programmer_guy
True Ex-Scientologist
What education are you talking about? What college degree did he get?
Please elaborate.
Claire's theory on where L Ron Hubbard truly went wrong
- Thread starter Voltaire's Child
- Start date
What education are you talking about? What college degree did he get?
Please elaborate.
On the other hand, there is equally compelling evidence in the Freezone and among the Independents that PCs and pre-OTs who were totally stalled or f*cked up in and by the Co$ have been rehabbed and are again making progress up the bridge outside of the Co$.
This seems to indicate that when some parts of "the body of work" are applied in certain ways, that people have actually gotten the results they expected and wanted.
I think basing a global conclusion on the "evidence" found on one single Internet board is very short-sighted. ESMB is a little village in a big big world. I doubt "the Final Answer" will be found here, but perhaps you could be more specific about what the "compelling evidence" you refer to actually is....?
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
Voltaire's Child said:
We also do not know much about his family other than what his parents did for a living at one point in their lives and that Hubbard did not missed them when they died.
Somebody screwed him up pretty good during his childhood, few people carry their childhood fantasies and delusion into adulthood with them, Hubbard carried them right to his grave, and few people hate children as much as Hubbard did, he didn't even like animals. He was not capable of unconditional love, anyone who received anything from Hubbard had to earn it and they allows paid too much for it.
I think this thread may have a lot of validity to it
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16702
It would explain his hatred of children.
AnonKat
Crusader
Don't be discouraged, your input is valuable
Infinite
Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
DOX PLOX
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
I'd like to know what "making progress up the bridge" actually means, since Scientology was never intended to be anything more that a fantasy role playing game.Atalantan said:
Does "making progress up the bridge" mean they are that much closer to full blown insanity?
For example, this recently from Steve Hall:
http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/02/14/the-hardest-working-man-in-the-independent-movement/
There are other posts on Marty's blog and other blogs, from people who have had similar positive experiences outside after having been stalled for many years in the Co$.
lkwdblds
Crusader
Nice post with many good points. However, I think your paragraph on his failure to create "sub -heroes" needs to be tweeked a bit. He did inadvertently create lots of "sub heroes". Prime examples are John Mac Master, Yvonne Jentzsch and Otto Roos. Other earlier sub heroes were the Kemps, Ray and Pam and the Halperns, who developed the TR's not to mention Dr. Winter, who wrote the forward to his original Dianetics book, John Campbell his publisher and Volney Matheison who developed the E-Meter. There is a list of many others as well. Mary Sue Hubbard, herself, was a created sub hero.
He had a line of succession established. Mary Sue Hubbard could have run the organizations and he hand picked David Mayo to be Senior C/S International and establish his own corporation, separate from C of S, so that he could run the tech division without being corrupted by other parts of the church. In the 50's he was grooming L Ron Hubbard, Jr. (Nibs) to be his heir apparent and in the 70's he was hoping that Quentin might assume that role. Diana figured as well in his line of succession. Perhaps for several years, Ken Urquhart may have figured into his succession plans as might have Captain Bill Robertson.
At the end of his life, he was off the major communication lines of his church and the communications into him were controlled by you know who. By this time his physical and mental capacities were seriously impaired and MSH and Mayo were now taboo as far as he was concerned.
In a last gasp effort to provide some succession, he named two relative nobodies, Pat and Annie Broeker as his successors. These people were loyal to him and took care of his "household" type of activities such as his housing, his food and his personal care. They had no real talents either in "Tech" nor "admin" but they were the only ones whom he had seen in his last years so he passed on the baton to them in a last ditch effort to preserve his legacy. Of course, DM was able to take them down with ease just a short time later.
What a sad and pathetic ending for a once "larger than life" and vibrant man. All he could do at the end was promote himself to "Admiral" and sail off into the Galaxy, leaving behind two "loyal officers", who were just ordinary people with no special skills, to run his empire.
Lakey
For you, it would mean whatever it means to you.
For them, it means they feel they are again getting what they came into scientology to get, whereas they were not getting it in the Co$ environment.
If you want to know what that might be, get yourself a copy of an older Grade Chart and look it over in some detail.
