Snow White Redux . . . a smoking derringer?

[Enthetan]

My understanding is that as L Ron became increasingly paranoid, he allowed fewer people near him. Before DM became a major player, one or L Ron's most trusted friends was Andre Tabayoyon. I knew Andre and his wife Mary very well back in the late 70s until 1986. Andre had served as personal butler, L Ron's personal protector and many other things. Around 1982 or 1983 Andre was cut out of the picture, though, and he was deeply hurt. Andre felt this was DM's doing and that Miscavige had intentionally and systematically cut L Ron off from his personal network. However, with L Ron's paranoia, much of this might have been his own doing, too.

I think DM was playing Game of Thrones all through the 1980's, along with others. As LRH's mental state deteriorated, Scientology was ripe for a takeover by anybody skilled, smart, and ruthless enough to seize the opportunity.

DM's first target to remove was Mary Sue, who would have been the logical person to take over Scn. DM was the one who got her to step down as Controller in 1981. With Mary Sue out of the way, DM spent the rest of the 80's systematically getting rid of anyone who might oppose him, or who might operate as independent opinion leaders.

 

[Leland]

This post is not an attempt to change the direction of this thread...or muddy the waters...or derail...

But, for myself, starting Scientology in 1972....upon reading, I believe, KSW on my first course....the Student Hat...in it LRH states: "Do not question how I rose above the bank."

Thru out the hundreds and hundreds of early and later Tapes....LRH boosts and tells of OT type stories about himself....

So, now, when I look at this topic...there must have been hundreds of SO staff and some Public that worked with LRH or were in close association with him....including his entire family...that should come clean. What did they know? What did they observe?

As far as these SO, in the Hole, I can't imagine they are sitting around for years doing nothing. As in a Communist Re-Education camp...I would imagine that they won't have much left of their own minds...or brains....and it is possible that their recollections of what did happen are manually being altered...on a daily basis.

I believe my mind is being altered...and or manipulated, daily....and I've been totally out for 18 years.

Some have fair better than others...

I'm not happy with this post, but will post it anyway.

 

[Type4_PTS]

So, now, when I look at this topic...there must have been hundreds of SO staff and some Public that worked with LRH or were in close association with him....including his entire family...that should come clean. What did they know? What did they observe?

While I was never around LRH I WAS around others who were allegedly "OT's", and never saw any abilities demonstrated that were extraordinary in any way.

But there also was that policy about OT's shouldn't demonstrate abilities that were out-reality to others, or some other similar bullshit that I at least partially bought at the time.

Some who were around LRH may have bought into that as well.

 

[Type4_PTS]

I think DM was playing Game of Thrones all through the 1980's, along with others. As LRH's mental state deteriorated, Scientology was ripe for a takeover by anybody skilled, smart, and ruthless enough to seize the opportunity.

DM's first target to remove was Mary Sue, who would have been the logical person to take over Scn. DM was the one who got her to step down as Controller in 1981. With Mary Sue out of the way, DM spent the rest of the 80's systematically getting rid of anyone who might oppose him, or who might operate as independent opinion leaders.

I wonder if a contributing factor to Mary Sue being removed from the CoS was because she was beginning to wake up to Scientology being a scam.

I say that because of this story:
Jon Atack: Did Mary Sue Hubbard Doubt Scientology’s Key Experience?
https://tonyortega.org/2013/11/16/jon-atack-did-mary-sue-hubbard-doubt-scientologys-key-experience/

Anyone here that was close to Mary Sue just prior to her exit?

 

[guanoloco]

There's the post of Hubbard faking exterior about seeing the ferryboat go by and it's actually a tugboat.

That puts the Emperor's clothes firmly in the closet.

 

[phenomanon]

I'm with you on this ILove2Lurk,

I never tried to get anyone in....because I couldn't see my way clear of "setting another person up" for what I'd been through. I got one person in in my 27 years in scamology....and she was a niece of an OT 5 I knew....and was asked to do it.


But more to the point.....How is it possible so few people knew stuff....I can possible see in the later years....but earlier....all the orders going back and forth....the projects....the results or what dones...going back....the notes....the new stuff being released....there MUST have been pilots and guinea pigs.....All kinds of information had to have been floating around....and rumors too.

