Death -- and life

[Lurker5]

Condolences, PeteyC.

 

[Kutta]

Thank you for your post Petey. I honestly don't know where I am at this point in relation to loved ones who are dying. A week ago I learnt that my younger sister has pancreatic and liver cancer. We don't know how this is going to pan out, but from all accounts she has not got long. I'm fearful of the end stages. I'm trying to keep on top of the stress. I shall be there for her and hope I can be of some use.

We are talking and can do easily about death and dying.

She is virtually pain free at the moment as she is on morphine and can have as much of it as she needs.

I have no concerns about the possibility of after life, and nor does she. It's the here and now and however long she is with us that weighs on me. How I can ease things for her and for her daughter and grandchildren.

It has put a new perspective on my own recent drama with cancer. That drama is over.

 

[Smilla]

Sending lots of love to everyone on this thread.

 

[Petey C]

Thank you for your post Petey. I honestly don't know where I am at this point in relation to loved ones who are dying. A week ago I learnt that my younger sister has pancreatic and liver cancer. We don't know how this is going to pan out, but from all accounts she has not got long. I'm fearful of the end stages. I'm trying to keep on top of the stress. I shall be there for her and hope I can be of some use.

We are talking and can do easily about death and dying.

She is virtually pain free at the moment as she is on morphine and can have as much of it as she needs.

I have no concerns about the possibility of after life, and nor does she. It's the here and now and however long she is with us that weighs on me. How I can ease things for her and for her daughter and grandchildren.

It has put a new perspective on my own recent drama with cancer. That drama is over.

While I'm glad to hear your own drama is over, I'm sad to hear about your sister. The friend who moved in with us after his diagnosis had the same cancer ... it's an ugly one. I hope that her remaining time will be easy.

Hugs.

 

[Free to shine]

I do.

This was the most beautiful and precious thing about working with the elderly. It is not just your honesty, Petey, but theirs. There are no secrets, no false pretenses. It is nice when someone can become old enough and wise enough to reach that higher state, but I think even those who die more suddenly often reach that state. We hear of "near death" situations where one's entire life flashes in an instant. I think many that die suddenly can also have that moment where all becomes clear and all is complete for them - no secrets, and hopefully, all is also peaceful and there is certainty of a better place.

I posted once about a friend of mine and no way can I find that post!

It was a lady I met in the local cafe, we began a friendship and for the next year I helped her die. She had a muscle wasting disease that left her only able to walk a few steps at a time and was incredibly independent and somewhat testy with those who tried to help her or treat her differently. Over that year we would have coffee or lunch, almost every day in the last month, and she would discuss everything under the sun and moon with a startling and laser like insight.

She told me of her amazing life, something one wouldn't know from looking at her, she got things off her chest that she had told no-one, and she told me she was grateful that I treated her as normal. Goodness me, she certainly was! The cafe staff would make her special, easily managed lunches and although people were a bit wary of her sharp tongue, she was invisibly supported by the local community as well.

Towards the end she discussed all aspects of death with me, and life. Some days it was really hard and the last thing I wanted to do. Yet somehow she struggled to that cafe, I know she felt her life depended on being able to get out once a day, and it was not something I could turn my back on.

The last time I saw her she said "I am going to walk away and not look back" and I knew that was it. She did walk away, slowly, one agonised step at a time but with great dignity .... she also looked back .... and I said goodbye to her silently in my head. She passed away that night peacefully. I was not invited to her funeral as no-one in her family knew of our connection, but that was ok, it was between us.

Whenever I think of that marvellous lady my heart swells with gratitude for all she taught me and how the things we discussed helped me put my own life in perspective. I know she would be chuffed that I mention her here.

To you my friend.

 

[Lermanet_com]

"Soul travelers guide to Death, Dying and the Other Side" by Robert Moss


"Moss reminds us that by our night dreaming and waking
dreams we prepare for the great journey to the world beyond
the mists the Celts called the Blesed Isles. Our dreams are
the measure of what we aspire to, and it is in this life, through
practicing our imagination, that we can draw our roadmap
and our destination. For a better death and life beyond death
-- but also for a better life in the world of the living --do not
miss this extraordinary book from a true Western Master"
Catherine Shainberg

In my own dreams I was once taken to the Blessed Isles...they are there...

arnie lerma

 

[auntpat]

I have really been thinking about life and death, lately. On August 14th I celebrated my 78th birthday, I have lived longer than anyone in my family. In the past year I have had lung cancer and a stroke. my biggest loss was the sight in my right eye. My other eye has very poor vision and I am using a magnifying glass to do any reading, The doctors say I will not get my vision back, but you know me...I believe in miracles.

