paradox
ab intra silentio vera
As per the movie Fried Green Tomatoes, with regard to the tasty plate of ribs, "The secret is in the sauce." :wink2:
Making "L. Ron Hubbard well thought of."
- Thread starter Veda
- Start date
As per the movie Fried Green Tomatoes, with regard to the tasty plate of ribs, "The secret is in the sauce." :wink2:
cayce-case-um
Patron with Honors
How to make LRH well thought of?
Produce one true clear as defined in Book 1.
Produce one true OT who can be observed being knowingly and willingly at cause over life, thought, matter, energy, space, and time.
Provide one technological innovation that is brought to us from Marcab and is clearly beyond the ken of modern homo sapiens.
Provide evidence of residual radiation from the H-bombs at Las Palmas and Hawaii. (Couple with that proof that the great extinction 65 M years ago -- the K-T event -- managed to wipe out all large mammals and dinosaurs, but somehow left intact the humans that were here 75 M years ago).
Provide proof that the e-meter measures mental mass as opposed to electrical muscular activity / resistance.
Provide proof of exteriorization with full perceptics.
Provide documented proof of accurate past-life recall that meets the standards of credibility demanded by science and social science standards (hey, if you can't even meet "wog" standards ...).
Make testable and falsifiable predictions and then test and confirm them or falsify them.
Explain how supposedly enlightened organizational technology resulted in the abuse of people and destruction of their potential and freedom under people like DM.
Explain why LRH had slim to nil understanding of radiation, relativity, the speed of light, conditions on Venus and Mars, the Van Allen Belt, and many other well known scientific phenomena -- after all, if Xenu got us here in 6-8 weeks from so far away, there must have been a technology to do that faster than light or wormhole or other travel. Show just that one technology and the world will be pounding down the doors to Scn.
Show statistically through independently verified studies that Scientologists have fewer diseases, illnesses, addictions, longer life spans, fewer divorces, higher IQs, and so forth than non-Scientologists -- show a statistically significant, undeniable difference. Should be easy to show now after all these decades.
Explain why a clear and OT himself, LRH was a psychological wreck at his death and was on psych drugs. (Okay, I'll bite -- was he set up, imprisoned, forced on drugs, and then murdered? I've heard some people say that he was.)
Explain how some of the "tech" produces good results (as do many forms of counseling) -- but that some of the LRH wisdom is way off base (like his all about radiation utter nonsense -- he must have gone by some big MUs in that class -- and how does one reconcile LRH fallability with LRH infallibility.
Have the church disavow the false biographies of LRH long promoted by the church, admit his flaws, and separate the wheat from the chaff -- admit that he was wrong on some stuff but give him credit where credit was due. He did after all take a vigorous run at a whole new way to approach religion.
To be well thought of, it is helpful to put one's money where one's mouth is.
Produce one true clear as defined in Book 1.
Produce one true OT who can be observed being knowingly and willingly at cause over life, thought, matter, energy, space, and time.
Provide one technological innovation that is brought to us from Marcab and is clearly beyond the ken of modern homo sapiens.
Provide evidence of residual radiation from the H-bombs at Las Palmas and Hawaii. (Couple with that proof that the great extinction 65 M years ago -- the K-T event -- managed to wipe out all large mammals and dinosaurs, but somehow left intact the humans that were here 75 M years ago).
Provide proof that the e-meter measures mental mass as opposed to electrical muscular activity / resistance.
Provide proof of exteriorization with full perceptics.
Provide documented proof of accurate past-life recall that meets the standards of credibility demanded by science and social science standards (hey, if you can't even meet "wog" standards ...).
Make testable and falsifiable predictions and then test and confirm them or falsify them.
Explain how supposedly enlightened organizational technology resulted in the abuse of people and destruction of their potential and freedom under people like DM.
Explain why LRH had slim to nil understanding of radiation, relativity, the speed of light, conditions on Venus and Mars, the Van Allen Belt, and many other well known scientific phenomena -- after all, if Xenu got us here in 6-8 weeks from so far away, there must have been a technology to do that faster than light or wormhole or other travel. Show just that one technology and the world will be pounding down the doors to Scn.
Show statistically through independently verified studies that Scientologists have fewer diseases, illnesses, addictions, longer life spans, fewer divorces, higher IQs, and so forth than non-Scientologists -- show a statistically significant, undeniable difference. Should be easy to show now after all these decades.