I just don't see how it is possible that only a couple people were "in on it."

That post someone made on another thread that a 20 year old kid put together the "Pain and Sex" HCOB from notes........HOW is it possible that this type of stuff wasn't more known?

That about some person other than LRH wrote the "Pain and Sex" HCOB.
Sounds like a "shore story".
LRH wrote it.
( my knowingness tells me).

 

[Type4_PTS]

That about some person other than LRH wrote the "Pain and Sex" HCOB.
Sounds like a "shore story".
LRH wrote it.
( my knowingness tells me).

When LRH returns from Target Two he'll probably claim someone else other than him wrote Mission Earth.

 

[JustSheila]

I wonder if a contributing factor to Mary Sue being removed from the CoS was because she was beginning to wake up to Scientology being a scam.

I say that because of this story:
Jon Atack: Did Mary Sue Hubbard Doubt Scientology’s Key Experience?
https://tonyortega.org/2013/11/16/jon-atack-did-mary-sue-hubbard-doubt-scientologys-key-experience/

Anyone here that was close to Mary Sue just prior to her exit?

The latest personal incident I know about MSH is when in the early 80s (after she was removed as Controller but before she started her prison sentence), MSH was apparently living somewhere near the complex temporarily and Katie Howson went to her personally to tell her about the mistreatment of children in the SO. Katie personally told me about it. Katie was RPFed for this but resurfaced a few months later and would not say a single word about it afterward.

MSH apparently did not like DM, but she was a diehard Scientologist and remained loyal to L Ron and to Scientology, despite the fact she apparently had not heard personally from L Ron in years, even through her trial.

"Her husband avoided being indicted but was extremely concerned that Mary Sue would betray him. One of his aides, David Mayo, was dispatched by Hubbard to suggest that Mary Sue might consider a divorce. According to Mayo:

She was really offended and very upset. I thought she was going to blow my head off. I went back several times later to make sure that she wasn't going to rat on him. That's what he was really worried about, that she would reveal during the case that she was only relaying his orders. She had covered up for him so much, and there had been so many opportunities for her to betray him, that she couldn't believe he would think that. She kept saying to me, 'What is he worried about?' I thought to myself, 'My God, I can't tell her.'"

"One of its principal figures was David Miscavige, a 21-year-old Messenger who had worked as a cameraman for Hubbard.[57] In May 1981, he met with Mary Sue to tell her that her position as Controller of the Guardian's Office was untenable.[54] She reacted angrily; in a 1992 trial in Canada, Miscavige told the court that she had called him "some pretty nasty names" and threatened him with a large ashtray held close to his face, but she had eventually agreed to step down.[58] She subsequently changed her mind, believing that she had been tricked, and wrote to her husband to complain but received no response. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue_Hubbard


The entire Wikipedia article is terrific, btw. MSH acted as a witness against Gerry Armstrong. She also filed a $5 million lawsuit against Ronald DeWolf. In the Gerry Armstrong case, the Justice Latey declared, "Mr Hubbard is a charlatan and worse, as are his wife, Mary Sue Hubbard, and the clique at the top privy to the cult's activities." She remained an active member of Scn at least into the 1990s. She just didn't like DM.

 

[programmer_guy]

I wonder if a contributing factor to Mary Sue being removed from the CoS was because she was beginning to wake up to Scientology being a scam.

I say that because of this story:
Jon Atack: Did Mary Sue Hubbard Doubt Scientology’s Key Experience?
https://tonyortega.org/2013/11/16/jon-atack-did-mary-sue-hubbard-doubt-scientologys-key-experience/

Anyone here that was close to Mary Sue just prior to her exit?

I had thought that the main reason MSH was removed was because of a coverup for the GO IRS scandal.

Maybe I am wrong?

 

[Type4_PTS]

I had thought that the main reason MSH was removed because of a coverup for the GO IRS scandal.
Maybe I am wrong?

I also thought this, and also DM wanting to remove anyone from a position where they could challenge his authority.

And it sounds like that IS what had happened.