Beyond that, why not ask them yourself? I could be telling you any manner of lies and you would have no way of knowing, right?
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." It takes more than good intentions to get anywhere.
As Korzybski said, "The map is not the territory."
Just ask the people who were in the Donner party in 1846:
DONNER PASS
"The pass received its name, however, from another group of California-bound emigrants. In early November 1846, the Donner Party found the route blocked by snow and was forced to spend the winter on the eastern side of the mountains. Of the 81 emigrants, only 45 survived to reach California;[2] some of them are alleged to have resorted to cannibalism to survive."
Wkipedia.
But good intentions are important, too. The Grade Chart is a record after-the-fact. I think there are few who would argue that ARC Straighwire, the Grades 0-IV, Dianetics, Power and Power-plus, Clear, and OT1 and OTII are boob-trapped and misleading. There are too many who have done them and gone just where they were led to believe they would go, at least back in the 1960s and 1970s. Beyond those the picture seems to be more murky.
That said, I always saw scientology as a process, not as a fixed map leading to a fixed destination.
For one thing, each person is an individual and becomes more individual as s/he goes along applying the methodology.
"To tell you something you don't already know is hard
for in your giant laughter strides open
and the road you carry you lay before you."
You end up where you've always been, only this time you are fully aware and know it. And can then move on or be anywhere you want to be, from then on, forever.
And that's a unique and individual "place" for each person.
Or as the Grateful Dead had it, "And if you go, no-one may follow, that path is for your steps alone."
That's why it is silly to talk about "double-blind studies" and all that claptrap that pertains to MEST. It's not principally about MEST.
I don't think scientology or Hubbard "went wrong" at all.
In my opinion, scientology does exactly what Hubbard intended it to do:
it brought power and wealth to Hubbard.
He created a "game" that was intended and designed to get people to "flow power" to him in the form of adulation, energy, money. They did. They still do.
Whether or not along the way anyone got better or had their life improved, or their life ruined, is irrelevant to the actual purpose of scientology. There are people who swear that scientology saved them. There are others who testify that it ruined them.
Regardless, Hubbard got what HE wanted and that's what it was all about -- it really had little or nothing to do with YOU, the pawns (the "pieces" as he called them) of the game.
In my opinion, scientology does exactly what Hubbard intended it to do:
it brought power and wealth to Hubbard.
He created a "game" that was intended and designed to get people to "flow power" to him in the form of adulation, energy, money. They did. They still do.
Whether or not along the way anyone got better or had their life improved, or their life ruined, is irrelevant to the actual purpose of scientology. There are people who swear that scientology saved them. There are others who testify that it ruined them.
Regardless, Hubbard got what HE wanted and that's what it was all about -- it really had little or nothing to do with YOU, the pawns (the "pieces" as he called them) of the game.
I'm not discouraged at all. It's just that HH decided what there was for him in Scio - i.e. nothing at all - then he found that and now he complains about it. He confirms exactly what I said in my first post on this thread.
RogerB
Crusader
Errr, ummm, the record shows he actually destroyed, abused and mis-used all those who were or might have been "sub-heroes" and/or who supported and massively contributed to him to the extent that they might have had recognition as heroes.
Fact is, he simply couldn't have an other "stars" about than him. Ever noticed how he standardly, always put down and invalidated others in power positions and/or other subjects outside of $cn?
You can also see that he factually, just really couldn't "fit in anywhere" . . . hence his dropping out of college and his chronic loner, I'll do it my way behavior. Though he did "join" institutions that would give him some kind of credibility though actually participate.
Rog
Freeminds
Bitter defrocked apostate
I was interested to discover that poor old Ron actually dropped out of school twice.
In October 1947, Ron had discovered he would get $90 a month subsistence from the Veterans Administration if he enrolled at college. He signed up at the Geller Theater Workshop, but had dropped out by November 14th.
He claimed subsistence until the end of November, though... and got caught out. He was presented with a bill for repayment as a result.
This may be the origin of Freeloader Debt! Needless to say, he didn't pay the money back.
In October 1947, Ron had discovered he would get $90 a month subsistence from the Veterans Administration if he enrolled at college. He signed up at the Geller Theater Workshop, but had dropped out by November 14th.