Explain why a clear and OT himself, LRH was a psychological wreck at his death and was on psych drugs. (Okay, I'll bite -- was he set up, imprisoned, forced on drugs, and then murdered? I've heard some people say that he was.)
Explain how some of the "tech" produces good results (as do many forms of counseling) -- but that some of the LRH wisdom is way off base (like his all about radiation utter nonsense -- he must have gone by some big MUs in that class -- and how does one reconcile LRH fallability with LRH infallibility.
Have the church disavow the false biographies of LRH long promoted by the church, admit his flaws, and separate the wheat from the chaff -- admit that he was wrong on some stuff but give him credit where credit was due. He did after all take a vigorous run at a whole new way to approach religion.
To be well thought of, it is helpful to put one's money where one's mouth is.
G
Gottabrain
Guest
AngeloV
Gold Meritorious Patron
This is great!
The only thing LRH can be made well thought of is a con man. That is very easy to do.
anonomog
Gold Meritorious Patron
Awesome post.
But what about Hubbard, the man?
Did Hubbard do anything that would be regarded as honourable, noble of spirit or worth emulating?
It doesn't have to be rescuing 25 babies from a hospital fire after an earthquake barefoot, but also not vague "offered advice during auditing when he didn't have to".
It could be an act of kindness that would have cost him something personally be it time, money (that would be missed/that was not easy to re-earn), loss of face, humilty, effort. Have no idea where I saw it but some spokesman mentioned Miscavige rescued a sparrow.
So what is Hubbard's sparrow moment.I have limited tolerance for the proHubbard sites so my view is undeniably biased.
This is someone who started a religion, there must be something out there? Anyone?
I would be genuinely interested to find out.
Caliwog
Patron Meritorious
Let's see...
He kidnapped his daughter Alexis. I assume that was so they could spend more time together.
He denied the existence of Alexis' mother, Sarah. I assume that was to make his third wife feel better.
He was a loving and devoted husband to his third wife, Mary Sue, at least until he let her take the fall for him and go to jail for Operation Snow White, while he bravely went into hiding.
During World War II, he fired on an island belonging to Mexico, which did *not* declare war on us, proving the strength of our bond with our neighbors to the south. (Some say he didn't realize the island was Mexican territory, but I don't believe it.)
And, of course, he loved his followers so much that he discovered The Tech for them, and all he asked was that they prioritized the purchase of said technology over their lives, their loves, and their families.
What a guy!
anonomog
Gold Meritorious Patron
He also wrote a wonderfully sensitive letter to Alexis, how could I forget?
What a guy indeed! Hip, hip..
cayce-case-um
Patron with Honors
Very interesting posts above.
One thing I wanted to correct from where I wrote "Provide evidence of residual radiation from the H-bombs at Las Palmas and Hawaii. (Couple with that proof that the great extinction 65 M years ago -- the K-T event -- managed to wipe out all large mammals and dinosaurs, but somehow left intact the humans that were here 75 M years ago)." is ...
75 M years ago, there were no large mammals. Mammals as a group starting developing after the K-T extinction some 65 M years ago (before that there were apparently small rodent-like mammals). Mammals went on the rise because the K-T event wiped out the dinosaurs and created an ecological opportunity for mammals to proliferate -- and become bigger -- without the big predator dinosaurs around. The first primitive primates appeared somewhere in that range -- 65 M years ago or more recently.
This raises an interesting problem. The Xenu event brought us/other thetans here 10 M years before even primitive primates arose, and 70 M years before the first hominids arose (about 2-5 M years ago). So where did all the disembodied thetans go and what did they do for 70 M years waiting for humans to arise (and the first humans are even more recent -- ~1.8 M years ago at oldest). Were we all the critters in History of Man for 70 M years?
Not according to LRH. He said that 75 M years ago all 76 planets of Xenu's empire were overpopulated, including Teegeeack (Earth), and that the overpopulated planets had an average of "250 billion or so per planet -- "178 billion on average..."
Setting aside the fact that it makes no sense to have an "average" that is 72 billion less than the norm, there are other problems. LRH (in the Incident II story) is clearly talking about _people_ existing 70 M years before any evidence that hominids first existed ("He caused people to be brought to Teegeeack ...").