I just was wondering if she did have real doubts about the tech (such as in that article from Jon Atack) and if that was a contributing factor.

 

[ThetanExterior]

This post is not an attempt to change the direction of this thread...or muddy the waters...or derail...

But, for myself, starting Scientology in 1972....upon reading, I believe, KSW on my first course....the Student Hat...in it LRH states: "Do not question how I rose above the bank."

Thru out the hundreds and hundreds of early and later Tapes....LRH boosts and tells of OT type stories about himself....

So, now, when I look at this topic...there must have been hundreds of SO staff and some Public that worked with LRH or were in close association with him....including his entire family...that should come clean. What did they know? What did they observe?

As far as these SO, in the Hole, I can't imagine they are sitting around for years doing nothing. As in a Communist Re-Education camp...I would imagine that they won't have much left of their own minds...or brains....and it is possible that their recollections of what did happen are manually being altered...on a daily basis.

I believe my mind is being altered...and or manipulated, daily....and I've been totally out for 18 years.

Some have fair better than others...

I'm not happy with this post, but will post it anyway.

Janis Gillham Grady worked closely with Hubbard for many years in the 1970s and in her second book she says she never met anyone with OT abilities, including Hubbard.

If you think your mind is being manipulated by scientologists then you must still believe they have special powers. Maybe you just need to get rid of that belief because there is no evidence to support it.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I believe my mind is being altered...and or manipulated, daily....and I've been totally out for 18 years.

Apart from the fact that there's no way anyone could be doing that (to you) there is also the question of why they would choose to focus on you anyway?

There are many, many people who are a very serious threat to the cult that they could focus their 'special powers' on (the special powers that we all know do not exist) ... so (no offense) but why would they choose you?

I say this not to upset you but to try and get you to rethink it because you've mentioned it quite a lot now over the years ... I sincerely hope you let yourself off the hook because it must be awful living with something like that in your mind each day.

I promise you ... nobody is messing with your mind.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

That about some person other than LRH wrote the "Pain and Sex" HCOB.
Sounds like a "shore story".
LRH wrote it.
( my knowingness tells me).

Finally, proof of OT! lol

hugs

 

[JustSheila]

I had thought that the main reason MSH was removed was because of a coverup for the GO IRS scandal.

Maybe I am wrong?

I also thought this, and also DM wanting to remove anyone from a position where they could challenge his authority.

And it sounds like that IS what had happened.

I just was wondering if she did have real doubts about the tech (such as in that article from Jon Atack) and if that was a contributing factor.

Yes, MSH as head of the GO claimed responsibility for the orders and covered for L Ron, rather than say she was following his orders.

I don't see a discrepancy between the articles and quotes in Wikipedia and what Tony Ortega covered, because Otto Roos was talking about MSH's early days in Scn. MSH apparently had doubts way back then, but over the years, was completely loyal to Scientology and L Ron and organized a lot of dirty GO operations, too. It didn't seem to me it mattered to her one way or the other whether Scientology was a scam. It was her life and she embraced it. According to Wikipedia, she never wanted to be removed from Controller, fought it heavily and still tried to run GO things afterward.

The judge I quoted was convinced MSH was as much a willing fraud and scammer as Hubbard. She may have realized it was a fraud years ago and didn't care, or she was possibly a bit off mentally by the time the FBI raided the complex.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Yes, MSH as head of the GO claimed responsibility for the orders and covered for L Ron, rather than say she was following his orders.

I don't see a discrepancy between the articles and quotes in Wikipedia and what Tony Ortega covered, because Otto Roos was talking about MSH's early days in Scn. MSH apparently had doubts way back then, but over the years, was completely loyal to Scientology and L Ron and organized a lot of dirty GO operations, too. It didn't seem to me it mattered to her one way or the other whether Scientology was a scam. It was her life and she embraced it. According to Wikipedia, she never wanted to be removed from Controller, fought it heavily and still tried to run GO things afterward.

The judge I quoted was convinced MSH was as much a willing fraud and scammer as Hubbard. She may have realized it was a fraud years ago and didn't care, or she was possibly a bit off mentally by the time the FBI raided the complex.

That all makes sense. Thank-you!