OTV111 Expires Anonymously

[uncle sam]

Dennis Dubin OTV111 Dies - Why?
Dennis is dead, he's gone and he's buried. Another dead body.
He was in his early 60's when prostate cancer killed him in early October 2007.
Dubin a renowned scientologist public relations expert was a Freedom Medal Winner and a Patron.He was from a prominent and wealthy Philadelphia Main Line family. Dennis was a good guy, very friendly, very nice, always ready to help and had an infectious smile. It is so very sad, he did not have to die. Prostate cancer is very treatable if detected in its early stages. He had access to the best medical care, his family spared no expense in his dying days to see that he had the best medical treatment at the best hospital on the Main Line. To no avail it was too late.
Dennis and his wonderful wife Bunny fell under the spell of scientology's anti western medicine culture. A Flag auditor flew to his bedside in his last days in an attempt to save his life. The auditor failed. Scientology failed. The insidious culture of "we know better than the wog doctors" doomed Dubin.The dynamic married copule had elected to go south of the border for treatment in Ole Mexico. It did not work. The Dubins had mistakenly listened to their peer group of other Operating Thetans. Mexico they exclaimed, go to Mexico. Irony of irony, the Dubins lived near the world famous Fox Chase Cancer Institute, The University of Pennsylvania Hospital, Temple University Hospital, Thomas Jefferson University Hospital and other hospitals of great note.
He left behind a truly loving wife, an adopted child, many friends, distraught siblings and outraged parents. It is truly a terrible thing for parents to bury their own child. It is horrible for a religious organizations' culture of arrogance and ignorance, whose claim to fame is "knowing how to know" to kill off its' converts.
This must stop. Dying of prostate cancer is awfully painful. The onslaught of narcotics does not adequately stop the pain radiating throughout the body. Incontinence produces uncontrolled bowel movements which set the rectum on fire. Is this the end phenomena every OTV111 looks forward to? Being tortured by pain. Dying slowly. Overwhelmed by regret. Knowing that you yourself and your religious leaders are so very very wrong and not able to correct anything, is that a death with dignity? Is this the bridge to total freedom or the alley way to a masochistic hell?
We are so sad you are gone Dennis, so needlessly, a tragedy of cult proportion.
It is only a hope your death will help to expose and eradicate the evil within the Church of Scientology.

 

[chipgallo]

Thanks for posting this. You might want to get it added to the whyaretheydead.net web site.

I wrote up my experience with a colonoscopy as a good early warning step to a.r.s a while back. You can even negotiate with the anesthesiologist if you don't want a general. I stayed awake and had a nice chat with the doctor and got a set of pictures too! I wonder if Dennis was getting his annual checkup and they just missed the hormonal indicators for prostate disease. You can still be "cause over life" by paying a few hundred bucks for the testing (given good insurance of course).

 

[sandygirl]

How very sad for his family! He sounds like a very kind man.

I am very sorry he put all of his hope in a false promise!

 

[OHTEEATE]

sad

I knew Dennis and Bunny. Great couple. I am sorry for Bunnys loss. Mike

 

[johnAnchovie]

It is so wrong

I did not know Dennis, but I knew Rea, she died in 2005 and it was wrong, she too had access to top flight medical science and treatment.

Scientology is no better than the Flat Earth society, and you are right, this has to stop, this adopted ignorance, this, almost midevalist mentality. How many OT VII and VIII do I know that died of cancer? ten, just the ones that I know, personally, is that a higher percentage in terms of average sampling for this age group in a cross section of his social demographic? I think so.

How many Scientologists do I know that have committed suicide? about ten, that is out of maybe four thousand people. Is that an unusually high number viewed against a typical cross sectional sampling of society? I don't know, but I suspect so.

It is a travesty, Dennis dying is a travesty, the mother of three who hung herself while on NOTS, the teenage Sea Org girl who drank a tin of paint thinner before throwing herself off the roof, Ellie Perkins, Lisa McPherson, Stacy Moxon it goes on.

I am outraged, others are becomming outraged, others have been outraged for a very long time. Maybe we need to do something about this now.

 

[Funky Donny]

I often joke about Hubbard's take on smoking cigarettes:

"Not smoking enough will cause lung cancer." (L Ron Hubbard, SHSBC Lecture 'Auditor Effect on Meter', July 19, 1961)

But when you attach a name, a real life, and a real death to the mandated ignorance from the cult, it's not funny. It's sick, twisted, and yet another example of an atrocity perpetuated by this perverted cult.

We're taking the cult down, and Miscavige is going to jail.

 

[nw2394]

How many Scientologists do I know that have committed suicide? about ten, that is out of maybe four thousand people. Is that an unusually high number viewed against a typical cross sectional sampling of society? I don't know, but I suspect so.

In Ireland, where you are apparently, the suicide rate is 12.7 per 100,000 persons per year. Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate.

So 10 out of 4000 sounds on the high side - depends on what time frame your data is collected over - could be normal if you're talking 25 years of experience.

This craziness of OTs kicking the bucket in this way - it is just nuts - there are HCOBs about getting medical treatment when needed - they just don't seem to apply them.

