What's new

Scientology Ethics

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
The following is an excerpt from the memoirs of Dennis Stephens who was in Dianetics and Scientology from the very beginning. This is from a transcript of a recording. You can find the transcript of the full memoirs here: http://www.antology.info/index-8.html. Thanks to Ant Phillips for making this available.

This excerpt is talking about the mid 1960s:



"The next momentous thing that happened roundabout that time was the arrival of the ethics policies. That
hit all the orgs all over the world by storm. Ron had suddenly decided on this subject of ethics. And I was
most put out by it.


I read through it very, very carefully. It put my hackles up. It didn't feel right. It didn't
smell right. And I used to go around and say that... made myself most unpopular. People thought I was
being most disloyal.... that no good will come of this. No good will come of this ethics. And to me it was
...never was anything else but a copout. And it wasn't so... I never spotted the flaw in the ethics until many
years later.


But the flaw of Ron's ethics policies was very simple... it was a very simple flaw. The ethics
policies were based on the premise... based on a known Scientology fact that all those who commit overt
acts against Scientology don't make case gains. And that is a technical datum. It's a truism. It's absolutely,
technically true. There's no doubt about that. There is no shred of doubt about the truth of that. But one
cannot deduce from that proposition that all those who don't make case gains are committing overt acts
against Scientology. And this was the proposition that Ron was putting forward.


This is why it was a copout, you see. The logic of it is false I mean, you can't say just because all crows are birds.... you can't deduce
from the fact that all crows are birds that therefore all birds are crows anymore than you can deduce from
the fact that all those who overt against Scientology don't make case gain. You can't deduce from that at all
those who don't make case gains are overting against Scientology, you see. I mean, it's a deduction that will
put you... will flunk you and put you to the bottom of the class of even the most elementary course in logic.



Yet to Ron, and the whole Scientology world it seemed to... at least those who agreed with the ethics
policies seemed to fall for this little bit of slippy logic. Of course, they wanted to agree with it, you see.
Everyone was looking for a reason why tech was failing. They needed a reason why and here was the
perfect reason why. Ethics. Cases aren't getting better because they're overting against Scientology. So if
we can get off our lines all those who are overting against Scientology we'll all start to get better.... so the
reasoning went... the slippy logic.



It's a lie, you see... because it's simply...it's not a valid logical deduction.




But why weren't the... why weren't the cases getting better? Well, I mentioned that earlier. Ron had broken
his teeth on the subject of goals packages. He was determined to crack it and it cracked him. The cases
weren't getting better on goals auditing... auditing goals and goals packages was not getting the gains that
it should've done.


Preclears were getting worse and the datum there, as I've already given is, that when you
audit goals packages, you either audit it exactly right or you kill the preclear and he wasn't auditing it
exactly right so the preclears were worsening. He wasn't getting the gains and he skidded off sideways and
slid into this peculiar thing called ethics and tore the whole Scientology field apart... with ethics. It was ill‐
conceived, it was a mistake, it was a technical flub but it was necessary.


It was needed... everyone needed it, you see. The whole organization needed it because they couldn't see why they weren't getting the
results. Fascinating. I mean, within three months of the release of the ethics policies in Scientology in the
mid‐1960s, the vast majority of the old‐timers in Scientology had simply quit. Had simply cut lines to the
organi... central organization. Horner was on record as saying that, I think Sci... I think Ron's a decent guy
and Scientology is a marvelous subject but their ethics scare the hell out of me. That's almost a direct quote
of Horner. He quit.


Of course, it was set up as a no‐win situation. If you opposed the ethics, you were
obviously an ethics risk. That meant you were overting against Scientology, you see. It was a no‐win
situation. You couldn't oppose the ethics without becoming an ethics risk. It was in the ethics policies. It
said so, you see. It was a Catch‐22. It was a Catch‐22 situation.