Living in Senor Housing you experience death of friends often. Most of the people who have died were welcoming it. Pain and loss of abilities prepares them for the relief of getting out of that body. So I could not mourn their death but instead celebrate their freedom.

I am not anxious for death but I am ready for it. I hope my friends will celebrate my life and my freedom and be grateful to have known me,

Love and Light,
Aunt Pat

 

[phenomanon]

I have really been thinking about life and death, lately. On August 14th I celebrated my 78th birthday, I have lived longer than anyone in my family. In the past year I have had lung cancer and a stroke. my biggest loss was the sight in my right eye. My other eye has very poor vision and I am using a magnifying glass to do any reading, The doctors say I will not get my vision back, but you know me...I believe in miracles.

Living in Senor Housing you experience death of friends often. Most of the people who have died were welcoming it. Pain and loss of abilities prepares them for the relief of getting out of that body. So I could not mourn their death but instead celebrate their freedom.

I am not anxious for death but I am ready for it. I hope my friends will celebrate my life and my freedom and be grateful to have known me,

Love and Light,
Aunt Pat

Nice post.

I am in my 80s, and the majority of my friends are dead.

There must be something to this Dianetic stuff. I am " healthy as a horse", and feel great most of the time.

However, every morning when I wake up, I think " O here I am alive still". LOL.

I think of death as a great adventure and I do not dread it inthe least.

phenomanon

 

[Auditor's Toad]

I have really been thinking about life and death, lately. On August 14th I celebrated my 78th birthday, I have lived longer than anyone in my family. In the past year I have had lung cancer and a stroke. my biggest loss was the sight in my right eye. My other eye has very poor vision and I am using a magnifying glass to do any reading, The doctors say I will not get my vision back, but you know me...I believe in miracles.

Living in Senor Housing you experience death of friends often. Most of the people who have died were welcoming it. Pain and loss of abilities prepares them for the relief of getting out of that body. So I could not mourn their death but instead celebrate their freedom.

I am not anxious for death but I am ready for it. I hope my friends will celebrate my life and my freedom and be grateful to have known me,

Love and Light,
Aunt Pat

That was so very beautiful !

As we get older we have all the memories of life - and we watch our friends pass away...and we feel our own physical powers erode. Like right now, I got to stop typing my old fingers are aching & need a rest - LOL !

Sometimes I wonder.. have I really become more mellow in my old age ot is it just those around me have decided to just humor me.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

I’ve lost both pairs of Grandparents and 2 of the four I was close to and 1, my Paternal Grandfather, I was closer to than my Father.

I’ve lost my Mother and Father, and a dear, dear Brother whose passing I attended. I also attended the passing of my Father-in-Law…we were as Father and Son and very close.

My oldest (still living) Brother’s first born and only Son…a fine, handsome, brilliant young man (he was beating me regularly at Chess when he was 10 and I was in college and no slouch) that had recently been awarded a full academic scholarship at a Major University died 2 weeks after High School Graduation. He died saving the life of his best friend.

I have also lost three very dear friends and 25 Aunts and Uncles and 7 first cousins (I come from big families).

I’ve also stepped part way through the “Death’s Doorway” a couple of times…I’m still trying to “come to terms” with what “happened” and, therefore, shall refrain from waxing philosophic about it.

I don’t pretend to know all about Death, After Life or Life and, quite honestly at this stage of my Life, I find anyone that says that they do to be beyond my comprehension and trust.

I also attended the Births of my Children. IMHO without knowing, experiencing and “walking the walk” of the run-up to someone "Living" and someone having "Lived" as a compassionate, constant, come what may care giver companion, “Living” can become disjoined and unrelated to “Life”…it can become here and there “encounters”, off and on “interactions”, hit and miss “getting thru 'life'”.

Personally, and it’s quite possible I am completely delusional, I hold all “Life” to be “Eternal”; that there is some “Spark” within me and thee that’s been, is now and is forever gonna be. I think that just as everyone’s experiences in Living are different, so are everyone’s Death and what comes afterwards.

