Metering & Needle Phenomena in Auditing

[Mark A. Baker]

Well, maybe you crap in your bathtub but that doesn't mean Zinj does.

Paul

I stand corrected.

Nonetheless, I fail to see any correlation between recent subjects & the variety of meter or needle phenomena. Neither frankly, do I see why these recent extraneous topics have been introduced on this thread, not that reason is a typical concomitant of posts made on the board.


Mark A. Baker

 

[knn]

3. This value in each case is a nice round number

Maybe Hubbard set the female/male average as "2"/"3".

By "average" I mean the *cough* 5-or-so PCs he probably tested, including himself and MSH.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Maybe Hubbard set the female/male average as "2"/"3".

By "average" I mean the *cough* 5-or-so PCs he probably tested, including himself and MSH.

I tried to figure out how he even came up with the idea in the first place as it is so ABSURD! I know he failed at science classes but I couldn't believe he was THAT bad.

Paul

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I tried to figure out how he even came up with the idea in the first place as it is so ABSURD! I know he failed at science classes but I couldn't believe he was THAT bad.

Paul

Another place in which we differ, Paul. I can. Easy. No sweat.

However, I suspect it stems, at least in part, from his own innate assumptions about "body mass".

Male = big burly = higher resistance.
Female = slight & delicate = lower resistance.

I've known many males, especially prevalent in my father's generation and before, assume that a woman was "delicate" simply as a result of her sex. Actual physical characteristics play no part in this "equation".

Judging by his comments & attitudes I think LRH suffered from this delusion. He was also prone to rash conclusions as well as making more of the "precision engineering" aspects of "his" tech than was warranted by the data.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Dulloldfart]

Another place in which we differ, Paul. I can. Easy. No sweat.

However, I suspect it stems, at least in part, from his own innate assumptions about "body mass".

Male = big burly = higher resistance.
Female = slight & delicate = lower resistance.

Yeah, that's fairly obvious, but there are big burly women and small delicate men, so that won't fly at all. Big delicate men too, for that matter.

What else you got?

Paul

 

[Mark A. Baker]

What else you got?

Paul

Not much. Just those parts of the prior post you didn't choose to quote.

Mostly I'm not too interested in second guessing LRH. Mostly I think that is a "chump's game". When something he's said made sense or was in some way useful it was of interest to me. When it didn't, I wasn't too concerned about forcing it to fit.

I don't see him as having been "scientific" in his thinking. Quite the contrary. He always seemed to me to come at questions from a more emotional and non-rational mindset. I think that was in large part what made him effective as a public speaker. I'm of the opinion, that people respond much better to appeals to emotion than appeals to reason. He appears to me to have been personally quite clever, but not especially systematic in his thought processes. But then I never met him.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Veda]

I stand corrected.

Nonetheless, I fail to see any correlation between recent subjects & the variety of meter or needle phenomena. Neither frankly, do I see why these recent extraneous topics have been introduced on this thread, not that reason is a typical concomitant of posts made on the board.


Mark A. Baker

How do you handle people who are so rarely rational?

Put differently, how would a Scientologist, such as yourself, handle ESMB?

 

[lionheart]

I stand corrected.

Nonetheless, I fail to see any correlation between recent subjects & the variety of meter or needle phenomena. Neither frankly, do I see why these recent extraneous topics have been introduced on this thread, not that reason is a typical concomitant of posts made on the board.


Mark A. Baker

You could get this thread back on-topic by answering the questions you left hanging, unanswered on the other e-meter thread. My unanswered questions and your answers would be directly on this topic!

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=233011&postcount=280
where you said:
"
<snip>
Nonetheless, with regard to date/locate I take my data from the pc. They don't typically have difficulty with answering up. If necessary I will 2wc concerning what "time" & "place" may represent to the pc. The meter is at most a secondary tool in the process.

I see the purpose of d/l as helping the pc to establish the context of whatever "charge" is currently being addressed. Hence the important thing is for the pc to establish for himself what that context appears to be.

I'm there to provide assistance to the pc in identifying & running "charge". The meter is there to assist me.


Mark A. Baker"

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=233183&postcount=294
where I asked:
"Thanks. I have no difficulty in grasping the idea that the PC is senior to the meter. I am simply asking you how you apply that. What's wrong with that?

Asking a further question does not imply lack of comprehension of earlier answers.

<snip>

On dating - you take the data from the PC - ok, so let me clarify absolutely, you are saying you don't use meter reads to help date an incident? You just talk to the PC and ask him for the date?

How exactly is the meter used as a "secondary tool"? How exactly does it "assist" you?

These further questions do not mean you have to accuse me of not understanding what you have just said above. But what you said left some unanswered points, so I am asking for clarification."

Ignoring questions and starting a new thread, doesn't alter the fact that you didn't answer the questions.

If you explain in particular detail, how exactly you use the meter as a "secondary tool" and how it "assists" you, would get this thread back on topic. You can, of course, leave these questions unaswered again. In which case, I suppose readers will fill in their own assumptions of the relevance that you give in your sessions to the e-meter.