You see, right from the earliest days in Scientology every student has to go through this barrier and, it was always people willing to say in
Scientology and Dianetics and what have you, that the fault lies in the preclear.... that if we can't crack the
preclears case then it's not our fault, it's to do with him. People were always willing to put the responsibility
over onto the preclear and that will not hold.


You cannot do that with a psychotherapy. Once you come
along and say, we've got a subject which cracks the mind... will handle it.... will solve the mind, you can't
adopt this philosophy, well, if we can't crack the mind, it's not our fault. It's always our fault if we can't
crack it, you see. Got to take total responsibility for your failures.


You've got to look at your failures and understand your failures and understand why you're failing and go in and do something different... figure
out how to do it right. You've got no excuse, you see. So the.... there's no such thing as a copout. You can't
have a copout... you need to have a copout. And the ethics was the copout in Scientology. Because they
never got... Ron never got this research are right on the subject of... on the subject of goals. He was killing
people. That was the simple truth of the matter. He was killing himself too.


In his earlier years, he would never have fallen for anything as stupid as ethics. He was too smart a bloke. He was too far up tone. But
he'd driven himself down tone scale so far with his auditing on goals it was killing him too... and he got
himself... that... eventually he got... he got so badly off case wise that he got into ethics.


You could put it that way if you want to, you know. That's... things got so bad, he got into ethics... ethics policies. I didn't, as
I said, I didn't grasp all this at the time but I knew, once I read those ethics policies, I knew that the days
were numbered for me and the organization... that... there couldn't... there was no real future for me in
such an organization... this jangled. Lights were burning or flickering in my mind that there is something
wrong here. There's something terribly wrong here. No good will come of this. I said so to Ron. No good will
come of this. No good will come of it. Let's get off it before we tear the whole bloody place apart."
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
I suppose if one wanted to look a little deeper one could also find that this is an good example of inadequately inspected dictates from an self appointed authority, layered over by misdirection of apparent but similarly postulated proofs. A craft of a prevaricator. Sometimes called layering it on. :yes:
 

Gib

Crusader
The following is an excerpt from the memoirs of Dennis Stephens who was in Dianetics and Scientology from the very beginning. This is from a transcript of a recording. You can find the transcript of the full memoirs here: http://www.antology.info/index-8.html. Thanks to Ant Phillips for making this available.

This excerpt is talking about the mid 1960s:



"The next momentous thing that happened roundabout that time was the arrival of the ethics policies. That
hit all the orgs all over the world by storm. Ron had suddenly decided on this subject of ethics. And I was
most put out by it.


I read through it very, very carefully. It put my hackles up. It didn't feel right. It didn't
smell right. And I used to go around and say that... made myself most unpopular. People thought I was
being most disloyal.... that no good will come of this. No good will come of this ethics. And to me it was
...never was anything else but a copout. And it wasn't so... I never spotted the flaw in the ethics until many
years later.


But the flaw of Ron's ethics policies was very simple... it was a very simple flaw. The ethics
policies were based on the premise... based on a known Scientology fact that all those who commit overt
acts against Scientology don't make case gains
. And that is a technical datum. It's a truism. It's absolutely,
technically true. There's no doubt about that. There is no shred of doubt about the truth of that. But one
cannot deduce from that proposition that all those who don't make case gains are committing overt acts
against Scientology. And this was the proposition that Ron was putting forward.

What I don't understand in what overts are a person committing scientology?

I mean, a new person comes in and gets some auditing, like life repair or Book 1, and says it didn't do anything for me, and leaves. What are the overts?
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
What I don't understand in what overts are a person committing scientology?

I mean, a new person comes in and gets some auditing, like life repair or Book 1, and says it didn't do anything for me, and leaves. What are the overts?

The point he is making is that while there is a 'true' tech datum that a pc who commits overts against Scientology doesn't have case gain in auditing, this does not generally apply to every pc who doesn't have case gain.
 

Gib

Crusader
The point he is making is that while there is a 'true' tech datum that a pc who commits overts against Scientology doesn't have case gain in auditing, this does not generally apply to every pc who doesn't have case gain.