To me, and please remember it’s quite possible I am completely delusional, Life and Living…every breath taken…is a Gift. I don’t Why, Whence or from Whom this Gift has come.

Which brings me back to my Nephew. Due to my Post I was able to finagle the Leave time to attend his Funeral in a small country church. The whole town turned out. My Brother’s Heart was torn to pieces. I’ve never seen anything so heartrending sad in my life.

I could feel my Nephew in the room…honest to God. He had risked all and given his Life so that his best friend would continue Living and he was at Peace. His Best Friend and Family were there in the Front Pew with my Brother, his Wife the Mother of my Nephew and their other Children. A thunderstorm passed over and rainbow light cast trough the Sanctuary on them.

My Nephew was with me all the way home. He could sense what I held but could not yet see deep within my Heart...He was beckoning me...He was beseeching me.

Not long afterwards I left the SO to save the lives of my Children.

None of Us will ever know the full fractal fulfillment of our having been Born to, Lived or Left this Life.

May Peace Be With You And Yours, Petey C.

May Peace Be With All Y’all.

Face

 

[Petey C]

Aunt Pat, Pheno, Face -- great posts.

I've been reading Martha Nussbaum, a book about freedom of religion in contemporary society. She makes the point that what is real (death in life) has become so unreal -- a word she notes as being constantly used in narratives about death and dying. Her point is that we are all so remote from death these days, i.e. the witnessing of death, that the most real part of life (apart from living) has now become surreal/unreal. It's an interesting commentary.

For me, I'm not as afraid of death any more, having seen it so close up. That said, I am terrified of losing the people I love. I don't know how Face has coped with all those deaths of his near and dear. But the brief flash of experience I had last month has made me feel so sorrowful for people who survive natural disasters such as the Fukushima nuclear disaster and the tsunami, and who lose everyone in their families. I can only begin to imagine what they must be going through. Not to mention the thousands of people who lose their families in war.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

<snip>

But the brief flash of experience I had last month has made me feel so sorrowful for people who survive natural disasters such as the Fukushima nuclear disaster and the tsunami, and who lose everyone in their families. I can only begin to imagine what they must be going through. Not to mention the thousands of people who lose their families in war.

WOW...me too.

 

[GreyLensman]

The opportunity to prepare oneself emotionally for the loss of a loved one truly does help greatly. But there are times when even when one sees it coming, one knows that the person is going to pass away soon, it can still really hit the person much harder than he or she may have anticipated.

I personally think one of the things that helps is as much communication and visits with the loved one while they are still with us as is possible. I think the talks and contact fill a need for both people and that this tends to help the surviving friends and family deal with the deaths when they occur.

The biggest regret is that which you did not say to that person who is no longer present. You cannot be sure they understood how much they are loved and missed.

 

[Kutta]

Following my earlier post, quoted below:

My sister died on 6 September. It was so quick - she was diagnosed on 8 August.
I was with her for the last 3 days.

I don't have anything philosophical to say about death and dying at this time. I'm still in a very sad space, and haven't felt able to post about it until today. I have felt angry at times that she had to go when she had so much to live for. She had just had her 65th birthday on 9 August. It seems too cruel.

My perception has shifted a little since I read in our newspaper this morning that a young man was killed at a railway crossing, and I have thought too about Karen losing her too young son. I can't imagine how a parent or child or sibling would ever get over that. I'm going to try to remember the many good times and be thankful for those.

The last days were a nightmare. Though I wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere else, it is horrible to watch your sister go through the process of dying, the shutting down of the body.

She was pain free throughout, and that was wonderful, and her daughter, grand-daughter, me, and 3 of her dearest friends were with her at the end. We were reassuring her and loving her till her last breath. We don't know if she was aware of that, although it is said that hearing is the last sense to go.



QUOTE=Kutta;718209]Thank you for your post Petey. I honestly don't know where I am at this point in relation to loved ones who are dying. A week ago I learnt that my younger sister has pancreatic and liver cancer. We don't know how this is going to pan out, but from all accounts she has not got long. I'm fearful of the end stages. I'm trying to keep on top of the stress. I shall be there for her and hope I can be of some use.

We are talking and can do easily about death and dying.

She is virtually pain free at the moment as she is on morphine and can have as much of it as she needs.