He claimed subsistence until the end of November, though... and got caught out. He was presented with a bill for repayment as a result.
This may be the origin of Freeloader Debt! Needless to say, he didn't pay the money back.
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
When I say "went wrong", I mean what is not right with it and how did he bring about the mess we see now and have seen for many years. It is a mess.
Sindy
Crusader
Captain Koolaid
Patron Meritorious
When Hubbard started his Dianetics foundation he was already a lowlife. A conman, thief, compulsive liar, racist, wifebeater. Obsessed with the idea to smash his name into history, obsessed with making money, and he already displayed sociopathic tendencies in his attempt to destroy people who he perceived as obstacles for his goals. His effort to libel people as communists during the McCarthy era was his attempt to "ruin them utterly". He even tried to terrorize Sara Northrup into committing suicide, because he believed that a divorce would "harm his reputation". Hubbard had no shred of altruism. It is possible that he became so enmeshed in his lies that he became convinced that he was actually helping people, after all he also demanded the release of his naval service record and screamed bloody murder when he discovered that the navy had "stolen" his credentials.
http://www.xenu.net/archive/FBI/fbi-103.html
http://www.xenu.net/archive/FBI/fbi-103.html
Scientology "went off the rails" at first when Hubbard died and was no longer there to control it, and later when modern communications technology rose to its current level (thanks mostly to the internet) and the real truth about scientology and Hubbard -- which could no longer be hidden and suppressed -- became widely known.
This made it possible for all the "broken pieces" to share their stories and find out they were not alone, that instead of personally "failing" as they'd been led to believe, they had been used, abused, misled and taken advantage of, and that NO ONE had actually achieved what Hubbard had promised was possible with scientology.
It became widely known that the CLAIMS that there were millions and millions of members, that it was the fastest growing religion on the planet, that people were flooding into the organizations (just not YOUR org) and making enormous and amazing gains (just not YOU or anyone you know) were false.
We will be "picking up the pieces" for quite some time because there are still a lot of people out there in the world who haven't yet seen the truth about Hubbard and scientology -- either because they are still isolated and haven't yet seen the facts, OR because they are still so much "under the influence" of Hubbard's spell that they refuse to believe the truth.
Hubbard wasn't trying to save the world with scientology; he was trying to enrich himself, and he did. Some people are still trying to preserve and continue to enrich his memory.
That some people got "benefits" from scientology, and that some people hope to use what they learned in the future to benefit themselves, or others, is a separate issue.
Where that becomes an IMPORTANT issue, is that scientology, as a philosophy and technology, is booby trapped with Hubbard's not-so-obvious control mechanisms, and can be "dangerous" on many levels; therefore, it makes sense that some people (like me, for example) would want to warn others about it's use and would want to discourage people from promoting its use.
I believe that when it comes to the practice of scientology, the risks to one's emotional/mental health outweigh the benefits. All I have to do to be convinced of that, is to look at the behavior of scientologists -- those I have known personally, and those I know vicariously through their stories.
Of course, you all can do your own speculating as to what made them (or you) behave that way. To each his own.
SchwimmelPuckel
Genuine Meatball
Hmm.. As it happens I don't think we're in any kind of disagreement.. I just feel a need to ponder about just what 'off the rails' means.
To me, when I joined the Sinister Scam Cult of Scientology, it was about Dianetics, which was about making my mind better. It was a psychotherapy and a training regime... Nothing to do with religion either, but that's beside the point in this. The idea was to make the mind better. That was 'on the rails', so to speak.
As an additional benefit, when the mind got better, you became better at being here, in this world, in life. More intelligent, more rational, more just. And admirable human being.. So I expected scientologists to be the ones that could create a better society. No crime and insanity and all that jazz.. They wouldn't be susceptible to dictators or tyrants for instance.
Now with these expectations of mine, Scientology was 'off the rails' years before I joined. I discovered that when I joined the Guardian's Office..
Way off the rails!
Dianetics didn't make people saner or more intelligent. I observed quite the opposite to be the case. The Guardian's Office was a 'reality factor' as to what Scientology's idea of a just society was. An orwellian nightmare!
Gawd! What a nauseating fiasco Scientology is!!!
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