I understand it doesn't apply to every case.

But in some cases, what overts are we talking about being committed against scientology.

Is being critical or stating it doesn't work, one of the possible overts committed against scientology?
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
What I don't understand in what overts are a person committing scientology?

I mean, a new person comes in and gets some auditing, like life repair or Book 1, and says it didn't do anything for me, and leaves. What are the overts?

just some thoughts on this

Questioning or 'calling out' a conman's con is OVERT (FULLY exposing action, not hidden) so the conman surreptitiously manipulates (sophistry) the original dangerous (to him) meaning until it doesn't exist and therefore it becomes something you have done WRONG.....you are wrong... and therefore he must be right. Light makes blindness, truth is prevarication, freedom is slavery,you are Naught, Hubbard is Source(all) &(only one) that kind of stuff leading eventually to Truth doesn't exist only lies (the cons) do.
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
I understand it doesn't apply to every case.

But in some cases, what overts are we talking about being committed against scientology.

Is being critical or stating it doesn't work, one of the possible overts committed against scientology?

From my perspective, there is no Book of Overts as a reference.

Self-determined would be what you (or your case) considers to be an overt.

Less self-determined would be what reads on an e-meter as an overt.

Other-determined (and totally fucked up) would be what the church says is an overt.

That's my take on it.
 

Gib

Crusader
From my perspective, there is no Book of Overts as a reference.

Self-determined would be what you (or your case) considers to be an overt.

Less self-determined would be what reads on an e-meter as an overt.

Other-determined (and totally fucked up) would be what the church says is an overt.

That's my take on it.

self deterimined in my view means I'm determining my actions, my goals in life, not somebody else.

less self determined means in my eyes that somebody else is determing my actions.

I have no idea what an e-meter would have to do with this, self determinism?
 

Boojuum

Silver Meritorious Patron
Thanks for posting the Dennis Stephens quote. I hadn't seen it before. I think he's right. I mean it's corroborated by other guys who were around then and seems correct. I wasn't around Scientology in the mid-60's.

My observation is that since the 60's, Scientologists receive less auditing and a great deal more ethics handlings. In the early 80's O/W write-ups and confessionals and admin scales seemed to replace auditing. Once the price of auditing hit ~$4,000 for an intensive, the only folks who could afford auditing were either rich or extremely focused and not on staff. Actions such as "Severe Reality Adjustment" or Comm Ev's or B of I's or condition assignments with huge amends projects ALL FOCUS ON HOW WRONG THE INDIVIDUAL IS. I've seen the effects on staff guys spun in on the smallest overts. This is a result of doing lots of O/W write-ups and getting lots of confessionals and lots of condition assignments.

The underlying justification is that with the overts off an area, you can now confront it and handle it and are less likely to pull in motivators (bad karma).

Staff members live by their "condition". There was one PL that suggested that hourly condition assignments were perfectly fine. One is therefore continually assessing how ethical he is. Every time the condition moves into Danger, you get to do an O/W handling. When the stats eventually crash, and I think that happens in every area, you get to do a liability formula and do another O/W writeup but also have to ask others for permission to be in the group again. Again, you get to focus on how wrong you are.

LRH rigged the system so that if you weren't doing fantastic, you're wrong and incapable and bad. On the flip side, if you're doing well, Scientology is working. It's not science, it's mind control, it's manipulative.
 

Gib

Crusader
Thanks for posting the Dennis Stephens quote. I hadn't seen it before. I think he's right. I mean it's corroborated by other guys who were around then and seems correct. I wasn't around Scientology in the mid-60's.

My observation is that since the 60's, Scientologists receive less auditing and a great deal more ethics handlings. In the early 80's O/W write-ups and confessionals and admin scales seemed to replace auditing. Once the price of auditing hit ~$4,000 for an intensive, the only folks who could afford auditing were either rich or extremely focused and not on staff. Actions such as "Severe Reality Adjustment" or Comm Ev's or B of I's or condition assignments with huge amends projects ALL FOCUS ON HOW WRONG THE INDIVIDUAL IS. I've seen the effects on staff guys spun in on the smallest overts. This is a result of doing lots of O/W write-ups and getting lots of confessionals and lots of condition assignments.