I have no concerns about the possibility of after life, and nor does she. It's the here and now and however long she is with us that weighs on me. How I can ease things for her and for her daughter and grandchildren.

It has put a new perspective on my own recent drama with cancer. That drama is over.[/QUOTE]

 

[Free to shine]

Following my earlier post, quoted below:

My sister died on 6 September. It was so quick - she was diagnosed on 8 August.
I was with her for the last 3 days.

I don't have anything philosophical to say about death and dying at this time. I'm still in a very sad space, and haven't felt able to post about it until today. I have felt angry at times that she had to go when she had so much to live for. She had just had her 65th birthday on 9 August. It seems too cruel.

My perception has shifted a little since I read in our newspaper this morning that a young man was killed at a railway crossing, and I have thought too about Karen losing her too young son. I can't imagine how a parent or child or sibling would ever get over that. I'm going to try to remember the many good times and be thankful for those.

The last days were a nightmare. Though I wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere else, it is horrible to watch your sister go through the process of dying, the shutting down of the body.

She was pain free throughout, and that was wonderful, and her daughter, grand-daughter, me, and 3 of her dearest friends were with her at the end. We were reassuring her and loving her till her last breath. We don't know if she was aware of that, although it is said that hearing is the last sense to go.



QUOTE=Kutta;718209]Thank you for your post Petey. I honestly don't know where I am at this point in relation to loved ones who are dying. A week ago I learnt that my younger sister has pancreatic and liver cancer. We don't know how this is going to pan out, but from all accounts she has not got long. I'm fearful of the end stages. I'm trying to keep on top of the stress. I shall be there for her and hope I can be of some use.

We are talking and can do easily about death and dying.

She is virtually pain free at the moment as she is on morphine and can have as much of it as she needs.

I have no concerns about the possibility of after life, and nor does she. It's the here and now and however long she is with us that weighs on me. How I can ease things for her and for her daughter and grandchildren.

It has put a new perspective on my own recent drama with cancer. That drama is over.

There are no words.

 

[The_Fixer]

My condolences Kutta.

 

[Gib]

The biggest regret is that which you did not say to that person who is no longer present. You cannot be sure they understood how much they are loved and missed.

I think by the fact that one was one's friend and always willing to talk to each other says it all. I do not think one need regret saying - not something.

I lost a friend just this past month. I did not know of it till 2 weeks ago. I will miss my friend. We were friends and talked when we saw each other which was once a month, and we were happy to talk to each other. He was a good Joe. He knew about how I felt for him, as I talked with him, and vice versa. Yes, I will miss my friend.

 

[degraded being]

Nice post.

I am in my 80s, and the majority of my friends are dead.

There must be something to this Dianetic stuff. I am " healthy as a horse", and feel great most of the time.

However, every morning when I wake up, I think " O here I am alive still". LOL.

I think of death as a great adventure and I do not dread it inthe least.

phenomanon

"O here I am alive still".

I would like to wake up with that thought every morning, but without the "still". However, the "still" part is pretty good too....depending on context.

 

[degraded being]

.

.
I feel pretty much the same as the OP. I get what she (I think it's "she" , is saying about having time to mentally prepare when someone (usually older people) are known to be likely to die in the next ..? months. I get what she says about experiencing whatever pain there is too, and not necessarily wanting to have counselling for it, but the likelihood that counselling might seem more attractive for sudden death of younger ones etc.

On the subject of counselling itself though, I get the reaction to the word, but in my experience and observation "counselling" in reality is really not anything like the word implies inasmuch as there is often no intention to give any advice (unless it is specifically asked for). I think I have seen people who stuck it out through unpleasant experiences which made quality of life that much less than it could have been for quite a long time and any time they thought about particular people/situations. These were not actually in relation to death, but death could do that to some people. So, just to try and stay coherent here, I do think that it can be very good for people to experience things without "help" from a counsellor. At other times and/or for other people, a bit of "counselling" would save a lot of pain/distress/dread, etc.....Sometimes the stoic attitude really is just perpetuating a lower quality of life for false emotional arguments or misguided ego...or something. It might be time to get common agreement on a more accurate term than "counselling".

I also think that the talking with friends/family that takes place over the months when someone is expected to die is actually "counselling" but of course, the word looks clumsy and inappropriate there.
It does show how the word is a bit awkward and outdated IMO.