 

[Ralph Hilton]

Regarding dating I consider the meter secondary in that one first of all asks the PC for the date and only use the meter when the PC cannot answer.
The full LRH explanation is a bit long to post here - it is in HCOB 4 August 1963 in the section on meter dependence. To summarize - the auditor works toward weaning the PC of dependence on the E-meter.

 

[Ralph Hilton]

However, I suspect it stems, at least in part, from his own innate assumptions about "body mass".
Male = big burly = higher resistance.
Female = slight & delicate = lower resistance.
Mark A. Baker

Its actually upside down to what I observe - slight and delicate = narrower path for electrical flow = lower conductance = higher resistance.
The people I see most with a low TA are big men with big hands.

 

[Veda]

Regarding dating I consider the meter secondary in that one first of all asks the PC for the date and only use the meter when the PC cannot answer.
The full LRH explanation is a bit long to post here - it is in HCOB 4 August 1963 in the section on meter dependence. To summarize - the auditor works toward weaning the PC of dependence on the E-meter.

1963? As you undoubtedly know, some things were revised a few years later.

It's not possible to do CC - OT 3, or NOTs, without practicing "meter dependence."

"See your materials."

 

[Zinjifar]

Ron may have been going on the basis of the belief in the 'extra fat layer' in wymens, which would have been nonsense, since the conductive layer is above that, or, more likely, He was just pulling the normal bias and misconception out of His ass.

Zinj

 

[Vinaire]

Ron may have been going on the basis of the belief in the 'extra fat layer' in wymens, which would have been nonsense, since the conductive layer is above that, or, more likely, He was just pulling the normal bias and misconception out of His ass.

Zinj

Doesn't most of the conductance occur through nerves? Nerves carry body's electrical impulses anyway.

.

 

[Zinjifar]

Doesn't most of the conductance occur through nerves? Nerves carry body's electrical impulses anyway.

.

No to both.

nerves 'transmit' signals, they're not like 'wires'. Individual nerve cells when stimulated by a *chemical* stimulus trigger the next nerve cell's 'receptors' to retransmit the stimulus. There is an 'electrical' element to it which can be detected, but, it's not the electricity that's being 'conducted'.

That's why human nerves transmit signals in 'feet per second' instead of the speed of light.

You can use an electric 'shock' to *force* a nerve to transmit its chemical signal, which is why you can get a disembodied frog leg to 'jump', but, electricity is not the actual signal.

Zinj

 

[knn]

Its actually upside down to what I observe - slight and delicate = narrower path for electrical flow = lower conductance = higher resistance.
The people I see most with a low TA are big men with big hands.

Wait a sec. Are you saying that if there should be a different basic TA for men and women, then it should be something like 2.0 for men and 3.0 for women?

 

[nw2394]

Wait a sec. Are you saying that if there should be a different basic TA for men and women, then it should be something like 2.0 for men and 3.0 for women?

The whole business of 2.0/3.0 being the female/male "clear" read or whatever it was called was something of an arbitrary.

I think Ralph is saying exactly what he said - which you seem to have understood.

Nick

 

[Mark A. Baker]

No to both.

nerves 'transmit' signals, they're not like 'wires'.

That is certainly true from the perspective of cellular function. In the organization of the body cells respond principally to chemical ions which are in turn mediated by the electrochemical activity of nerves. However, nerves also mediate voltage potentials and as such serve can serve very much like a "wire". The "speed" of the activity is more than sufficient for purposes of metered auditing. The overall effect is that the meter winds up being to some degree a measure of averaged rapid fluctuations in the voltage potential of the neural network which constitutes the brain.

Here are some prior posts I made which were originated by a friend of mine who is also an occasional participant on ESMB. He's something of an expert on electrical engineering & chemical ions. He explains the effect in greater detail.


http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=104779&postcount=17
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=104780&postcount=18


Mark A. Baker

 

[Ralph Hilton]

I haven't seen any indication that the TA of men and women are different due to gender. I'd also say that there is no such thing as a universal basic TA - it depends considerably on the size of someone's hands.
Most of the conductance of the human body is through saline solution.

 

[Zinjifar]

That is certainly true from the perspective of cellular function. In the organization of the body cells respond principally to chemical ions which are in turn mediated by the electrochemical activity of nerves. However, nerves also mediate voltage potentials and as such serve can serve very much like a "wire". The "speed" of the activity is more than sufficient for purposes of metered auditing. The overall effect is that the meter winds up being to some degree a measure of averaged rapid fluctuations in the voltage potential of the neural network which constitutes the brain.

Here are some prior posts I made which were originated by a friend of mine who is also an occasional participant on ESMB. He's something of an expert on electrical engineering & chemical ions. He explains the effect in greater detail.


http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=104779&postcount=17
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=104780&postcount=18


Mark A. Baker

OK, I read them. Both of them. Are you seriously saying that you consider those treatises more than hornswagglerish eyewash?

That the 'current' of the e-meter actually travels over the *nerves*?

Actually, I've heard this before; may have read them on ACT possibly, but, they do reflect a common 'theory' in the FZ and possibly Scientology itself, but, it has nothing to do with how GSR functions.

Zinj

 

[Vinaire]

For thoughts to be reflected in meter reads, a significant portion of electrical flow needs to have been routed through the nerves.

.