The underlying justification is that with the overts off an area, you can now confront it and handle it and are less likely to pull in motivators (bad karma).

Staff members live by their "condition". There was one PL that suggested that hourly condition assignments were perfectly fine. One is therefore continually assessing how ethical he is. Every time the condition moves into Danger, you get to do an O/W handling. When the stats eventually crash, and I think that happens in every area, you get to do a liability formula and do another O/W writeup but also have to ask others for permission to be in the group again. Again, you get to focus on how wrong you are.

LRH rigged the system so that if you weren't doing fantastic, you're wrong and incapable and bad. On the flip side, if you're doing well, Scientology is working. It's not science, it's mind control, it's manipulative.

every stat in an org or mission is dependent on

new customers coming in.

The purpose of marketing was to drive in more customers than the org could waste.

This is an endless "infocommercial"

Stop the infocommercial marketing, the stats drop.

why, the product is an overt product,

otherwise there would be endless demand for the product.

and not endless sales pitches and PR campaigns.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
From my perspective, there is no Book of Overts as a reference.

Self-determined would be what you (or your case) considers to be an overt.

Less self-determined would be what reads on an e-meter as an overt.

Other-determined (and totally fucked up) would be what the church says is an overt.

That's my take on it.

Other determined is an overt?

So all the public that pay for training and auditing through big league sales tech rather than their own desire, all those people are other determined and they get no case gain. Well that's the vast majority! So now we have the real why. Staff use LRH policy to get new cult members and in so doing only recruit people who can not have any case gain. It's not the tech at fault it's the admin.

I don't agree that the teck works, but I do agree that manipulating people into buying services can only lead to refunds.
 

Out-Ethics

Patron Meritorious
Thank F.Bullbait. Nice insight into Hubbard's Ethics policies. It's the continuing problem that Hubbard had since the release of Dianetics. There just enough truth to attract people but attaining his states of clear and OT never really existed and that is what Hubbard had to solve. From my readings of Hubbard it looks very much like he went insane trying to come up with answers for this since his earlier books from Dianetics to Scientology in the 50s claimed all sorts of spiritual freedom which never happened. In the 60s it looked apparent that his two choices were to either give up Dianetics/Scientology or create a new state were he had absolute power. His policies of Ethics came just prior to the Sea Org because SO and Ethics go hand-in-hand. Once this was created anybody with any disagreement with Hubbard or Scientology were to be handled by Ethics. And any Scientology Org or Mission that were off the rails were handled by the SO. If there were a PC who did not make case gain then of course they have overts and until they sort this out in Ethics no way they go "up the bridge". It didn't matter what the overts were as this has always been open-ended but it completely absolved Scientology of ever being wrong. Ethics policies created a "God - Hubbard", a "heaven - bridge to freedom" and a "hell - overts against Scientology". Going up the bridge as I now see it was never spiritual freedom as Hubbard never had any real answers but a way to have mind-control in a group leading to a loyal following and that loyal following gives cash flow or time or both. Hubbard wanted power, money and fame and the Ethics policies that he wrote helped to cement this because without Ethics and the SO to enforce this Scientology would have fallen apart back in the 60s. Never doubt his mad genius because it worked!
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
self deterimined in my view means I'm determining my actions, my goals in life, not somebody else.

less self determined means in my eyes that somebody else is determing my actions.

I have no idea what an e-meter would have to do with this, self determinism?

Other determined is an overt?

So all the public that pay for training and auditing through big league sales tech rather than their own desire, all those people are other determined and they get no case gain. Well that's the vast majority! So now we have the real why. Staff use LRH policy to get new cult members and in so doing only recruit people who can not have any case gain. It's not the tech at fault it's the admin.