 

[What's It All About]

In the past month I've experienced the deaths of two people I have been close to. This is not a plea for sympathy (please don't give me any, I've had plenty) but just to set the context. Both were irreplaceable and I'd known one all my life and the other for all my adult life. Both were foreseen, to a greater or lesser extent. Both came as a complete cut-you-off-at-the-knees shock. I was there at the death of one, and missed the other by moments. One remained lucid to the last day; the other was effectively in some largely unaware state (I think).

So for most of this year I've been thinking about and dealing with impending death. Several things amaze me. One is that though the spirit/soul/being/whatever wants to get free of the failing body, what the witness sees is a terrifying struggle. Another is that western culture really has no ritual for the dying except for religious rituals. (Maybe this is a fundamental need that religion fills.) And further, when those rites are performed -- through the eucharist, absolution, extreme unction at least in the Christian rites -- the dying person is grateful, and (in my sample of two) it seems to ease their passing.

It also occurred to me that western culture does, however, have rituals for the ones who didn't die. One of these is "counselling", a word I hate not just because of its Scientological overtones but also its semantic connection with "advice". I have been offered counselling by the hospital and by palliative care services. I refused both times and wondered why my refusal was so instinctual and certain. And for the record, I'm not at all averse to psychotherapy.

Here's my theory that applies only to me. I wanted to know how it resonates with others.

When people who are important in your life take some time to die, that allows you some time to get used to the idea and feel natural wondering about death and what happens during and after. Death becomes as visible and quotidian as life, with which it is of course naturally and inevitably bound in this binary universe. You can talk about a will and a funeral while making porridge in the morning, quite naturally. It's more normal to be speculating about the afterlife than to be telling someone how much you'll miss them.

When you respect and love someone, their death is as meaningful to you as their life. The extent of their importance is the measure of the grief and loss you experience, and the awe-ful inevitability and real-ness of what has happened, that you can never go back to "before". There are many ways to honour that importance -- and the gravity and majesty of death -- and one way is to experience it fully, to sustain the loss, to take the blow. If the cost is sleepless nights, sharp pain, then so be it. I will stay with it until time does its thing. I don't want counselling or sedation to cast a shadow. I'm OK with feeling that blaze till it dies away.

If this sounds like "be there and confront", it's not at all. It's way more engaged and participatory. It's also fearful.

Brave words, eh? It was how I felt and still do with respect to my two exasperating, quirky, stubborn beloveds. But then again -- if the one who died was a 16-year old, or a baby, or a partner who just fell down dead too early in life, how would I feel? I'm pretty sure I'd be ready for "counselling" then.

I think the difference is the slower onset of death which enabled me to prepare myself, to say and do everything I could. And in the presence of death, amazing things can be said with total honesty. There are no secrets -- except for what happens next.

Do others feel the same way?

Regarding what happens next, thanks to both modern resuscitation techniques and the internet, there is compelling evidence from people who've had near-death experiences (NDEs) about both dying itself and what happens afterwards.

They are informative, inspirational, comforting, sometimes funny, wonderful, cautionary and reassuring. A minority of people have bad experiences. Sometimes even those can turn into positive experiences during the course of the NDE itself.

I recommend the following sites, although there are many more. There's nothing to join and you don't need to spend any money at all to educate yourself. And there are loads of books available in used bookstores and libraries too.

www.iands.org/ This is a 30-plus-year-old nonprofit that was formed to provide support for people who've had near-death experiences, which can be both life-altering and hard to adjust to, as well as hard to share with others who can't understand what the NDEr (near-death experiencer) has been through.

There are meetings held in many states, although most states only have one or two meetings. I've been to some in my area; they are low-key, without proselytizing, dogma or any efforts to get you to buy or sign up for anything (other than an email list to be notified about upcoming meetings).

Some areas have big meetings (like Chicago and Seattle). In my area, 20-50 people is about normal.

They also have an annual conference that is held wherever someone has the energy to organize it. There are speakers, people who present research papers, panel discussions, etc. I went to one in San Diego and it was pleasant.

http://near-death.com/

http://www.nderf.org/ This site has near-death experience accounts in 23 languages! Some of them have been translated into English, sometimes well, sometimes crudely. Some accounts are long, articulate and inspiring. Some are very short and simple.

I find this information deeply comforting as well as wonderfully thought-provoking and inspiring. I hope that you find solace in your own explorations and contemplation.