited a LOT of ethics trouble. However, you make a good point - you do have to do something.

I highlighted the above because I think this to be the tipping point. The protests, and the media that results because of it, are helping shatter the silence that prevents people knowing the truth, and moving on - either to the Freezone, or wherever.

 

[Pixie]

Well, Pixie, I think the thing is that some people (certainly not everybody) are reluctant to leave CofS even if they do find out what's going on there because they do like the belief system.

So for THOSE people and THOSE PEOPLE ONLY- then a spinoff would be a good idea. If those people are still "tech purists" (as I like to call them) then the Freezone might be the way for them to go. And a nice thing about the FZ is one can leave and drift away without being called, sent letters to, have people come by trying to handle them. It's pretty easy peasy.

Now, if you had people who did like some of the beliefs but weren't "tech purists", then some other spinoff could be the answer.

Pixie, I know Terril personally-we've been friends for years, emailed and phoned and finally met a few weeks ago. He is the most tolerant open minded (in the non pejorative, non Scn sense of the word) one can find. He studies other belief systems. If he meets someone who is Christian, Atheist, Wiccan- and he has met all sorts of people in such categories and more, too- he does not try to convert them. And it's not like he has to hold himself back because he's just dying to do that. He honestly doesn't mind or worry or find it to be a problem if someone wants to do something else. He also has talked to people who were leaving CofS AND leaving Scn which is what they wanted- and he didn't preach to them at all.

So I know that Terril's message is: It's here if you want it, if that's the thing keeping you in CofS ("tech", I mean) and if you don't, that's great, and maybe we can have some beers at the pub. Either way is cool with me.

I know this for a fact.

My own stance is a bit different because I'm really not so into proselytization. I would suggest that ANYBODY leaving CofS (or leaving any cult or even mainstream church) no matter how much they still like "Tech" or don't like it or are sure or aren't sure- that they just take time off from the whole ideology thing to decompress. I can't think of anyone who wouldn't benefit from waiting a bit.

But if someone feels they can't leave CofS because they can't get the "Tech" anywhere else, then they ought to know that this is no reason to stay there.

That's all.

Thank you for your response Fluffy, however I never ever said I did not think the freezone should not exist, I feel it necessary for some who feel they can only come out of the cult on a gradient. Your relationship and opinion of Terril however is of no concern of mine, one man's meat is another's poison and all that, however, all I am saying is all I have said before, there is no need to shove the freezone down people's necks, simple as that, and from my experience, no matter how wonderful you think he is, when confronted with a disagreement, his non sequeter and irresponsible answers and rudenss to me in the past cannot be denied. He is entitled to his opinion, I am entitled to mine, I don't feel Terril needs anyone to fight any battle for him, I feel with his avoidence of truth and his rudness to me in the past speaks volumes and for sure he is well fit to do this himself, also, I'm not interested in what his fan club have to say about him no matter how much I appreciate your calm and mature response.

 

[Zander]

It would be a very bad mistake for CooLa to even mention the freezone to his relatives, let alone suggest it as an alternative.

And for anyone leaving the cofs, you don't need to go from the frying pan straight into the fire. Give youself a break, hang loose, evaluate things, get back your humanity.

Zander

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Thank you for your response Fluffy, however I never ever said I did not think the freezone should not exist, I feel it necessary for some who feel they can only come out of the cult on a gradient. Your relationship and opinion of Terril however is of no concern of mine, one man's meat is another's poison and all that, however, all I am saying is all I have said before, there is no need to shove the freezone down people's necks, simple as that, and from my experience, no matter how wonderful you think he is, when confronted with a disagreement, his non sequeter and irresponsible answers and rudenss to me in the past cannot be denied. He is entitled to his opinion, I am entitled to mine, I don't feel Terril needs anyone to fight any battle for him, I feel with his avoidence of truth and his rudness to me in the past speaks volumes and for sure he is well fit to do this himself, also, I'm not interested in what his fan club have to say about him no matter how much I appreciate your calm and mature response.

Oh, not a fan club- as such. I know lots of people whom I like but am not a fan of any.

Just chiming in with some feedback o' my own since I happened to have some.

 

[Pixie]

Oh, not a fan club- as such. I know lots of people whom I like but am not a fan of any.

Just chiming in with some feedback o' my own since I happened to have some.

Hey no worries Fluffbag! We are all entitled to say our piece. I am glad however that you appear to be keeping your head, makes for a welcome change, very refreshing indeed.