Nick

 

[Zinjifar]

You seem to be forgetting the 'Hidden Standard'

What? It doesn't exist?

Zinj

 

[nw2394]

You seem to be forgetting the 'Hidden Standard'

What? It doesn't exist?

Zinj

Zinj, you know more Scientology than the average Scientologist

Nick

 

[Tanstaafl]

Zinj, you know more Scientology than the average Scientologist

Nick

Nick, ask him why he read the whole of Battlefield Earth and Mission Earth (all ten vols!) even though he hated them!

 

[Free to shine]

I am outraged, others are becomming outraged, others have been outraged for a very long time. Maybe we need to do something about this now.

I would really like to know how many OT's of all different levels there are and how many have died.
Is there any way to collect the data from the ones we know now that have died? You know, even to list them out in a central location would help direct attention to it.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

How many Scientologists do I know that have committed suicide? about ten, that is out of maybe four thousand people. Is that an unusually high number viewed against a typical cross sectional sampling of society? I don't know, but I suspect so.

Your first mistake is in believing that scientologists should necessarily compare to a "typical cross sectional sampling of society". Fact is scientologists tend to be "seekers", i.e. people who are in some sense "dissatisfied" with the answers, or conditions of their lives & communities. Such people are not "typical" by any means.

So the question then becomes what sort of health trends are characteristic of "seekers", and how do scientologists compare?
"Seekers" are often associated with mental health characteristics that are different from the overall population.

Furthermore, specifically with regard to the issue of suicide. OTs likely consider they have less to fear from suicide than either non-OTs or non-scientologists do generally. Such attitudinal differences are bound to reflect on suicide demographics.



Further, what additional environmental factors may influence scientologist health trends, either mental health or physical health?

One thing often overlooked in statements made about "excessive" patterns of cancer or other disease rates among OTs or scientologists is to what extent have these individuals been exposed to environmental hazards related to their time spent in scientology?

One possible correlate might be exposure to asbestos, lead, or other chemical contaminants while aboard Sea Org vessels.

Such materials are VERY common in shipboard environments. That was especially true of WW II era vessels, whether military or civilian. It was even more prevalent prior to the adoption of regulations requiring confinement and disposal of such materials. As "religious" institutions the SO & Co$ are frequently exempt (or just plain ignore) requirements for maintaining environmental health.

Since persons who spent time in the "early days" on SO vessels are "disproportionately" present among OTs (especially the higher grades), such factors are quite material to any statistical analysis of OT health trends.

Conditions met at the various scientology complexes, or while working epf, or rpf, or other "special circumstances" that were common to various staff also may increase risk levels for a variety of health problems.

Similarly, the general lack of poor access to health care, especially early treatment among SO & Co$ staff, are both significant factors affecting overall rates of disease or premature death.

Point is: it's not just a question of a bunch of OTs "dying young" ergo something about the OT levels must be causing it.

Personally, I doubt the OT levels have anything to do with it, as I don't see them as having an especially profound effect on physical health at all.

In my experience scientology works best at expanding insights, awareness, & responsibility levels. It has successes with apparently psycho-somatic disorders. But "health cures" are not its real strength as a spiritual technology.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least however if scientologists in general have "skewed" health demographics curves compared to non-scientologist population groups. There are simply so many obvious differences of an environmental & cultural nature between scientologists and other demographics that might account for such things.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Colleen K. Peltomaa]

Mark, good point. I have noticed that other seekers and/or arrivers also die from cancers. I'm puzzled.

Here is a great website that is starting to delve into that: www.germannewmedicine.ca

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I definitely agree with the idea that the "OT Levels" could not have anything to do with cancer. The OT levels couldn't influence the health of gnat.

And it would be, as you say, a good idea to see how many of the OTs who died of cancer were in the SO and in less than healthy environs - after all this could have consequences for ALL former crew of ships like the Apollo.

But there is one more thing that needs to be investigated - is there something in the indoctrination of Scientologists that causes them to a) assume they are protected against cancer and thus do not need to look for warning signs and b) something in scientology that discourages them from seeking proper medical attention when they finally do discover something?

From the few instances that I know about Scientologists have died of cancers that, with early detection, are eminently survivable.

To quote the Bard of Avon and doing the appropriate substitution:

I am a jew! Hath not a jew eyes? Hath not a jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a christian is? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

So if there is a greater instance percentage wise of Scientologists dying from cancer then, Occams razor, something about Scientology its teaching and its lifestyle, is most likely causing it.

Your first mistake is in believing that scientologists should necessarily compare to a "typical cross sectional sampling of society". Fact is scientologists tend to be "seekers", i.e. people who are in some sense "dissatisfied" with the answers, or conditions of their lives & communities. Such people are not "typical" by any means.

So the question then becomes what sort of health trends are characteristic of "seekers", and how do scientologists compare?
"Seekers" are often associated with mental health characteristics that are different from the overall population.

Furthermore, specifically with regard to the issue of suicide. OTs likely consider they have less to fear from suicide than either non-OTs or non-scientologists do generally. Such attitudinal differences are bound to reflect on suicide demographics.



Further, what additional environmental factors may influence scientologist health trends, either mental health or physical health?