I don't agree that the teck works, but I do agree that manipulating people into buying services can only lead to refunds.


Sorry for confusing the issue. The e-meter line was an unnecessary complication. An overt on our communication line, if you will.

In his memoirs, Dennis took a narrow tech-minded line on the why of Scientology Ethics. I am not sure he understood the more insidious control mechanism involved here. He simply didn't like effects of the new Ethics policies and left.

My take on the idea no-case-gain because of committing overts on Scientology is this: if you feel you committed overts on Scientology and didn't handle that first in auditing, the rest of the auditing would be fruitless because your ruds would not be in. You would not be in-session. Your ethics are out.

As to my statements about self-determinism and other-determinism, it is really just a practical matter of what indicates in your case and what does not.

Suppose that I were a cannibal and nabbed LRH, stuck him in a pot and had him for breakfast. I then entered an Org and got Life Repair auditing. I would get case gain because, from my perspective, I committed no overt. The auditor and the rest of the people in the Org would probably consider eating LRH an overt but for me, it was just breakfast.

I could be educated to see that eating the Savior of the Cosmos (or whatever) is an overt, If I subsequently withheld that I ate LRH, that would certainly impact my relationship with the auditor and I would be out-ruds.

Hopefully this helps.
 

Out-Ethics

Patron Meritorious
In his memoirs, Dennis took a narrow tech-minded line on the why of Scientology Ethics. I am not sure he understood the more insidious control mechanism involved here. He simply didn't like effects of the new Ethics policies and left.

Insidious control mechanism describes this well. It gets drilled into Scientologists that is no hope to get up the bridge if you have overts and withholds. Once you are in and convinced Hubbard has the answers to life you willingly give up all your O/Ws this lifetime and the ones you imagine before. What to me is the most insidious are the thoughts you have but not actually ever committing an overt. An auditor or E/O could bang on that to the point it will drive you insane. Insane because you get to the point where you look for any overt that will satisfy the one asking on the other side of the meter. And this will drive a person to block any bad thoughts out because they are far worse than the actual overts. I'm convinced that O/W write-ups or sec-checking or any form of pulling O/Ws that this is one of the most dangerous part of Hubbard's technology. It's gaining mind control over all your actions from the time you wake up in the morning to when you go to bed. We can debate whether there are psychosomatic illnesses but I do know that O/W pulling stress out people and when you get stressed you don't sleep well, eat well and your attention is not on life in front of you. The Ethics of Hubbard cause people to stress out to the point where they could get sick or have accidents or become unable to perform in life. There is nothing worse than thinking Hubbard is right and you are wrong and somehow you need to get your ethics in. I cannot think of a worse hell than that. That is the insanity of this hell. Welcome to mankind greatest friend! Perhaps Dennis did see that.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

Ethics, also known as philosophical ethics, ethical theory, moral theory, and moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending and recommending concepts of right and wrong conduct, often addressing disputes of moral diversity.[1] The term comes from the Greek word ethos, which means "character". The superfield within philosophy known as Axiology includes both ethics and Aesthetics and is unified by each sub-branch's concern with value. Philosophical ethics investigates what is the best way for humans to live, and what kinds of actions are right or wrong in particular circumstances. Ethics may be divided into four major areas of study:[1]

Meta-ethics, about the theoretical meaning and reference of moral propositions and how their truth values (if any) may be determined;
Normative ethics, about the practical means of determining a moral course of action;
Applied ethics draws upon ethical theory in order to ask what a person is obligated to do in some very specific situation, or within some particular domain of action (such as business);
Descriptive ethics, also known as comparative ethics, is the study of people's beliefs about morality;

Ethics seeks to resolve questions dealing with human morality—concepts such as good and evil, right and wrong, virtue and vice, justice and crime.
 

Gib

Crusader
Sorry for confusing the issue. The e-meter line was an unnecessary complication. An overt on our communication line, if you will.