This is also a problem because LRH says elsewhere that science will confirm or come to confirm all the facts brought to light by Scn. Science does not do so.
And Xenu? What an idiot. If the confederation had tax systems they had budgets. If they had budgets they had to be mindful of spending. So why ship billions of people from the other 75 planets and go to all that trouble when you could have just fired them all into the nearest star and saved trillions of dollars? (Now that _would_ have been hell!) After all, stars are just big ongoing "H bombs" -- no need to wreck a perfectly good planet.
So another way Hubbard could be well thought of would be if his "discoveries" actually matched up to scientific scrutiny. (As to other parts of his life / personality, he was clearly pretty flawed. He's probably in good (or bad) company on that. Einstein gave up his first daughter. Newton was by all reports a major jerk, and so on. Kennedy and MLK were huge womanizers.
So one way to approach LRH would be to say (a) his biography needs to be made honest -- the myth is already dead, the truth is out there; (b) take what does work, find out why it works, and use the underlying principles of why it works; (c) label the rest as religious belief and let people believe what they want -- they will anyway.
Therefore according to LRH, Earth had 178 b
One thing I wanted to correct from where I wrote "Provide evidence of residual radiation from the H-bombs at Las Palmas and Hawaii. (Couple with that proof that the great extinction 65 M years ago -- the K-T event -- managed to wipe out all large mammals and dinosaurs, but somehow left intact the humans that were here 75 M years ago)." is ...
75 M years ago, there were no large mammals. Mammals as a group starting developing after the K-T extinction some 65 M years ago (before that there were apparently small rodent-like mammals). Mammals went on the rise because the K-T event wiped out the dinosaurs and created an ecological opportunity for mammals to proliferate -- and become bigger -- without the big predator dinosaurs around. The first primitive primates appeared somewhere in that range -- 65 M years ago or more recently.
This raises an interesting problem. The Xenu event brought us/other thetans here 10 M years before even primitive primates arose, and 70 M years before the first hominids arose (about 2-5 M years ago). So where did all the disembodied thetans go and what did they do for 70 M years waiting for humans to arise (and the first humans are even more recent -- ~1.8 M years ago at oldest). Were we all the critters in History of Man for 70 M years?
Not according to LRH. He said that 75 M years ago all 76 planets of Xenu's empire were overpopulated, including Teegeeack (Earth), and that the overpopulated planets had an average of "250 billion or so per planet -- "178 billion on average..."
Setting aside the fact that it makes no sense to have an "average" that is 72 billion less than the norm, there are other problems. LRH (in the Incident II story) is clearly talking about _people_ existing 70 M years before any evidence that hominids first existed ("He caused people to be brought to Teegeeack ...").
This is also a problem because LRH says elsewhere that science will confirm or come to confirm all the facts brought to light by Scn. Science does not do so.
And Xenu? What an idiot. If the confederation had tax systems they had budgets. If they had budgets they had to be mindful of spending. So why ship billions of people from the other 75 planets and go to all that trouble when you could have just fired them all into the nearest star and saved trillions of dollars? (Now that _would_ have been hell!) After all, stars are just big ongoing "H bombs" -- no need to wreck a perfectly good planet.
So another way Hubbard could be well thought of would be if his "discoveries" actually matched up to scientific scrutiny. (As to other parts of his life / personality, he was clearly pretty flawed. He's probably in good (or bad) company on that. Einstein gave up his first daughter. Newton was by all reports a major jerk, and so on. Kennedy and MLK were huge womanizers.
So one way to approach LRH would be to say (a) his biography needs to be made honest -- the myth is already dead, the truth is out there; (b) take what does work, find out why it works, and use the underlying principles of why it works; (c) label the rest as religious belief and let people believe what they want -- they will anyway.
Therefore according to LRH, Earth had 178 b
kate8024
-deleted-
I think that keeping LRH well thought of is in fact important to the CoS if for no other reason than on half of their books L. Ron Hubbard is in larger print than the title of the book. IMHO they should work to write updated books _without_ LRH mentioned on the cover because this helps ensure that both LRH and CoS stand on their own merits rather than being so intertwined forever.
Panda Termint
Cabal Of One
Is that you Dave? :confused2: (just kidding!) 