One thing often overlooked in statements made about "excessive" patterns of cancer or other disease rates among OTs or scientologists is to what extent have these individuals been exposed to environmental hazards related to their time spent in scientology?

One possible correlate might be exposure to asbestos, lead, or other chemical contaminants while aboard Sea Org vessels.

Such materials are VERY common in shipboard environments. That was especially true of WW II era vessels, whether military or civilian. It was even more prevalent prior to the adoption of regulations requiring confinement and disposal of such materials. As "religious" institutions the SO & Co$ are frequently exempt (or just plain ignore) requirements for maintaining environmental health.

Since persons who spent time in the "early days" on SO vessels are "disproportionately" present among OTs (especially the higher grades), such factors are quite material to any statistical analysis of OT health trends.

Conditions met at the various scientology complexes, or while working epf, or rpf, or other "special circumstances" that were common to various staff also may increase risk levels for a variety of health problems.

Similarly, the general lack of poor access to health care, especially early treatment among SO & Co$ staff, are both significant factors affecting overall rates of disease or premature death.

Point is: it's not just a question of a bunch of OTs "dying young" ergo something about the OT levels must be causing it.

Personally, I doubt the OT levels have anything to do with it, as I don't see them as having an especially profound effect on physical health at all.

In my experience scientology works best at expanding insights, awareness, & responsibility levels. It has successes with apparently psycho-somatic disorders. But "health cures" are not its real strength as a spiritual technology.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least however if scientologists in general have "skewed" health demographics curves compared to non-scientologist population groups. There are simply so many obvious differences of an environmental & cultural nature between scientologists and other demographics that might account for such things.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Hanover Fist]

So if there is a greater instance percentage wise of Scientologists dying from cancer then, Occams razor, something about Scientology its teaching and its lifestyle, is most likely causing it.

So in the spirit of keeping things simple: Scientology, especially when followed all the way to the upper levels, seems extraordinarily unhealthy. Both physically and mentally, it would seem. (cancer and suicides)


Hanover Fist

 

[nw2394]

So if there is a greater instance percentage wise of Scientologists dying from cancer then, Occams razor, something about Scientology its teaching and its lifestyle, is most likely causing it.

Naturally. But it isn't necessarily the OT levels themselves per se. As Zinj pointed out there is the factor of the hidden standard - people believing that they should be able to cure it with auditing - and therefore not getting the help they need.

There is also the factor that a lot of OTs are, due to the cost factor, at the latter end of their lives - so they would be at higher risk simply because so few of them are in their 20s and below.

To really answer this question requires a proper study - and I doubt any of us have the time/resources to give a definitive answer.

Nick

 

[nw2394]

So in the spirit of keeping things simple: Scientology, especially when followed all the way to the upper levels, seems extraordinarily unhealthy. Both physically and mentally, it would seem. (cancer and suicides)


Hanover Fist

Oh come on. I can't let you get away with a crap comment like that. Elsewhere you use, or at least appear to use, all manner of reason and logic to support your arguments. But when something happens to agree with your own prejudice any old anecdote will do to support your position.

I cry foul.

Nick

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Oh come on. I can't let you get away with a crap comment like that. Elsewhere you use, or at least appear to use, all manner of reason and logic to support your arguments. But when something happens to agree with your own prejudice any old anecdote will do to support your position.

I cry foul.

Nick

well I kind of agree with you.

It needs a real study done by people who really know how to do a population study of this kind.

It is way too easy just to use anecdotal "evidence".

 

[ChaoticPsychotic]

I resent the remark that most Scientologists are "seekers". I happen to know a large amount of people who had the misfortune of being born into a family already involved in the cult. Myself being one of them.

Of the people that I knew/know several attempted suicide to get out of the cult. Feeling trapped with their whole family being involved, sometimes suicide was viewed as being the only way "out". I experienced this phenomena myself at the age of 16. I knew a few other teenagers in the SO and Cadet Org who made attempts themselves.

 

[Hanover Fist]

Oh come on. I can't let you get away with a crap comment like that. Elsewhere you use, or at least appear to use, all manner of reason and logic to support your arguments. But when something happens to agree with your own prejudice any old anecdote will do to support your position.

I cry foul.

Nick

Okay, okay. No need to resort to nasty language. I said I was keeping it simple. I also said that "it seems". I did not proclaim that Scientology is unhealthy.

I agree with pretty much everything Mick said. To establish any kind of causal connection there would have to be some pretty rigorous research. And for the record I do not believe that Scientology causes cancer. However I do believe that (for many of the reasons Mick mentioned) being heavily involved in Scientology may put one in an unhealthy envronment (such as the SO ships) or put one in a position to receive less than adequate preventative health care (mental and physical). The stress mentioned by many of the ex-members (especially the higher you go) may also have an effect on one's health. Factor into all of this the repeated stories of not getting enough sleep, or food, or smoking like a freight train and it seems to add up to an unhealthy environment.

I think the variables are simply too numerous to account for. Therefore I would never say that Scientology causes health problems. However, I do not think it is a stretch to allege that it can exacerbate existing or potential health problems.

Hanover Fist