In his memoirs, Dennis took a narrow tech-minded line on the why of Scientology Ethics. I am not sure he understood the more insidious control mechanism involved here. He simply didn't like effects of the new Ethics policies and left.

My take on the idea no-case-gain because of committing overts on Scientology is this: if you feel you committed overts on Scientology and didn't handle that first in auditing, the rest of the auditing would be fruitless because your ruds would not be in. You would not be in-session. Your ethics are out.

As to my statements about self-determinism and other-determinism, it is really just a practical matter of what indicates in your case and what does not.

Suppose that I were a cannibal and nabbed LRH, stuck him in a pot and had him for breakfast. I then entered an Org and got Life Repair auditing. I would get case gain because, from my perspective, I committed no overt. The auditor and the rest of the people in the Org would probably consider eating LRH an overt but for me, it was just breakfast.

I could be educated to see that eating the Savior of the Cosmos (or whatever) is an overt, If I subsequently withheld that I ate LRH, that would certainly impact my relationship with the auditor and I would be out-ruds.

Hopefully this helps.

I understand what you are saying, because I was indoctrinated with scientology as well.

but consider this, per my highlighted above area

a person walks into a scientology org or mission , and says I read dianetics and would like to get some auditing. The person buys some auditing, a 5 hour block. Or maybe the person is sold into doing a scientology life repair

The person gets the auditing and doesn't want to continue.

Now what?
 

Out-Ethics

Patron Meritorious
I understand what you are saying, because I was indoctrinated with scientology as well.

but consider this, per my highlighted above area

a person walks into a scientology org or mission , and says I read dianetics and would like to get some auditing. The person buys some auditing, a 5 hour block. Or maybe the person is sold into doing a scientology life repair

The person gets the auditing and doesn't want to continue.

Now what?

Hey Gib. I know you are asking F.Bullbait but I think the main answer is did the auditing give the person the desired result he was looking for? All Scientology and Dianetic auditing do not produced the end result of clear and OT. On this board for most this is a given. So the question is what result does auditing give? My answer is a person could benefit from auditing but at best without all the BS that a PC gets banged with is that it is a very inconsistent. A PC could have O/Ws and he might not want to continue with auditing, he might also look at the auditing as it just plain didn't help him and why on earth should he spend more for results he was promised but did not get. The last part doesn't mean that the PC had O/W but it could be for various reasons such as the tech didn't work, bad auditor, wrong process etc. Of course any Scientology org would dismiss any responsibility that Hubbard or the tech is ever at fault.
 

F.Bullbait

Oh, a wise guy,eh?
I understand what you are saying, because I was indoctrinated with scientology as well.

but consider this, per my highlighted above area

a person walks into a scientology org or mission , and says I read dianetics and would like to get some auditing. The person buys some auditing, a 5 hour block. Or maybe the person is sold into doing a scientology life repair

The person gets the auditing and doesn't want to continue.

Now what?

I guess I'm a bit dense and don't understand what you are driving at.

I don't suppose things have changed much over the years.

In the claustrophobic KSW world of one-size-fits-all processing and the-only-route-out think, no one just leaves. You are routed, handled and squeezed of your $.

Obviously I don't have to tell you that.
 

Gib

Crusader
I guess I'm a bit dense and don't understand what you are driving at.

I don't suppose things have changed much over the years.

In the claustrophobic KSW world of one-size-fits-all processing and the-only-route-out think, no one just leaves. You are routed, handled and squeezed of your $.

Obviously I don't have to tell you that.

you're the one that said:

My take on the idea no-case-gain because of committing overts on Scientology is this: if you feel you committed overts on Scientology and didn't handle that first in auditing, the rest of the auditing would be fruitless because your ruds would not be in. You would not be in-session. Your ethics are out.

so if a new person gets auditing, and doesn't get case gain,

how on earth could he have overts on scientology?

If a person is new, and doesn't know about scientology, how on earth can he have overts against scientology?
 
Top